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 Belt Squeal?

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Loosemarbles
Silver Wing Rider
Silver Wing Rider
Loosemarbles

Number of posts : 472
Location : South East England
Points : 1894
Registration date : 2016-10-01

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 20, 2020 3:24 pm

I'm fed up.

I had belt squeal on my SW just after buying it 3 years ago. After replacing belts, rollers and clutch bell and shoes during that time, along with regular cleaning etc., I thought my squealing days were over.

My previous squealing had been a high pitch tone which 'felt' like it was the belt, and it usually was.

I have a new squeal which sounds more like tyres being locked up briefly at low speed, if that makes sense? It's a lower tone oscillating rubbing/squealing sound. It only happens during take off or slow speed crawling.

Holding the bike on the brakes and briefly revving the engine doesn't do much, if anything.

I've recently cleaned out the clutch and both front and rear pulleys and it all looks fine. The belt is about 2000 miles old.

What else could it be apart from clutch, belt or pulleys? My only other thought is the clutch assembly spring. Ideas welcome confused confused
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The Bern
Silver Wing Expert
Silver Wing Expert
The Bern

Number of posts : 871
Location : Telford, UK
Points : 3005
Registration date : 2014-11-20

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2020 7:01 am

Have you ...

Greased the bearing thats inside the driven pulley shaft ?

Checked the condition of the driven pulley shaft support bearing in the outer drive cover ?
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john grinsel
Curmudgeon
john grinsel

Number of posts : 2905
Age : 81
Points : 7413
Registration date : 2009-08-18

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2020 9:44 am

My first new SilverWing had a squeal (2009 model) thruout its 50,000 mile life with me. I never took anything apart other then belt changes every 15,000 miles, OEM belts. FIX: run engine up against brakes for 10-15 seconds---squeal would go away for a week or so. Most of these miles were under warranty so I didn't worry. Second new SilverWing 2013 did not have this problem---Currently on 11th new maxi scooter since 1990 and more than 400,00 miles with them. I consider the drive line the weakest link/point of maxiscooters. Record=1 broken belt underway, OEM belt near end of service life-Helix. Suzuki Burgmann 400 (my second new one) total blow up of rear clutch and drive line at 20,000 miles. Suzuki paid for repair including new belt. Think cost of repair was over $600 dealer cost price. Now that SilverWings are old are out of production, my advice, just ride until something breaks! Probably cheaper and less hassle in the long run.
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Loosemarbles
Silver Wing Rider
Silver Wing Rider
Loosemarbles

Number of posts : 472
Location : South East England
Points : 1894
Registration date : 2016-10-01

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2020 11:27 am

The Bern...I did check the grease and bearings on the driven pulley shaft. Couldn't feel any movement in the bearings.

john grinsell, I haven't yet run the engine up against the brakes for that long. I feels so non-intuitive but I'll give it a go.

I'm going to put the old belt back on (it's about 14000 miles old) to see if that makes a difference. I'm stuck between belt or clutch GRRRR!

Final solution? ....live with it....mmmmm...that's difficult No
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Sepp
Maxi-Scooter Rider
Maxi-Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 126
Location : west of the Sahara
Points : 417
Registration date : 2019-10-09

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2020 2:13 pm

while you are at it, take 4 rollers out and you will notice no more squeal.
just do it for a short test and you will see I am right.
from my old blog:
Strangled Sea Lion is the belt squeal
paint shaker is the bad vibrations in low rpm but middle to hard engine work.
http://malaguti-spidermax.blogspot.com/2010/08/master-500cc-roller-weight-comparison.html
One thing you can also check, remove the air intake filter from the CVT. Piaggio removed that completely in 2005 for better cooling and lower temps on the clutch. (500 and 400cc)
Or much simpler do not install the whole plastic cover for the test ride.
see: http://malaguti-spidermax.blogspot.com/2009/09/0-euro-tuning-piaggio-master-engine-500.html
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https://hosiwi.blogspot.com/
Mech 1 twa
Silver Wing Expert
Silver Wing Expert
Mech 1 twa

Number of posts : 876
Location : Allentown PA.
Points : 2597
Registration date : 2016-01-02

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2020 9:21 pm

It's most likely the clutch shoes from your description of when it's happening. I've had similar problems noise comes and goes. Lite sanding of drum and clutch shoes works for awhile but it always returns sooner or later. Use a finer grit above 300-400 and just scuff shoes a little, drum is steel that grit will just break the glaze.

I don't know about 10-15 seconds holding brakes belt and shoes are going to get very hot. Maybe 5 and wait a minute and let it cool then 5 more.

That big spring on rear drive is in a plastic sleeve and not really moving at low speeds it's not that.
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Loosemarbles
Silver Wing Rider
Silver Wing Rider
Loosemarbles

Number of posts : 472
Location : South East England
Points : 1894
Registration date : 2016-10-01

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 22, 2020 2:55 pm

You were right mech 1 twa. Test rode the old belt I had from the last service and it made no difference.....ruled out the belt.

Had a look at the clutch and found grease and muck on the clutch shoes, again. I've cleared out some excess grease from inside the clutch shaft, (I used to have a horrible habit of piling grease inside there before I figured out how it all works and realised it isn't necessary). Then I removed the shoes and gave 'em good going over. Cleaned everything to within an inch of it's life, put the newer belt back on and..... so far.......no noise....

