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 Engine Won't Turn Over?

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Dimond
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PostSubject: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 16, 2012 9:13 pm

My SWing has developed a problem (never had this before). In the morning there is a one in five chance that when I turn the key, hold the left brake, and hit the button controlling the starter - nothing happens. I can hear the brake switch when I squeeze the brake - but that is all I seem to hear. I then go through a process of jiggling the key, putting pressure on left then right brake, and putting the side kickstand down/up. It takes me a few tries - and then the starter turns the engine over and it starts right up. The battery is new this past summer and it turns the starter motor quickly when it finally engages. Don't think that the kill switch is involved as I typically never use it. Once the SWing gets going and I am riding for the day I never seem to have a problem - not until some future morning when I first go to start it. I am not sure how to go about diagnosing what the problem may be. Maybe someone can give me a link to a prior thread where this matter has been discussed or otherwise suggest a process. Thanks.
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"Hi Yo"
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 16, 2012 9:55 pm

Dimond, I did a search on starting, but didn't really see anything like your problem. Others have reccomended making sure all contacts are clean and using a cleaner designed for electrical contacts. You are located in the bay area, so condensation may be your problem. Do you park in a protected area? Also, when you squeeze your brake, do you hear a double click? That was something someone else had a problem with. Maybe someone located in an area with fog will be able to help you. Myself, I do much like you did. Jiggle this, squeeze that, close one eye (never can remember which one works) and pray that it starts. I agree that it doesn't sound like the kill switch, but I would definitely start by making sure the kickstand switch is clean. Electrical problems are hard, especially when they are intermittent. Best of luck on getting it sorted.
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MarkB
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 12:13 am

This thread makes me feel a little better, I guess. This morning I couldn't get the Swing to start, no matter what I tried. It was not exactly Dimond's problem, though, because the engine was cranking - but it just wouldn't catch. Admittedly it was a very chilly 6F here in Boston, so I thought the battery was the problem. But I put in on the charger - which also has a 55 amp booster option - and it certainly turned over muchly more lively, but the engine would not engage. I left it on a 2 amp trickle charge for a few hours and tonight it fired up, no problem. I don't know why it wouldn't start this morning - although a colleague suggested maybe the oil was too sluggish from the cold. (The temps warmed up all day to around 30F.) Does this sound right?
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MarkB
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 12:17 am

By the way, per Dimond's problem, I have been noticing a real hesitation on occasion before the Swing would turn over. It seems to me that the reason was that I was not squeezing the left break hard enough. When I give it a serious squeeze, the engine fires up.
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"Hi Yo"
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 1:31 am

MarkB, Has your battery been replaced. I noticed on your signature that you run a lot of accessories. If the bike is an 07, and it's still running the original battery it might not get fully charged when you ride. I don't know your riding habits so no comment on that. 6F and riding, you are the man. I wonder if wearing winter gloves would affect squeezing the brake lever to engage the starter circuit.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 6:24 am

First question-----is it ridden everyday? and is it started everyday? Ridden at least 10 miles in one stretch? Electrical accessories added that could cause constant draw?

Hondas will usually start down to 10 degrees F with no trouble.

Batteries are funny, can last a long time or die within 6 months. Heat is one of the killers.

Pull battery, take to "Batteries Plus" for load test. Go from there. If replacement battery, make sure exact on what Honda specifies.
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spike
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 7:36 am

I just replaced my battery at Battery's Plus, very expensive place! But they can check the battery and your charging system at the same time. My CC amps were low so I opted for a battery. I have noticed that SW's seem somewhat cold blooded for fuel injection. I have several friends who have them and when they sit they crank excessively in my opinion. Had carb bikes that started easier than the swing.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 9:46 am

x


Last edited by bigbird on Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 10:44 am

Hi Dimond,

Sounds like one of the anti-start switches have got a bit of corrosion on the contacts. I would check the big red switch on the right handelbar. Operate it a few times, to clean the contacts, to see if you can get a better engine start.
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MarkB
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 2:01 pm

YI YO and JG, thanks for the questions.

