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 chattering noise once I pass 55 mph

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JeffR_
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john harper
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PostSubject: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 17, 2011 10:11 am

Guys, new to your site, so please give me your opinion on this problem.
I purchase a 2003 silverwing from a older gentlemen with 9900 miles on it. He problably never went over 55 mph on it due to living in the mountains. It was purchased new in 2007, so it sit in a dealership for 4 years before he brought it.
Once I started riding it, it is quiet and runs great up to about 58 mph, then as you pass this speed, I am getting a chattering noise from the drive belt area! I have put on a new rear tire, run injection cleaner in my gas, put in new spark plugs and a new K&N air filter. Should I replace the belt since it is 8 years old with now 10350 miles on it? What else should I replace to stop the noise (rollers, etc)? I am scare to ride off too far with my friends, because they run 70 mph down here in the flat lands of Georgia. Should I just run it hard for a few weeks to see if the noise goes away? Thanks for you answers!
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 17, 2011 11:38 am

john harper wrote:
Should I replace the belt since it is 8 years old with now 10350 miles on it?

I would replace the belt due to age, but keep it as an emergency belt replacement ( if needed ).

john harper wrote:
What else should I replace to stop the noise (rollers, etc)?

Most likely you are hearing the belt slapping the case. If you replace the belt, you can clean out the dust in case. Look at the inside case area on top and below the front variator and you would see where it would be hitting.

You could also try replacing the rollers with Dr Pulley Sliders, which will allow the belt to ride higher on the variator ( reducing the RPMs by about 400-500 ) ... which may help the noise. Clean the ramps of the variator and check the rollers for roundness.

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john harper
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 17, 2011 9:37 pm

Bill, thanks for your answers!
Where can I get Dr. Pulley sliders and what size, weight, etc?
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 17, 2011 9:53 pm

john harper wrote:
Where can I get Dr. Pulley sliders and what size, weight, etc?

http://www.buggypartsnw.com/home?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=386&category_id=42

Honda OEM rollers are 28g ... choosing which weight is a balance between faster acceleration (higher RPM) and MPG (lower RPM) in the 15-45 MPH range.
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 27, 2011 8:39 pm

Guys,
Ok, today I went into the Variator & Belt area using the Pictorial pictures done by JeffR. Thanks Jeff for some great pictures! I put in a new set of Honda OEM roller weight set, a slide piece set, and a new Honda OEM belt. I cleaned everything and torgued the bolt to 76 ft/ lbs as Jeff had suggested. I changed the gear oil while I was doing that also. I saw signs of the belt slapping the case as suggested, but old belt was in excellent shape, so will use as a spare! When engine is cold, no noise is heard as before, but as engine warms up, the noise comes back at about 58-60 mph.
Could it be the engine valves? What should I check next, or is this just normal for the sound to change as I pass 60 mph?
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10, 2012 12:04 am

I know this is an old thread, but I thought that I'd chime in with a "me too" on the chattering noise from the belt area. This is my first post to the group, and it's a long one. Rolling Eyes

John: did you ever find the culprit or a resolution to the noise?

I have a 2004 SWing that I purchased used about 6 months ago with around 5000 miles on the clock. I didn't notice the chatter in the first 500 miles or so, but it has grown louder over the last 5K miles (about 10K miles now). The problem that John describes is exactly where mine happens.

For a description of the noise, imagine the sound that a muffled ice crusher would make... or a gasoline engine lugging/knocking under under load with too much ignition advance and bad gas. It doesn't sound like belt slap, it's sharper than that... more metallic sounding.

As John described, it's not present until over 55mph or so. Full throttle blasts and lower speed roll-ons don't make the noise, so I don't suspect that it's engine or timing related. I would guess that it's clutch or final drive chatter.

It is load-dependent in the early stage at around 55-65mph: light/maintenance throttle and it's almost imperceptible, medium throttle makes it louder, WOT and it almost disappears again until around 65mph. However, once I'm running 65+, it's constant and gets louder with higher speeds and under all throttle loads except closed (coast down). Running above 75-80mph is really noisy and you can feel the vibration throughout the bike.

