Drive belt questions

Well, I think I've figured out how to post photos now. When I went to replace my drive belt, this is what I found:



I could only find about 8-10 inches of actual belt fragments and everything else was cotton candy. Those fibers were wrapped all around my pulleys.


Is that what the inside of a belt is composed of? I actually thought that the guy from before had used rope to secure the belt on, but another buddy told me that those "rope" fibers are what's inside the belt under the rubber exterior. Anybody know for sure?

Hammy,

I think the inside of the belts are made of a Kevlar, even the stock belts have a certain amount, if I remember correctly. So maybe that is what those fibers are, but can't say for sure. Did it make the SWing jerk or something when it gave out? I'm just wondering if you can tell us what it felt like when it gave out so those of us that have never experienced it will know what to expect.

I felt as if something snapped under me with a "thwunk", but the Swing didn't jolt or jerk or anything nor did I hear any weird sounds after that. I pretty much figured it was the belt when I hit the throttle and realized that the crankshaft would spin with the throttle but no power was going to the wheels at all -- that's when I realized it was the belt. So the closest thing is to experience a sudden and immediate loss of power to the wheels. There wasn't any 'braking' either but the bike basically just coasted since it was basically freewheeling, which was great, cos I was able to just coast all the way to the nearest overpass half a mile away.

Dang it Hammy, That's really a mess. How long did it take to clean that out. I lost the teeth off a primary belt on my old harley once. That felt strange. When I got the chance to open the cover there was belt teeth on the bottom. After that I went back to the old type primary chain drive setup.

Those rope fibers were really coiled around the clutch pulley, and the guy helping me had to coil them around a screwdriver and slowly yank them out. I wasn't able to do it by hand. It took about 5-10 minutes. There was a lot of black dust which I gather was the obliterated belt, and this stuff and the cotton candy.

I have to ask Hammy, how many miles did you have on you scoot or that belt?

MaxB (who just changed the belt on my friends Swing, her light started blinking)

I bought the Swing on June 12 with 5947 miles on it and the belt snapped at 11283 miles. And yes, that's quite a lot under what I would expect the lifespan of a belt to be...

How long have other folks' belts lasted?

I'm at 31700 and I will change mine at 32k, had it changed at 16k by Honda. The light will come on automatically at 16k intervals. Must have just been a bad belt, Sorry Hammy. My wife and I ride double all the time and for pretty good distances considering I bought it new last march. We, together are pushing the "prescribed load limit" also, lol. Better luck on your new belt.
Jim

I changed my belt at 20,000 miles, only because I already had it all apart adding the J.Costa, so I figured that it would be as good a time as any. Visually the belt still looked good, but I know that you need to actually measure it's width with a micrometer or whatever, so who knows.

Maybe the fact that I rode 6000 miles in 6 weeks, including 3000 miles in 7 days might have had something to do with my belt snapping at 11283 miles...

Hammy wrote:

Maybe the fact that I rode 6000 miles in 6 weeks, including 3000 miles in 7 days might have had something to do with my belt snapping at 11283 miles...

Your my new Hero.... to ride that many miles in 6 weeks.

that said: age, temp inside the belt housing and other things determin the longevity of belts.
You cannot tell the degredation of a belt by looking at it. The rubber oxidizes and becomes brittle with temp and age. When this happens delamination from the cord happens. And as you have found out BOOM and it' gone. Kinda like age cracks in tires.

I noticed that your sccoot is a 2004. with that few miles on it your belt is 6-7 yrs old and sat with the belt in one place (bent around the pulleys for a long time)
I believe this contrubuted to the early (mileage) demise.
MaxB

I actually rode 4800 miles in 9 days earlier this March on a 263cc SYM Citycom in crazy winter weather. And yep, I'm a happy sick and twisted member of the IBA.

OK , I remember you now, from MTF board. hahahaha

When I was your age i did the same mile eating kind of riding.
Now I still do a lot but not like back then.

MaxB

Nice to see a fellow MTF member here, Max! And yep, I'm that crazy fella who went riding in the ice and snow and rain...

Haha... you should meet my buddy Jerome, aka MungoJerry, also from the MTF board. HE'S my inspiration, and is about to embark on the Butt Lite 5000 in August. He rides a Yamaha Majesty 400.