- I did not replace my battery yet - but I just had it tested by my mechanic when he changed my tires and drive belt. (He would have installed my new DR Pulley 24g sliders - but discovered I had a J Costa variator. (sigh)) Anyway, he the battery is fine - doesn't need replacing yet...
...but maybe it's time anyway.

- I don't ride it nearly as often as I'd like. I have to drop my daughter off at pre-school, which is 1/3 of the way to work. Although I have gone back home to get my bike on occasion, I normally don't have time so I'm stuck with the car.

- My constant-draw accessories are the Heated grips and the Heat controller (mounted and connected to the Gerbing flush-mount jack). I always make sure both are turned off before I walk away from the bike. (Same for the Honda dome light - I always check that it's off because I garage it with the seat up.) The power socket is also constant-draw, but I usually don't have anything plugged into it.

Bigbird, thanks for the tip on priming the fuel pump. I'll definitely keep that in mind.
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mick
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 3:23 pm

on my SWing i have to press the brake lever quite hard for it too start
i thought it was down to still the newness of the bike as only 3k on the clock and about 6 months old

last scooter i have had
all i had to do was to barely touch the brake lever/s for it to start

so no i am thinking is this common issue on the SWing
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Waspie
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 3:27 pm

To start the machine there are two micro switches that have to be made, (by pulling in the left brake lever.)

Try starting the 'Wing' without any helmet on and you should be able to hear the switches making. If both switches are not made then the starter will not have power and therefore not engage.
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mick
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 17, 2012 3:31 pm

so the 2 switches are actually in the brake lever themselves?

hence how its needed to pull in firmly for the beast to start?

ahh makes sense then Smile
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DarthJ
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 12:51 am

The first switch is actually the brake light switch. The second is for the ignition. I know on the one I had you had to really haul the lever in to start her up.
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Dimond
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 1:21 pm

Well, thanks to forum members postings you have SOLVED my problem! Turns out that my brakes have been getting spongier (will need to something about that) as my miles have gone up. What used to be a hefty pull on the brake lever is now (with the increased sponginess) a SUPER HEFTY pull on the brake lever to engage the second (ignition) of the micro-switches. I could easily hear the 1st switch engage - but the second switch on my bike is much fainter and I had to put my ear (which no longer works like it used to) right up on the handlebar to realize how far in I had to squeeze the lever to engage the 2nd micro-switch. Well I do feel silly having posed this question now knowing the solution - but far less silly than having my Honda dealer do a costly switch replacement or other diagnostic repairs. Further, why spend a lot of money to fix a problem when the forum experts can show you how to fix it for free! Thanks guys!
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 3:14 pm

Nothing silly about getting a problem solved. Glad it's sorted.
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mick
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 4:52 pm

one thing out of this thread

i am now educated on the starting sequence

being a SWing newbie Smile
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MarkB
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 5:05 pm

And as for me, my problem IS the battery, I'm sure.

In spite of bragging that I always turn off the heated grips before leaving the bike, last night I did NOT. I stopped at CVS to get a few things - and forgot that I had turned on the grips even though the evening was mild and didn't really call for the extra heat. When I came out 20 minutes later, the battery was too exhausted to start the swing. It cost me $35 to have the local garage give me a boost (after calling AAA and learning to my dismay that the basic plan "does not cover service to motorcycles"!)

So, I need a new battery.

Thanks, all.
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mick
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 5:09 pm

when i fit heated grips i always connect the power for the heated grips via a ignition live only so they go off once the ignition is off

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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 5:20 pm

A question for the heated grip users posting on this thread.

Do you have after market heated grips or Honda's own?

I have Honda's own and they automatically turn off when I switch the ignition off. Don't ask me how they're wired, I had them fitted when I bought the bike.
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 5:25 pm

oxford ones i have
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 8:54 pm

MarkB wrote:
(after calling AAA and learning to my dismay that the basic plan "does not cover service to motorcycles"!

What plan does AAA require you to purchase to cover motorcycles??
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 9:29 pm

MarkB wrote:
And as for me, my problem IS the battery, I'm sure.

In spite of bragging that I always turn off the heated grips before leaving the bike, last night I did NOT. I stopped at CVS to get a few things - and forgot that I had turned on the grips even though the evening was mild and didn't really call for the extra heat. When I came out 20 minutes later, the battery was too exhausted to start the swing. It cost me $35 to have the local garage give me a boost (after calling AAA and learning to my dismay that the basic plan "does not cover service to motorcycles"!)