I took it to Honda of Houston at around 7500 miles for a diagnosis. They took it apart, checked the belt and clutch wear, even took it for a test drive and then said everything was OK. They advised that all Silverwings sound like that, but I have ridden others that were smooth and quiet. (In retrospect, I doubt that they really checked it because of all of the belt dust and flattened rollers that I describe below)

So, following the advice in this wonderful forum, I tore into the scoot and replaced the belt (new Honda part) and installed the Dr Pulley sliders (24g) and slider pieces. The inside of the variator case was FILTHY with belt dust and there were heavy rub marks on the top and bottom of the case. Almost all of the factory rollers have noticeable flat spots and the variator ramps were clogged with belt dust. The dust had actually caked into the variator ramps and changed the profile so the rollers couldn't move freely. A few minutes with a wire brush and hot soapy water fixed that issue. I have not measured the original belt, but it's definitely toast... cords are visible through the top face where it has rubbed the housing.

I cleaned out the housing with compressed air and a nylon brush, then cleaned all of the pulley faces with brake cleaner on a fresh rag. I reassembled the belt and variator assembly according to spec and started the scoot with the cover open to check the belt operation.

At all speeds, idle through about 50mph indicated, I noticed quite a bit of belt slack/jump. Looking side-on at the belt, it didn't appear that the upper or lower span of the belt approached where the outer housing would be (I even used a timing light/strobe to give me a clearer look at things). So, I reassembled the covers and double-checked everything. No extra screws laying around... shiny, tidy and ready to go.

I took it out for a short ride (10-15 miles) to see how everything worked. First, I noticed how much quieter and smoother the initial take off was... no more low speed belt slap or vibration. Second thing was the immediate improvement in acceleration and less vibration/harshness in the handlebars. Third was the reduced RPM at cruising speeds (~500-600 rpm lower).

But, (here's the "me too" part)... the chatter above 55-60mph is still there. It's not quite as loud as before, but that's probably because of the new sliders in the variator and the fresh belt. I checked all of the tupperware for breaks/cracks, tightened everything that needed it, even checked the center and side stand mounts and springs... nothing obviously out of whack. The chatter persists.

After it was warmed up, I even changed out the final drive oil (filthy, as black as the rear tire... Honda didn't do it even though they charged for it!). That didn't make any difference in the noise, but I sure feel better knowing that the maintenance was done right this time.

I could tear into the clutch assembly and/or replace it with a Dr. Pulley HiT clutch (probably will do that eventually anyway), but I'm really grasping at straws now. Does anyone else here have any ideas as to what might be making the chatter? Rear wheel bearings, variator cover bearing, old belt sludge built up in the clutch assembly...?

Thanks in advance,
Aaron Bartlett
Houston, TX
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10, 2012 1:58 am

If you were driving a four wheeled vehicle and had this problem I would say it was spark knock you were hearing.Under hard acceleration the timing is brought back slightly to prevent this.Under moderate acceleration the timing is still advanced and if you had some carbon build up you could here some spark knock.If you do not here the noise with a cold engine(lower combustion temp.and a richer mixture) I would say it is a spark knock condition. This may be one of the reasons Honda added a 02 sensor
on the 07 and newer silver wing.It could also be ECS that controls the spark timing and fuel mixture. The first thing I would try is a different brand of fuel and the highest octane. I think every one will be waiting to here what you find out. Howard
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10, 2012 2:16 am

Good thoughts, Howard. I've been down that path, too... different fuel stations, different grades (usually 89 or 91 octane). Before the belt and slider replacement, I ran a couple of tanks with Chevron Techron additive, but didn't notice any improvement. But it could still be something with the ECU.

I have the scoot torn down again now to do some electrical ugprades (e.g. HID low beam, Stebel horn, Power Commander, etc). I will probably have it back together this weekend to do some further testing. I might get so irritated that I'll find a shop with a dyno... put the thing on tethers, crank it up, and listen to the back end with a mechanic's stethoscope to find the source.

Now, just to qualify that last remark... I am talking about a motorcycle. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10, 2012 7:17 pm

aaron,

I have no idea what the problem could be. There are a few on here that are very knowledgeable about mechanical issues. Have you done any work with the clutch? It seems if the clutch was an issue it would be in more areas than just over 55. I know Terry and Bill are well versed in the mechanics , and I think we also have a couple of mechanics on the forum. Let's see if they will get back to you with this. Good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10, 2012 7:36 pm

Thanks, Jeff. I purchased the scoot used, so I'm not sure if anything has been done to the clutch before me. I haven't done anything to it yet, but I'm wondering if the same belt dust caking is present in the clutch as I found in the variator. If so, that would certainly explain the worsening over time.