Hammie I did see where someone put a Aux tank on a Swing I believe. I don't remember where. I remeber he put a different gas cap on and tapped it with a brass elbow and fed the aux tank in that way. Can't remeber the rest of the set up.

how many miles do you get to a tank now? How far do you want to go before fillup?

I was on the RAM fixture site and they make stuff for a lap top , I think it was under like maybe police stuff or something.

maxB ( who heart still thinks he can do those kinda miles but his back says no.)

UH I remember telling you to go to a Swng on that forum. Glad to see you made the switch.
I think you learned that it is necessary to keep a spare belt (the old one) while on those trips.

Boy my spelling is degraded today more than usual. Sorry.

maxB

Yep, that'd be one way to add an aux tank, but most commercial tanks would end up having to go on the rear rack whereas I'd like to rig one to be in the center, basically like a funnel into the tank.

Right now at interstate speed, I'm getting only about 110 miles (about 32-36mpg) before I start looking for a station. But that's probably cos my recent setup was with giant saddlebags and a very large Givi shield. I think without the saddlebags (maybe I'd use a duffel) and with a Givi AirFlow, I think I'll be able to hop up the mileage scale and maybe get into the 40s.

Get the power commander soon ,
Use the Euro map in it.
It increased my highway mileage a lot.
Before I got 130-140 miles before filling. That's at 65-80 speedo and sometimes 90 for short sputs on the interstate.
Now even with the JCosta I can go 160 and still had .7 gal left on that fillup.
Coulda went more but with no reserve handle and the light blinking for 30 miles, I chickened out and filled up. Now I know. I probalby could have gone 180 or so. But I refuse to temp fate and run out of gas.

I've run out of gas before 20 miles from the nearest station, thank goodness I carry a 1 gallon Rotopax. I usually travel 70-80mph indicated or 68-75mph actual on interstates. I just ordered lighter Dr. Pulley sliders at 26g versus 28g stock whatever-they-were in the variator. Is the power commander an easy install? I'm not sure I really understand what it does...

Your shredded belt is exactly like The one failure I have had in quite a bit of rubber band drive scooter experience---Helix

Mine was OEM and ground itself up just before change time. Mine was warranty as I recall. Carry spare is good idea.

If you ride a lot, belts are weakest link.

John Grinsel

John, is that what your belt looked like? Cos I can't figure out what those rope-like looking things are...

The power commander is a very easy install.
You hook it up to your PC first. and down load the different programs. pick the one you want (Euro map) and download to the power commander.
Then install on scooter. It takes about 15 minutes to install. 4 plugs (color coded) and a ground wire. Put the magic box where your tool kit is.
What it does is change the length of time your fuel injector is open, either making it longer (richer) or shorter (leaner).
The stock US map is rich throughout its range of RPMs.
The Euro map leans out (shortens) the fuel injector at cruise RPMS (4500-redline).
If you go to their site you can get the maps and install instructions.

MaxB (who gained about 4 mpgs with power commander)

Is there a way to change the map depending on how I ride? I do rides through back roads sometimes, max 55mph, but other times if I'm on the interstate, I'm usually 70-75mph...

Hammy wrote:

John, is that what your belt looked like? Cos I can't figure out what those rope-like looking things are...

Hammy, those rope like thingy's are the webbing that is in the drive belt.

belt construction is like tires. a webbing is wound into an circle and then bonded to rubber on both sides making a long tube kinda like a water hose on your car.
It is then cut to width and the side bevel is ground into it.

If you look at the side of the belt you will see the 3 layers. outer rubber-webbing-inner rubber.

MaxB

Okay, that's good to know, cos I was freaking out and wondering if I had actually been riding on a rope the whole time!

Hammy wrote:

Is there a way to change the map depending on how I ride? I do rides through back roads sometimes, max 55mph, but other times if I'm on the interstate, I'm usually 70-75mph...

Yes you can change the map you would need a laptop to do it on the bike.
I have not changed mine since install.
I would not tinker with the map without having a tailpipe sniffer and air fuel ratio checker. You don't want it too lean and burn a piston.
there are other threads on her on Dyno tunings.
But without a Dyno available i wouldnt chage it too much.

