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 BELT SLIPPAGE

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janitorj1
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PostSubject: BELT SLIPPAGE   Thu 01 Jun 2017, 15:54

Hey All..

My belt is slipping. Under moderate throttle, the RPMs go way up, and the bike has to "catch up" as it were. I back off on the throttle to get the bike and the belt "reconnected".

Upon inspection, removing the belt housing cover, I discovered the interior of the case full of oil slung all around the casing.

The question is whether or not the oil is coming from the clutch area (final drive oil), or the engine. I did change the final drive oil, I didn't measure what came out - but IMO it wasn't much. I put in abt 1/3 qt of motor oil into it with a pick-a-nik ketchup/catsup bottle.

I've heard here that this is an easy fix - I've also heard here that pretty much anything is an easy fix. I have plenty of tools and if I have to lay the scooter up for a bit that's OK. I will go back and check through the history and see if this was done by someone who might have posted pics. Anyone with tips and tricks would be welcome. I do have a dealership 40 miles away, but last time I was there for a tire - they forgot to reinstall my rear brake caliper, which I didn't notice until the brakes failed as I got home. That could have been interesting.

I didn't want to tag an old post and possibly the ire of some of the members. And yes, I think it's OK to put new posts on old topics. If we all just went through the history, there'd be nothing on the front page. Keeps it interesting.

Thanks to all who have helped me in the past, and I am looking forward to what awaits...

Jon
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Thu 01 Jun 2017, 17:32

janitorj1 wrote:
Hey All..

My belt is slipping.  Under moderate throttle, the RPMs go way up, and the bike has to "catch up" as it were.  I back off on the throttle to get the bike and the belt "reconnected".

Upon inspection, removing the belt housing cover, I discovered the interior of the case full of oil slung all around the casing.

The question is whether or not the oil is coming from the clutch area (final drive oil), or the engine.  I did change the final drive oil, I didn't measure what came out - but IMO it wasn't much.  I put in abt 1/3 qt of motor oil into it with a pick-a-nik ketchup/catsup bottle.

I've heard here that this is an easy fix - I've also heard here that pretty much anything is an easy fix.  I have plenty of tools and if I have to lay the scooter up for a bit that's OK.  I will go back and check through the history and see if this was done by someone who might have posted pics.  Anyone with tips and tricks would be welcome.  I do have a dealership 40 miles away, but last time I was there for a tire - they forgot to reinstall my rear brake caliper, which I didn't notice until the brakes failed as  I got home.  That could have been interesting.

I didn't want to tag an old post and possibly the ire of some of the members.  And yes, I think it's OK to put new posts on old topics.  If we all just went through the history, there'd be nothing on the front page. Keeps it interesting.  

Thanks to all who have helped me in the past, and I am looking forward to what awaits...

Jon
There are two 12mm Cap screws on the final, The one at the bottom on about a 30 degree angle, Above that one and two or three inches rearward is another, This one is vertical, Take the vertical one out, If oil runs out you have overfilled the Final, Let all excess oil run out. Then reinstall that Cap screw. Wash out your Belt case thorouly, Variator and clutch assembly until all oil is removed. I would like to see you install a new belt, So do not worry about spraying cleaner onto the belt and pulleys. This belt case and parts must be free from all oil. Run the engine during your cleaning job so that you remove all oil. Have a fire extinguisher handy. Once you have cleaned everything, Use your flashlight with the engine running to see if any oil is bypassing the Crankshaft seal or the final seal, Hopefully you had too much oil in that final and your problem is solved. If not let the forum know. Happy motoring lloyd 193. swing
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Thu 01 Jun 2017, 17:47

Belt case oil leak? Ooo Jon...this ain't a good thing.

Two possibilities: 1) Clutch bell seal leak at the final drive input shaft. 2) Crankshaft oil seal leak. The only way to know for sure is to remove the variator and Driven Pulley and clean the belt case (both halfs) with brake cleaner. Reassemble everything and road test for a week or so. Then remove the variator again and see if oil appears to be weeping from the crank seal.

