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 Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement

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Mudnman
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Dimond
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PostSubject: Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement   Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07, 2014 12:10 am

Each time I pull my rear wheel for a tire change I notice that the 'white' Lithium No2 grease that I have packed into the annular space between the Dust Seal and the Oil Seal after the prior tire change is very dirty.  The Seals that I am referring to are those visible after the wheel is removed from the axle (on the right side of the transmission - not on the swing arm).  
I am guessing that I can pull the Dust Seal out and replace it without removing anything else.  The question I have relates to the Oil Seal. Can I remove the Oil Seal without removing anything else?  If so, how do I get it out (e.g., drill a hole in it and pick it out).  My theory is keeping the inboard bearing from contacting dirty grease will extend its life - but not sure if my theory is correct.  Any comments appreciated.  Plan to do this tomorrow.
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Mudnman
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PostSubject: Re: Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement   Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07, 2014 2:57 am

The book shows a seal pressed in from inside the case(I'm guessing) in that area.
I haven't had it apart so I'm not sure.Hopefuly some one will chime in !
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement   Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07, 2014 10:42 am

If, that's IF, the seal is bad or compromised then it would be leaking final drive oil and you would see that oil being thrown all over the left side of the wheel, etc. With you packing that area with white grease,before sliding on the wheel, you are probably saving that seal from grit, etc. passing further into the seal.

But to answer your original question; No I don't have any idea whether that seal is installed from the outside or inside the gear case. In either case the seal would be removed in the traditional manner.

Tim
If it ain't broke, don fix it
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NWSSC
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PostSubject: Re: Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement   Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07, 2014 3:17 pm

I also agree, If it ain't broke leave it alone. It is interesting that the shop manual shows a seal installed in the case after the bearing from the inside.Also on page (11-5) the diagram shows a seal (as part of the bearing) on both sides of the bearing.It also shows that this is the only bearing to be sealed like this. I can see the need of a seal as part of the bearing on the outside,and a dust seal to help, but my question would be how is it lubricated.I see no channel in or out of the bearing area.I guess we will have to wait till some one has a unite dissembled.
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jmaslak
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PostSubject: Re: Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement   Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 07, 2014 9:44 pm

I bought that final drive shaft bearing - I have it in front of me. It's a 62/32RS (rubber seal) bearing. It's definitely a sealed bearing (on both sides) and thus is not lubricated by final drive oil. It comes lubricated and doesn't ever need to be re-lubricated.

Shop manual says the inside seal is an oil seal. Then the sealed bearing, then the dust seal on the outside (towards the wheel).

The oil seal and bearing must be replaced from the inside - I.E. you have to disassemble the final drive to do it.

You definitely shouldn't pack grease between the bearing and the dust seal. You'll make a mess as it slings grease out. I don't know what the manual says for greasing the dust seal (I honestly can't find it), but at most you would need a very light coat of grease at the mating surface with the collar.

Back to the OP, you can't remove the oil seal without disassembling the final drive! The oil seal you are seeing is part of the sealed bearing, which cannot be removed from the wheel side (it too needs the final drive disassembled to remove).
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement   Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 08, 2014 7:32 am

Leave alone!! Grease working on splines does some grinding---thus gets dirty. You might try super high temp grease on parts---Both BMW and Honda should list it.


Just ride and not worry.
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Dimond
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PostSubject: Re: Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement   Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 08, 2014 2:38 pm

jmaslak wrote:


The oil seal and bearing must be replaced from the inside - I.E. you have to disassemble the final drive to do it.

You definitely shouldn't pack grease between the bearing and the dust seal.  You'll make a mess as it slings grease out.  

Now that I have the rear wheel off and have viewed the manual transmission diagram on Bearing Replacement on page 11-5, I have no intention on replacing the Oil Seal on Bearing as it would involve a whole lot of complicated (for me) transmission work - and has been pointed out it is not necessary (no loss of oil and bearing is fine).  