MaxB

Okay... I'm just wondering if riding 70-75mph nets the same gains in mpg on the Euro map as with stock (no power commander).

I have an 02 SW with 10.000miles. Recently I notice when accelerating quickly there seems to be slipping. The power does not seem to be going to the wheels. Could the belt be going at only 10K? Thanks dan

That could very well be the case. That belt is 8 years old, and may be showing it's age. I suggest that it's time for a belt inspection. Look at the how to section in this forum on belt replacement. It tells you how to pull the cover off and take a look. If there is any doubt, replace it. One of our members had a belt let go at similar mileage and was stranded many miles from home until he could get it replaced.

ridr44 wrote:

I have an 02 SW with 10.000miles. Recently I notice when accelerating quickly there seems to be slipping.

At what speed(s)?

I have noticed it so far when I gun it to either get on the highway or if I'm cruiseing along at say 55 and gun it up to 75...it slips and then kind of winds up suddenly...

ridr44 wrote:

I have noticed it so far when I gun it to either get on the highway or if I'm cruiseing along at say 55 and gun it up to 75...it slips and then kind of winds up suddenly...

At those speeds it would be either the belt or the belt debris ( needs cleaning ).

I agree based on age of the belt, it may be safer to change it.

bigbird wrote:

honda_silver wrote:

At those speeds it would be either the belt or the belt debris ( needs cleaning ).

Or the clutch?

After 15 MPH the clutch disengages.

If the belt is 8 years old I would replace it. I'm sure that the belt is like tires where age effects it too. But this is just my opinion. You might also check the torque of the bolt that secures the variator. If it is not torqued as much as it should that may also get rpm's to rev or feel like the clutch is slipping. Just a thought.

bigbird wrote:

honda_silver wrote:

bigbird wrote:

honda_silver wrote:

At those speeds it would be either the belt or the belt debris ( needs cleaning ).

Or the clutch?

After 15 MPH the clutch disengages.

Huh? The clutch is engaged above 15 mph. If it weren't, there would be no connection between the front variator and the final drive.

That is right bigbird .I would also be looking at the variator probably sticking .If the clutch starts slipping you should smell it .

bigbird wrote:

Huh? The clutch is engaged above 15 mph. If it weren't, there would be no connection between the front variator and the final drive.

I have been going through the Service Manual hoping to understand how the the clutch mechanics better.

I did notice under the Drive Pulley/Driven Pulley/Clutch Troubleshooting it has this section:


Poor performance at high speed or lack of power
* Worn drive belt
* Weak driven face spring
* Worn weight rollers
* Contaiminated pulley faces


They do not mention anything about the clutch.

Worn driven face spring ,is part of the clutch .Just different terminology .

I've noticed a drop in MPG lately. I have had the J-Costa installed for about 8K now and I'm thinking the pins are wearing down, need to look at them. So here soon, I'll be going back to the Stock Honda variator. It's like new with only 2K on it and planing to use a little dry lub (graphite) on the rollers to help them on there mission.

I'll let you all know what I find out about the J-Costa pin wear. Does anyone know what the wear limit is on the J-Costa pins?

DennisB wrote:

I've noticed a drop in MPG lately. I have had the J-Costa installed for about 8K now and I'm thinking the pins are wearing down, need to look at them. So here soon, I'll be going back to the Stock Honda variator. It's like new with only 2K on it and planing to use a little dry lub (graphite) on the rollers to help them on there mission.

I'll let you all know what I find out about the J-Costa pin wear. Does anyone know what the wear limit is on the J-Costa pins?

Dennis , I don;t know for a fact the wear limits on the pins in a J costa.
Email scooter trap and get the skinny on the wear limit.

My guess is :
the pins have a small dimple/hole in the end and when it is worn to the bottom , it would be time to change them..

New considerations:
has your RPM's increased? that would be a better indicator than drop in MPG's.
As you know many things can affect the MPG on a scoot.
Try some fuel injector additive before changing out variator. I have found that doing this brings back the MPG. (this is on most of my vehicles)

If you do look at the variator, Keep me posted on the wear, Mine are at 7k now. Just not ready to tear it down just yet.

