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 broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix

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cotetoi
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 11:26 am

Hey guys, I just got a '87 Helix with 20000km. It has issues, which I expected but did not foresee running into a stuck oil drain bolt that had no crush washer. I was too persistent and ended up removing part of the raised lip around the drain. I have the two pieces, but now I have no idea if this thing can be fixed at all.
Any suggestions ?
The oil screen tappit was put on in a similar way. It had to be hammered off, but thankfully no further damage.
Jay.
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john grinsel
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 1:00 pm

Some Helix experience here---175,000 miles---4 new ones-- if you broke off only "fins" surrounding drain plug and crankcase is not broken/cracked and threads in crankcase are ok---I'd still replace plug and get proper Honda washer
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oldgwingguy
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 1:38 pm

On SOME stuck threads I've had good luck tightening just a tad after finding out loosening wasn't working. In some cases tighten, loosen a little, tighten, loosen until it feels more normal before trying to just take it out.
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NWSSC
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 2:16 pm

It has been a while but if it is what i'm thinking the same drain plug
used on the S/W. It is not a tapered fit but seals on the 'O' on the plug. This part is a carryover from other Honda engines. Usually when part of the drain plug brakes off you can remove the rest easily by just turning it out,our you may have already have all the parts. Howard
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cotetoi
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 4:01 pm

Thanks, guys. What I have is only a partial thread remaining on the case. The remainder of the threads are in the two pieces that broke off.
What I am thinking of doing is to find a way to seal the drain plug altogether, with the best cheap technology available. Oil changes can still be done by siphoning through the dipstick hole which has a direct connection to the bottom of the engine case.
Any ideas as to how this can be done: the sealing of the oil drain hole ??
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NWSSC
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix    broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 4:27 pm

If there are threads in the engine block they usually can be removed easily by turning them out just like you were removing the drain plug. They are not tapered so they do not lock in the block.They might need a gentile nudge but usually come out easily.Use gentile persuasion.  Howard
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oldgwingguy
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 4:53 pm

Well I don't know if they even exist any longer but the old style thermos plug stopper style plug, rubber just fits in the hole then a locking metal cam style device expands it and seals it up. HOWEVER I'm not sure I'd want to have something like that permanently so I'd try to carefully as above pick the threads out and see what could be done. Anything you would care to trust to JB Weld?
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Cosmic_Jumper
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 5:08 pm

If, if the  (internal) crankcase threads are nackered and stripped then you're pretty much scr*wed. You might be able to find a Heli-coil to fit that hole --IIRC the Helix plug is much smaller than the SW drain plug. That job would probably require removing the engine. Or laying over the scoot so that you had good working access to that area.

But going with your idea of siphoning the oil via the dipstick you could probably clean the crankcase and drain plug hole thoroughly and then JBWeld the drain plug back in place.

I'd sure give the Heli-coil option a try before I turned to desperate measures. Hope & pray that Howard is right, and it's only the drain plug threads that are broken off in the crankcase.

Boog jobs bring bad karma.

Tim

EDIT: looks like the actual drain bolt is an 18mm thread and the screen access is via the standard Honda tappet cover. The tappet cover threads are kinda notorious for stripping and leaving threads in the crankcase cover. It shouldnt be all that difficult to locate an 18mm tap, or a Heli-coil for an 18mm thread hole. Here's a link

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Scooter/1987/CN250+AC/RIGHT+CRANKCASE+COVER/parts.html
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tinman
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 5:52 pm

If you can screw the plug by hand as tight as you can , fill in the crack with liquid aluminum .you might be able to fit the broken pieces in permanently .If it holds, sealing the plug over permanently in place. Or re threading the side of the build up wall to re use the plug.
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NWSSC
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix    broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 5:54 pm

I have repaired several of these broken drain bolts and if you keep it simple it is not a big deal.
The broken drain bolt threads usually can be removed easily because they are no tapered. I would not recommend using any kind of thread repair operation,it only complicates matters.  Howard
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exavid
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 6:51 pm

It's unlikely a Helicoil would work in this situation. The metal in the bottom of the case is pretty thin to be able to thread enough metal to hold the coil.