As a result of all this I can now get the pulleys, belt and clutch assembly off my bike blindfolded in 10 minutes flat  tongue

BTW, Sepp. I've just caught your post. Some interesting points to consider for the future, although I hope I never get the chance to compare a noise with a Strangled Seal. Paint Shaker I can live with !
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Mech 1 twa
Silver Wing Expert
Silver Wing Expert
Mech 1 twa

Number of posts : 876
Location : Allentown PA.
Points : 2597
Registration date : 2016-01-02

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 22, 2020 8:02 pm

It get easy after a few times. A little grease goes a long way in the rear hub. There is a seal in there but it's part of inner bearing and that's a pain to replace been there.

If I had all the tools ready it's about a 45 minute job to replace belt and sliders-rollers and lube bearing.

Ride it. Older the vehicle more TLC it needs.

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abdullahb
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 52
Location : lebanon
Points : 230
Registration date : 2020-01-12

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 25, 2020 8:10 am

hey sepp! I noticed something from my testing... when I had 8 rollers weighing 20g each (160) my squealing was gone and the vibration was gone ... see on my cvt... the variator and fan are lighter than OEM... so 20g on my cvt is like 24 on an oem cvt...

anyway I installed 4 35g totaling 140g .... now the bike is soo alive and its soo quick! I mean quickkK!! low end top end.. midrange .. whatever.. its a rocket!

but the squealing is back and the vibration is back Sad

help!
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Cosmic_Jumper
Site Admin
Cosmic_Jumper

Number of posts : 3408
Age : 77
Location : damn near Philadelphia, PA
Points : 7992
Registration date : 2009-06-12

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 25, 2020 9:23 am

abdullahb wrote:
(Snip) but the squealing is back and the vibration is back

Perhaps, with all those variator & weight modifications, you’ve exceeded the belt’s ability to handle the increased stress. My 2¢.

Tim
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abdullahb
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 52
Location : lebanon
Points : 230
Registration date : 2020-01-12

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 25, 2020 10:23 am

u think a malossi belt will do better?

and whats ur insight on malossi vs pollini vs oem ?
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abdullahb
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 52
Location : lebanon
Points : 230
Registration date : 2020-01-12

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 25, 2020 10:35 am

besides.. I don't believe its the belt causing the squeal... its the clutch shoes on the blue clutch bell
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john grinsel
Curmudgeon
john grinsel

Number of posts : 2905
Age : 81
Points : 7413
Registration date : 2009-08-18

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 25, 2020 11:19 am

I think it is/was for me....rear clutch bell/shoes issue-----but I do not waste time parts changing/drive line mods---I made the noise go away by running engine up against brakes----it would stay away for a couple of weeks. I am into riding and use of scooter. Performance stock was just fine for me remembering I had purchased a big/heavy scooter with fine performance. AND with 2 new Silverwings and well over 90,000 miles total with them....I never walked or had to be towed, or had to spend extra money on them
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Sepp
Maxi-Scooter Rider
Maxi-Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 126
Location : west of the Sahara
Points : 417
Registration date : 2019-10-09

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 25, 2020 11:28 am

Most of my knowledge as do the expression "strangeld sea lion" and "paint shaker" are from the time and forum culture regarding the 500cc Piaggio engine bikes in the early 2000 to the beginning of the 2010th.
we are talking about the identical power plant and transmission as in the:
Aprilia Atlantic 500
Aprilia Scarabeo 500
Gilera Nexus 500
Gilera Fuoco 500
Piaggio Beverly 500
Piaggio MP3 500
Piaggio X9 500
Piaggio X10 500
Peugeot Satelis 500
Malaguti Spidermax 500
and more...

as to@CosmicJumper´s 2 cent, with over 75.000km on my first Spidermax and needing only 2 belts, the belt what was used only with the 4 slider setting showed after near 40.000 km a lot less stress marks and usage as the original belt what was used half 8 rollers and half 4 rollers and was replaced around 35.000 km.

The clutch squeals when it is not fully engaged, the belt squeals when it slips because of not enough rpm. Both should stop when you are in the 4500 rpm and above band
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https://hosiwi.blogspot.com/
abdullahb
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 52
Location : lebanon
Points : 230
Registration date : 2020-01-12

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 25, 2020 2:00 pm

nice! true...its only at take off.. but man... the thing is fast...smoked a tmax 530 2019 today! lol
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Mech 1 twa
Silver Wing Expert
Silver Wing Expert
Mech 1 twa

Number of posts : 876
Location : Allentown PA.
Points : 2597
Registration date : 2016-01-02

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 25, 2020 7:19 pm

abdullahb wrote:
besides.. I don't believe its the belt causing the squeal... its the clutch shoes on the blue clutch bell

Blue clutch bell??? Only thing that turns steel blue is heat and a lot of it. Ride it like you stole it but maint. parts will be the price.
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abdullahb
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 52
Location : lebanon
Points : 230
Registration date : 2020-01-12

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 26, 2020 1:32 am

Hahaa i know my friend...bought it used and it was already blue Sad
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Loosemarbles
Silver Wing Rider
Silver Wing Rider
Loosemarbles

Number of posts : 472
Location : South East England
Points : 1894
Registration date : 2016-10-01

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 26, 2020 4:44 pm

Ditto all of the above, however, the squeal I heard when I first bought the bike sounded like the belt and it was.

This clutch noise was quite different and I'm glad of the whole experience because I can now tell the difference. Another lesson learned Idea
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exavid
Silver Wing Guru
Silver Wing Guru


Number of posts : 2586
Age : 77
Location : Medford, Oregon
Points : 6728
Registration date : 2009-07-17

Belt Squeal? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Belt Squeal?   Belt Squeal? I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 26, 2020 5:18 pm

I had some belt squeal for awhile. But after losing 35lbs I don't have that squeal anymore. Turned out it was the belt on my pants.
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