MaxB

DennisB wrote:

I've noticed a drop in MPG lately. I have had the J-Costa installed for about 8K now and I'm thinking the pins are wearing down, need to look at them. So here soon, I'll be going back to the Stock Honda variator. It's like new with only 2K on it and planing to use a little dry lub (graphite) on the rollers to help them on there mission.

I'll let you all know what I find out about the J-Costa pin wear. Does anyone know what the wear limit is on the J-Costa pins?

The relatively short pin life on the J. Costa is one of the main reasons I haven't gotten one yet. Can you tell me if you need to take the whole thing apart to replace the pins? It just seems like such a hassle.

Yeah, The whole darn thing needs to be taken apart. Would not be so bad if I had a M/C lift. Working on the floor kinda gets to me after a while. This will give me a real good op to measure the belt to see how it's holding up.

Thanks Guys for all the information.

Max, I'll head on over to Wal-Mart and pick up a small can of SEAFOAM and try it out. There's a PGR mission on Friday I'd like to Attend. 220 miles, one way. Give the scooter some sweet, high speed, highway miles. Just changed out the oil and filter...went with a full synthetic oil on this change. Motor sounds a little smoother on the full synthetic oil.

Dang right it sounds a little smoother. Everyone knows that full synthetic will result in a pleasant aural tickling. A blend is not quite as soothing. And full dino oil is just so hard on the ears. My friend the symphonic tympany artist told me all about this years ago. He claims Shellbil 7 will make your motor sound like Beethoven.

Not even related to the drive belt until I add I think that the kevlar belts sound like cellos. OEM are more like violas.

x

bigbird wrote:

Sweendog wrote:

Can you tell me if you need to take the whole thing apart to replace the pins? It just seems like such a hassle.

To pull the outer cover and remove the front variator to change the pins is really not a big deal. I'll say 1/2 hour at most. It gives you a reason to clean the belt cover air filter and check the belt. To do that every 10k miles isn't too onerous to me. The price of the pins at $65 delivered also isn't extreme for every 10k miles. Don't let that stop you from considering a J. Costa.
The other line of thought is to use the stock Honda variator and replace the stock rollers with Dr. Pulley sliders in a lighter weight, such as 26gr. There have been good reports on that setup. Those go for $53 + shipping. I don't know what the expected life of the Dr. Pulley sliders are.

Hey Sweeney, I changed my belt with the help of JeffR's wonderful pictorials and Cosmic Jumper's guidance (plus Honda_Silver, DennisB et al). It'll probably take about 30 minutes to get everything off, lubed, and on. Lemme know if you need any help -- I have a 12V impact wrench that I now carry for the sole purpose of doing a belt change on the road. BTW, the new OEM belt I ordered from a dealer actually turned out to have a Mitsuboshi stamp on the belt. Why? I have no idea.

I also have the 26g sliders. I think you saw what those can do when you rode with me the other day. I actually got on the Pocono Raceway while on the Rock and Roll Ride for Autism, and reached 100mph actual (on me GPS, not me speedo) on the 1 mile straightaway when I ran out of room cos there were too many Harleys crowding the inner lane. I have no idea what the actual top speed is, but I love the improved acceleration over the stock rollers.

My gas mileage always drops in the fall . They run richer longer . Maybe it is still warm there and that is not it . I am wearing double layers already .
those belts always look the same I have two used ones on my wall one is 02 the other 06 both changed when light came on ,both look like new .
i think the belts would last a lot longer to bad the variator is crap . So I replaced my friends drive belt for him ,I told him to make sure he got a Honda belt so he did . And printed on the back of it ,MItsubishi . What the ?

Simple explanation for the Mitsuboshi markings on the belt.

That's who makes the belt. Honda doesn't manufacture (among other things) the belt, light bulbs, spark plugs, tires, etc... They use suppliers like Mitsuboshi, Sylvania, NGK, Bridgestone / IRC, etc.

J hear ya on gettting down there on the floor and working.

While you have it apart, don't forget to deglaze (take the shine off) the front variator pulleys. I use 400 or so grit paper/ your choice) This helps with slippage.

MaxB ( who just started taking an NSAID for back pain this week)