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 No way to get engine to work

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Cosmic_Jumper
sonuvabug
zrx212
Snapy
8 posters
AuthorMessage
Snapy
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 5
Location : Switzerland
Points : 1867
Registration date : 2017-08-23

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PostSubject: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08, 2022 5:40 am

Hello community,
I apologize for my English, I'm not native English speaker.
There are few weeks I'm trying with a Mecatronic friend to overcome the problem that the engine isn't running anymore.
Sometimes it is possible to start, the engine idles a bit and badly then turns off. When the engine is idling and you try to accelerate, the engine stops.
EVERYTHING was checked! We tried also to change the motor control unit.
Sensors were checked by oscilloscope. The sensor on the left side between the engine and the frame seems not working regularly as the wave on the oscilloscope does shrink regularly, but who knows. To take off this sensor is a hardship, it seems we have to dismantle a lot to take it out. But what about the ignition pulse generator / pic-up 1-000-576-226? We are thinking to change also this part.
Reporting the top dead center and the lower on the left side and using a stroboscope lamp we realized that using the old motor control unit the ignition point is moving sometimes when you start the engine with spark plugs taken off. We realized also. that in this situation if you accelerate there are no sparks anymore.
Fuel pressure is also good and the injects seems to work properly.
It's a SW 400 2006 with 45000km kept in very good conditions.
We have also the original Honda SW repair manual.
I looked around a lot in the net without finding any suggestion. It seems this engine always run without problem.
Does anyone of you have a suggestion?
Many thanks and greetings from Switzerland
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
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Number of posts : 393
Age : 63
Location : Ocala, FL
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PostSubject: Re: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08, 2022 7:18 am

Hi, if you don't have a "MIL" malfunction light, is probably not an electrical issue?, maybe a fuel delivery issue, bad fuel pressure regulator (Bad regulator could cause a rich/lean condition), tank or fuel pump issue. Do a fuel flow and pressure test, remove injector make sure is spraying, etc. Check for bad vacuum hoses or leaks around throttle body.

Is this a sudden problem, has the scooter sat, etc.
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Snapy
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Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 5
Location : Switzerland
Points : 1867
Registration date : 2017-08-23

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PostSubject: Re: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08, 2022 9:19 am

@zrx212
Many Thanks for your reply.

Fuel pressure is 3 bar, injectors seems well spraying.
Fuel pressure regulator wasn't checked.
No MIL flashing or code.

In the last time I didn't ride the SW regularly. In winter if we have salt on the road I don't ride it. I usually let him sleep without starting the engine. After winter this time he didn't start well. The engine stopped and didn't want to come back, but tben suddenly the engine came back and I moved ride away to not make it stop again. The engine worked normally after. The SW stayed again some time. I wanted to start it, he coughed a bit started and died. No way to get it at live again.
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sonuvabug
Silver Wing Expert
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sonuvabug


Number of posts : 823
Location : Mid-Western Ontario Canada
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PostSubject: Re: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08, 2022 9:24 am

Welcome aboard the board Snapy.  Sorry to hear about your challenges with your scooter.

A few thoughts:
Is the battery strong enough?
What is the condition of the spark plug and spark plug wire?
Is the fuel/gas good after sitting?
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Snapy
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 5
Location : Switzerland
Points : 1867
Registration date : 2017-08-23

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PostSubject: Re: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 09, 2022 4:12 am

@ Sonuvabug
Fuel regulator checked and OK.
For all the work on it a big car battery was attached, so no way that there isn't enough power?
Spark plugs were not bad but we changed them. Resistance of spark wires checked and one substituted. Spark aren't very impressive with the stock spark coil, so we tried also an other one wich gives an very good spark.
Fuel is good.
Next step: change of pulser assy. cam (1-000-552-851) and ignition pulse generator / pic-up 1-000-576-226. Maybe someone has the data to check these components?
Many thanks and best regards
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Snapy
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 5
Location : Switzerland
Points : 1867
Registration date : 2017-08-23

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PostSubject: Re: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 10, 2022 2:34 am

Hello,
work in progress: pulser assy. cam (1-000-552-851) and ignition pulse generator / pic-up 1-000-576-226 were checked and seems OK.
NO IDEA WHAT TO DO now.
Any help from you?
Many thanks
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Cosmic_Jumper
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Cosmic_Jumper


Number of posts : 4250
Age : 79
Location : damn near Philadelphia, PA
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PostSubject: Re: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 10, 2022 9:09 am

It seems that all the components you have checked are okay. However what you haven’t mentioned is “fuel”. Fuel is known to deteriorate over time. Especially fuel containing ethanol: E10, E15, etc. So now drain the fuel tank -completely- and add some fuel system cleaner additive (Redex, etc) then refill with fresh fuel.

Clean/check the air filter. Rodents are known to enjoy nesting in there.

Also, when you are starting the bike have the throttle twisted to wide open. That’s a known technique for clearing a flooded engine, not that you have a flooded engine, and it also somehow alters the ECU programing map.
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kitchenman
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Number of posts : 14
Age : 83
Location : Westcliff SS0 9 UK
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Registration date : 2019-10-14

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PostSubject: Re: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 13, 2022 6:15 pm

Try running it with the fuel cap off, vent may be blocked
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Terry Smith
Touring Scooter Rider
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Terry Smith


Number of posts : 335
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Location : Auckland, New Zealand
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PostSubject: Re: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 13, 2022 8:10 pm

So the bike has gone from running nicely to not running over the storage time. It would be unlikely that a sensor has decided to fail while it was parked up, and as suggested that should generate a fault light. The suggestion about the air filter being blocked sounds possible. It might also be worthwhile loking at some other electrical interlocks specifically the sidestand switch (which can be bypassed for testing) and the tip-over switch mounted under the front cowl; both of those would cut the ignition, maybe there is a corroding connector that is intermittent. Lastly, check the vacuum hoses around the injection system are leak-tight.
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Snapy
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Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 5
Location : Switzerland
Points : 1867
Registration date : 2017-08-23

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PostSubject: Re: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 16, 2022 5:32 am

Many thanks for suggestions.

@ Cosmic_Jumper: fuel was added few months before and there is no alcohol in. But we will try also this option. Air filter is new and there is no obstruction. Trottle open was also tried.
@ Kitchenman: Fuel pressure is 3bar, injectors are working. So blocked ventilation should not be the problem, but we will try also this option.
@ Terry Smith: sparks are always there, so it should not be the side stand or the tip over switch? Vacuum hose are checked.

We will try a new ignition pulse generator.

Best regards from Switzerland
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smellybeard
Maxi-Scooter Rider
Maxi-Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 131
Location : Ireland
Points : 923
Registration date : 2020-08-11

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PostSubject: Re: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 19, 2022 7:34 pm

If the fuel is there and the spark is there and it doesn't run, all I can think of is that they're not there at the same time.

After cranking for a while, is there a smell of fuel? Is the fuel coming out unburnt?
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1Wingman1
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1Wingman1


Number of posts : 95
Age : 80
Location : Jacksonville, Florida
Points : 3639
Registration date : 2013-01-19

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PostSubject: Re: No way to get engine to work   No way to get engine to work I_icon_minitimeYesterday at 1:09 pm

I might have missed a mention of checking fuel flow. There is an easy way in the shop manual to check it. Since pressure is possible even with poor flow it seems worthwhile to test the flow rate. You won't need to disconnect the fuel return line at the tank but just unhook it at the regulator and use another piece of hose to feed from the regulator to a measuring cup or an old baby bottle with measurement markings.
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