1) If the crank seal is leaking you'll need to remove the swing arm (belt case & final drive) to replace the seal. It's an awkward job but eminently doable. Remove the right side swing arm and wheel in the usual manner. Then remove the variator and loosen the 6 (?) hex bolts attaching the left side swing arm to the engine. Detach the left shock absorber and remove the bolts holding the belt case to the center swing arm (the cast piece attaching the L & R swingarms. Use a block of wood, or whatever, to support the final drive. Once that is done you can remove those 6 bolts from the swingarm pivot surrounding the crankshaft and remove the swingarm/final drive and set it aside.There is no need to remove the left side pivot bearing from the swing arm.Then slide the collar and "O" ring off the crankshaft and pop out the crankshaft seal. Pay particular attention to how deep the original seal is set into the engine case. Lube the new seal and then you can push it in with your thumbs. Dont forget the "O" ring and collar.

It's not a difficult job but it is very awkward. You might want to have a milk crate handy to set the swingarm / final drive on to keep it out of harm's way.

2) If the leak is at the clutch bell you'll either need the official clutch bell puller or a long 3-arm puller to remove the bell. First remove the snap ring from the input shaft at the clutch bell. Once the bell is removed the seal is replaced in the same manner as described above. To reinstall the bell you can use a 1 1/2" piece of PVC, a stack of big washers and the 22mm Driven Pulley nut to "press" the clutch bell back on the shaft. Dont forget to press the clutch bell completely on the shaft so that the snap ring can fit back in the groove.

IMHO The clutch bell seal job is tedious while the crankshaft seal job is damn awkward. HTH

Tim
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Fri 02 Jun 2017, 17:34

Tim, Great job detailing repairs to the Belt case seals, They are exasperating with the Bike upright. Once I have drained the oil and Siphoned the gas out of the tank, Checked that the battery is a sealed battery, Removed the rear wheel and accessories. I lay the bike on it's Right side on a half filled air mattress covered with a clean moving blanket The right foot of the main stand and the right handlebar support the bike while I have it in this compromising position. Now I have light and can sit on my short stool and do the repairs. This is a real time saver and I feel that a more accurate job can be done. When possible I do not allow the owner to see his bike laying down Largely dismantled, It is a temporarily discouraging sight. Happy motoring lloyd 193. swing
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Fri 02 Jun 2017, 21:34

Lloyd, Maybe you have a better or more detailed "How to" explanation for removing the Clutch Bell than my vague explanation. It's a tedious job and the more detailed the procedure the easier it will be. I forget what size & type gear puller has been used in the past --though I do recall that it was available from Harbor Freight pretty inexpensively.

Tim
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Fri 02 Jun 2017, 21:59

Tim, I ordered the Honda tools years ago, Including the installer. I have used them many times and even at the high prices I paid, I would buy them again. I am not familiar with the Harbor Freight tools. Thanks again for your Clear and Detailed instructions. Happy Motoring lloyd 193. swing
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Fri 02 Jun 2017, 22:27

Darn, well there goes that idea...
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cliffyk
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Sat 03 Jun 2017, 14:51

OP, when you changed the final drive oil did you remove the CVT covers, at least the plastic ones? I ask because if you filled it with the covers on there is a good chance that a bit, or even more than a bit of the final drive oil ended up in the CVT housing and not the gear case...
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Sat 03 Jun 2017, 17:10

cliffyk wrote:
OP, when you changed the final drive oil did you remove the CVT covers, at least the plastic ones?  I ask because if you filled it with the covers on there is a good chance that a bit, or even more than a bit of the final drive oil ended up in the CVT housing and not the gear case...
Exactly, That is the reason I suggested he use the two 12mm cap screws accessible outside the cover, That he not use the Socket head cap screw in the cover and that he flush the belt housing thorouly, I hope his seals are ok and that he does not have to do any major work. Using aerosol brake cleaner does not destroy the belt, However while I was in there I would replace it after the thorough cleaning. Happy motoring lloyd 193 swing
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Sun 04 Jun 2017, 19:08

There is a small opening in the belt case under rear sprocket pulley, any excessive amount of oil would run out after a a diff. service. Cover also has a recess under fill bolt to direct oil away from belt area.
Oil would follow cover to lowest point and drain.
Unless you were really sloppy filling it I don't see oil getting on belt.