So, I need a new battery.

Thanks, all.

I would charge the battery and then have it tested again. It may still be good after a charge.

honda_silver Wrote:
"
What plan does AAA require you to purchase to cover motorcycles??"

Most times AAA requires an Rv plan as they consider a motorcycle a recreation vehicle.
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DickO
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 9:54 pm

That's right Roger... it's called AAA Plus. I got it when we started RV'ing and held on to it for the cycle (maybe they consider that a "rec" vehicle) coverage when we quit pulling the rec trailer. Haven't had to use it yet, though.
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 10:56 pm

[quote="MarkB"] >>In spite of bragging that I always turn off the heated grips before leaving the bike, last night I did NOT. I stopped at CVS ... and forgot that I had turned on the grips .... When I came out 20 minutes later, the battery was too exhausted to start the swing.<

Sounds as if the prudent thing to do would be to reconfigure the Heated Grips power supply circuit from a direct hot-wire to the battery circuit to a relayed power supply circuit that would only be hot when the ignition is 'on'.

Or you could use Mr Dennis' Positive Connection (for the headlight) plug & play connector and run the Grip Heater switch power supply from that circuit. That way the only time that the Heated Grips would work was if the engine was running.
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MarkB
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 11:19 pm

I used to have AAA Plus for a few years but found I never called them enough to justify the added expense - so I went back to the Basic plan. I'll either have to go back to the Plus plan or find some other roadside assistance plan. (Any suggestions, anyone?)

Mick, I have Oxford heated grips as well. At first I did wire them to my Fuzeblock fuse block as a switched circuit for that very reason. I wanted them to be turned off when I turned the Swing off. But, as the installation sheet warned, it did not get enough juice to turn on. I rewired it per the instructions directly to the battery and it then worked. How did you wire yours so that it is switched?
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Dimond
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 18, 2012 11:50 pm

"What plan does AAA require you to purchase to cover motorcycles??"

I live in California and the AAA Emergency Roadside Assistance plans for autos are Classic, Plus (Plus RV) and Premier. When I had Plus I once got my scooter battery jumped - but maybe when I called it in they did not know it was a scooter. A few moths later I needed a TOW and they said that my plan did not cover it. So, I upgraded to the plan they told me would cover a scooter tow - which was Premier. With Premier you can get a tow of up to 200 miles - and if you have a spouse on the plan you can go up to 400mi. I got the Premier in the hope that I could get my scooter towed back to a local shop if it broke down. The cost (if memory serves me) was (for wife and I) about $80 for Classic, $100 for Plus, and $120 for premier. I am not so sure that the Plus RV covers motorcycles (at least not anymore) - so best to check with your AAA agent rather than assuming you are covered. The thing I like about AAA is that it covers YOU and not your VEHICLE. So if your relative or buddy has a breakdown with no coverage, then you can get them AAA assistance if you are with them. Like most insurance, if you put the same amount of money in the bank you would be way ahead - but I continue to buy the AAA insurance.
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MarkB
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 30, 2012 1:41 am

I installed my new Shorei battery on Saturday and didn't even need to charge it. The swing started up beautifully. An excellent product - only 2/3 the size of the stock battery and less than half the weight. And apparently a lot safer, if I read the accompanying flyer correctly. - no maintenance, will survive a lot of neglect (needs to be run only 2 hours a month, I believe) and when it is finally drained can be safely tossed in the trash. I'll still be looking for jumper cables, as a precaution - but I'll be a lot more relaxed about it now.
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PostSubject: Re: Engine Won't Turn Over?   Engine Won't Turn Over? I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 30, 2012 12:02 pm

MarkB wrote:
I installed my new Shorei battery on Saturday and didn't even need to charge it. The swing started up beautifully.

Supposedly some people tested by putting their battery in the freezer to test the cold start ability and still did not have any issues.

Just a reminder, if the the weather is cold out (not sure which temperature Shorai defines as cold) and the battery is slow starting .... turn the ignition on and let both headlights run for 5-10 seconds.

I am very happy with my Shorai.

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