Sucking the oil out through the fill hole would work though I'd want to use some engine cleaner every other change or so to keep crud build up under control since sucking the oil out doesn't clear the engine as well as draining the oil. Sea Foam, Marvel Mystery Oil or a similar naptha based engine cleaner would help with that problem.

Sorry I was thinking about SWs not the Helix. One simple repair would be to get an expandable rubber drain plug. Expansion plugs come in various sizes and work well. I had one on a '50 Chevy (my first car) and put 20,000 more miles on it with no problem.

Take a look here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=expandable+oil+drain+plug&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=&gws_rd=ssl


Last edited by exavid on Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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cotetoi
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 7:57 pm

Hey guys, thanks for your input. I began to realise that I needed to post a pic or two to throw some more light. I have posted 3 pics in my gallery. You will find that the lip is sheared off and the broken portion is in 2 pieces.
I am thinking of putting the bolt back, and laying the JB weld thick right into the exposed threads and all around the bolt head and sealing the entire area tight. JB Weld has a high heat variety that comes in putty. Let me know what you think after you see the pics.
Thanks, Jay.
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NWSSC
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix    broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 9:36 pm

As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.You mentioned the oil drain bolt with no washer and
the oil screen tappet had to be tapped off. Sounds like we are talking about two different areas. It has been almost ten years since I had my Helix but I thought it had the larger drain (Tappet adj cover bolt) with a screen and spring inside the engine. The area that has some damage appears to be a much smaller diameter. Howard
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john grinsel
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10, 2015 10:47 am

Just looked at picture of Helix engine right side.
Best fix replace right side engine cover--approx. $160 US, I would add new oil screen cover and new drain plug---do it right.

Future=use proper sockets on cover/drain bolt.
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cotetoi
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10, 2015 12:42 pm

Thank you all. John, you are the second person to suggest a replacement. I will try a quick fix with the JB weld stuff. If it does not hold, I can always fall back on the replacement. A Honda mechanic suggested the JB. He said there is no pressure generated by the engine in the oil pan, and his personal experience with JB has been good.
After my Silverwing experience and tappit cover I have learned the value of 6 point wrenches, but obviously the PO had no idea about them or of oil plug crush washers.
In future purchases from private parties I might just ask for permission to check things out more thoroughly, and walk away if they don't pan out.
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cotetoi
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10, 2015 12:44 pm

One more thing, of the three rides I own, this one has the best seat in the bunch.
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cotetoi
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10, 2015 7:03 pm

Quick follow-up: I bought the Permatek putty and proceeded with the fix. I lay the bike on the left side to get optimal access. I cleaned the drain hole area as thoroughly as I could with an engine degreaser. I fashioned a 1cm disc out of some scrap tin, put a hole in the middle and ran some thin wire. I fished the wire thru the dipstick, pulled the disc tight over the drain hole. I mixed the putty, and packed it in, while keeping the wire tight. I left the oil bolt out. After I was satisfied that there was enough stuff in the hole, I cut the wire close to the putty and buried the end in it. Smoothed the putty as much as I could. It sets in 5 minutes so you have to work fast. It cures in 1 hour. I gave it 2 hours. In the meantime I put the filter screen and tappit on. Gentle tightening, the O-ring do the job, not the threads.
Put the bike upright, and put the 10-30 Rotella that I had on hand. Dropped the charged battery, and hey presto !!! purring like a kitten. I let it run for about 10 minutes, not a drop anywhere. I went for a 25 mile ride in town, and all is still good. Phewwww.
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model28a
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broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix Empty
PostSubject: Re: broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix   broken lip of oil drain hole in Honda Helix I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10, 2015 10:12 pm

applause cheers
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