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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Sun 04 Jun 2017, 20:10

Mech 1 twa wrote:
There is a small opening in the belt case under rear sprocket pulley, any excessive amount of oil would run out after a a diff. service. Cover also has a recess under fill bolt to direct oil away from belt area.
Oil would follow cover to lowest point and drain.
Unless you were really sloppy filling it I don't see oil getting on belt.



The tremendous air flow inside the belt cover and Housing will blow oil everywhere, It will migrate to all areas of the belt case including onto the belt and the pulleys resulting in slipping in only a few minutes of use, This area must be clean, Dry and free from oil. Happy motoring lloyd 193. swing
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Sun 04 Jun 2017, 20:48

I agree with most of what you stated. BUT if you did get a little oil inside and it ran out drain hole then it could not get blown around. A very little bit will cause belt to slip I know that.
Not all brake cleaners are rubber safe some will attack and soften them. Belt and seals will suffer.

If OP has an engine oil seal leak then it will be thrown around from crankshaft seal etc and all over inside case.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Sun 04 Jun 2017, 21:31

I looked on Ebay at a used outer belt cover there is very little chance of oil getting into belt case. Drain at bottom is outside belt area. If that was the case every time someone washed their scooter it would get into belt area. Inner and outer cases are metal to metal but no seal machined fit fairly close tolerance. Diff. fill is the hole in the case above drain area.
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Mon 05 Jun 2017, 07:54

Mech 1 twa wrote:
I agree with most of what you stated. BUT if you did get a little oil inside and it ran out drain hole then it could not get blown around. A very little bit will cause belt to slip I know that.
Not all brake cleaners are rubber safe some will attack and soften them. Belt and seals will suffer.

If OP has an engine oil seal leak then it will be thrown around from crankshaft seal etc and all over inside case.
It is best not to use the socket head cap screw that passes thru the covers into the Final, Instead use the two 12 mm cap screws below the covers. Lowest horizontal one is the drain, Two inches rearward and two inches higher is the second vertical cap screw. Force oil into the lowest hole until it comes out the top hole, Plug both holes, Final oil is now changed. I have been doing it this way for 15 years on hundreds of Silver wings And have never gotten a drop of oil into a belt case. Happy motoring lloyd 193. swing
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Mon 05 Jun 2017, 13:58

Loyd193,j
Is the upper bolt hole the same height as the socket head cap screw?
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Mon 05 Jun 2017, 14:29

Easyrider wrote:
Loyd193,j
Is the upper bolt hole the same height as the socket head cap screw?
The opening into the final cavity is at the same height as the Socket head cap screw opening. The 12mm bolt is about 3" long. Using this method the final will contain 10 or 11 ounces of lube. Happy motoring lloyd 193. swing
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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Mon 05 Jun 2017, 20:32

I got a bit paranoid this morning: I changed the oil in the final drive of my 2007 SWing yesterday. Did not remove any tupperware. And then I read this thread. I took all the covers off to verify that there was no oil in the belt case. I can't see how final drive oil can get into the belt housing. The case has built-in channels that would direct any spillage away from the belt.
As it happened I did overfill and had to let the excess drain out while the covers were off: just to be sure that no oil got into the belt housing. My next change will be without removing any covers !
As for filling, if you are patient, gravity will work for you.
Jay.
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DickO
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Mon 05 Jun 2017, 20:54

Look... I'm certainly no expert on all this rear end oil change thing but I believe people are making more out of it than necessary. The very first time I performed this simple procedure, I pulled the filler port screw, pulled the drain plug, let it drain sufficiently, put the drain plug back in, filled the unit back up with some synthetic 10W-30 engine oil using a hand operated squirt can till the oil flowed back out of the hole, then reinstalled the filler port screw, wiped the entire unit down from any excess oil, then rode the bike. There just ain't nuthin' else to it.
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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Re: BELT SLIPPAGE   Tue 06 Jun 2017, 07:24

All there is to it !
Jay.
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