The Part Number for the Dust Seal is 91205-MM5-003 which is shown on the parts assembly schematic (online) of the Swingarm.  On page 11-5 of the manual it looks as if it can be pressed on from OUTSIDE the transmission - but when I match the NEW dust seal up against the OLD installed dust seal it seems as if the NEW seal is a bit bigger than the OLD seal making me wonder if indeed it needs to be installed from inside the transmission.  I am not going to try to pull the OLD dust seal out from OUTSIDE the transmission until I can get confirmation that it indeed it can be removed/installed this way - otherwise I will have a major unnecessary repair job.  For now, I am going to pack the space between the Dust Seal and the Bearing with Lithium Grease No. 2, then push in the spacer - then take it out  to remove excess grease before putting it all back together.  I might add that the annular space in a very small cavity that does not hold much grease.  I did this last tire change and now I am seeing a bit of white grease in there - but before that the grease was very nasty/dirty looking.  IMHO keeping grease in this cavity will keep dust from getting to the bearing which in turn will help lengthen the life of my bearing.  I have 45,000 miles on my SWing and hope to extend the bearing life as replacing it would be quite a chore - which I am hoping to forever avoid.  I am also planning on greasing the splines as they are an avenue for dust to get into the space between the bearing and the dust seal.  Last time I did this there was a bit of grease that would splatter on the wheel - but it never got on the rotor - but not much and easly to clean off the wheel.  In 8000 miles I will change my rear tire again and see how things look.  I am only using Lithium Grease No 2 for this as it is suited to this task more so than other greases that may flow more easily.  This is not a hot application.  My theory is that a dust seal working properly will not allow grease to escape.  I pack lithium grease no 2 in all cavities durnig ever front tire change.  No grease escapes past the dust seal during operation during the 16,000 miles it took to wear out the front tire - and when I took the front axle out the grease was as white as snow - it looked very clean.  I am not recommending that you pack any grease - just Lithium No 2.  I would use (or try) lithium no 3 - but it very hard to get - this is the grease Honda recommends to pack the needle bearings/spaces in the final - sometimes folks refer to final drive bearings as dry - in reality it is just a very viscous grease.  

Some may say 'don't fix if ain't broke' - but keeping dust from getting to your bearings is Preventive Maintenance - and if I wait for my bearing(s) to fail when I can extend their life then my maintenance is not very pro-active.  

My question remains, "Has anyone replaced the Right Side Axle Dust Seal and was it done from INSIDE or OUTSIDE the transmission."

Thanks for providing your opinions and insights on this topic.

PS - The difference between the hole ID on transmission (measured from outside the transmission) and the OD of the Dust Seal is 0.095 inches making it, IMHO, impossible to drive the Dust Seal from the outside of the transmission case - but maybe I am wrong.
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jmaslak
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PostSubject: Re: Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement   Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 08, 2014 4:09 pm

I haven't double checked on my scoot, but I'm thinking the 91205-MM5-003 (shown on the transmission diagram, not the swingarm diagram) is a drive shaft seal (that is, the input shaft to the final-drive), not the final shaft seal you're looking for.  I also think it is probably an oil seal, not dust seal.

I think you're looking for 91251-MCT-003 which is a dust seal.  It comes pre-greased (I just looked at it - I ordered all the seals for the final shaft previously, so I was able to hold it in my hand).  This particular seal is a pain in the $#@! to find on Honda's diagrams, but it's #33 here (for a 2012 - obviously you'll have to look at your year in case they changed something): http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Scooter/2012/FSC600A%20AC/SWINGARM/parts.html

EDIT: I changed "input shaft to the transmission" to "input shaft to the final-drive" to make sure nobody gets confused and thinks I'm talking about the crankshaft.
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Mudnman
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Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement Empty
PostSubject: Re: Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement   Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 08, 2014 6:12 pm

The guy that made the video I posted in another thread has a lot of videos.Maybe he has one that will show us.
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Dimond
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Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement Empty
PostSubject: Re: Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement   Right Side Axle 'Dust Seal and Oil Seal' Replacement I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 08, 2014 11:00 pm

jmaslak wrote:

I think you're looking for 91251-MCT-003 which is a dust seal.  It comes pre-greased ....  

Thanks Jmaslak in correcting my misconception. I replaced (10 minute job) the Dust Seal shown on the Swingarm parts diagram 91251 - MCT - 003. I greased both the annular space and the splines - and removed excess grease after assembly and then again after taking things apart - until all excess grease was removed. This Dust Seal was worn as the new one was MUCH tighter - I expect that there will be less grease release during operation that previously has shown up on the wheel - will report back. Also expect less dirt getting into the annular space - but need to wait until the next tire change to check on this. I could see the Oil Seal beyond the dust seal but it seemed like a big job to get it out and to replace it - not worth the risk (for me).

Also replaced the Oil Seal shown on Swingarm parts diagram - 91202-HEO-003. This Oil Seal was not worn as much as the noted Dust Seal above - as it was not quite as loose - and it was still effective in keeping dust - but I replaced it anyway as it was another 10 minute job and I had the part on hand.

I very much appreciate your input.

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