The scoot is torn down right now to receive a few unrelated upgrades, but I will hopefully have it together in the next few days to resume troubleshooting. While I wait on a few pieces to complete the upgrades, I'll probably yank the clutch assembly out of there to see how things look. I was just not planning to go that far until I replace it with a Dr. P. HiT unit... we'll see.

I intend to pursue this until resolution because I'm more than just a little OCD with mechanical issues like this. I just hope that I stumble upon the solution sooner rather than later for my budget's sake. The upgrades and changes are going in one at a time so I can hopefully narrow down the exact culprit of the noise. Whatever the cause and/or resolution, I will certainly post the results here for everyone else's benefit.

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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 10, 2012 10:40 pm

aaronb, while you have the scoot on the rack, you could try to isolate whether the noise comes from the engine or the wheels/clutch/rear gearing.

Open the variator case and remove the variator and the belt. With the belt removed, run the engine through its paces. If you hear the noise you know its an engine problem. If you don't hear it, its a wheel, gear or clutch problem. Don't forget that it might be a front wheel bearing, too.

If you suspect a wheel, a good time to spin it by hand is with the belt removed. You can use a belt sander to spin the wheel to higher speeds than you can do by hand.

Since the same RPM can be 30 mph or 70 mph, and you hear the noise around the 58 mph mark, I will guess that it is not an engine problem.

Please let us know what you find out. These Silverwings have so few problems that most of us don't have to be mechanically inclined.
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 11, 2012 12:02 am

I once had a Goldwing with a chattering noise from the rear....divorce fixed it. Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 11, 2012 3:16 am

I believe if you remove the belt you would not have any load on the engine, It would be just like ruining in neutral if you had one. Another thing Honda could have done would be to install a knock sensor.With a automatic transmission you can lug the engine down some what and here a spark knock. Running it on a dyno you would be the best way to duplicate running on the road. Howard
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 11, 2012 12:43 pm

x


Last edited by bigbird on Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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aaronb
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 02, 2012 11:33 pm

Sorry to flake out and not reply on the topic for so long... I had some issues that kept me away from my project for a few weeks.

bigbird wrote:

You've R&R'd the variator. I'll assume there are no wear grooves in either the inner or outer drive faces.
Next place to look is the driven faces and clutch.
One other thing to check is rear wheel balance and tire wear.

Bigbird: following your tip on the wear grooves, I decided to examine the variator faces closer. They did have some slight grooving or banding in three distinct ranges. The driven faces have some slight polishing, but nothing like the front ones. If I can figure out how to post pics, they might be of use to someone in the future.

I pulled the clutch assembly and found what is very likely the source of the chatter. The clutch shoes are very rough with pitting and pieces of sintered metal embedded into them. Whether the metal bits are a normal part of the composition is unknown... I've never seen new shoes for comparison. However, there is pronounced scoring and banding in the clutch bell. There is also some spotty bluing toward the outer edge, but this appears to be an artifact from the factory welding of the outer flywheel/weight.

So, I have replaced both of the variator faces (inner/movable & outer) and the clutch bell. Because the clutch shoes were also in question, I installed the Dr. P HiT clutch instead of replacing the factory shoes. The clutch shoe and pillow springs are defaults for now until I get it back together and test it for a few miles.

This should be a good wear test for the clutch assembly for anyone else that's interested because I'm starting out with new parts on all of the wear items. Again, I will take pics of all of the pieces in their pristine states for future comparison. I can post all of the pics here or on external servers, whichever works best... guidance/opinions here would be appreciated.

Now, my next minor hurdle: my wife decided to "help me" by cleaning some of my work area in the garage, so my Honda shop manual has gone on walkabout. Does anyone have the torque specs for the clutch basket bolts (6 bolts securing the clutch basket to driven face)?

Thanks again to all that have offered suggestions. I hope to have an answer soon that I can contribute back to the group.

--
Aaron Bartlett
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 03, 2012 12:45 am

x


Last edited by bigbird on Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 03, 2012 11:31 am

I replaced my clutch with a HiT clutch about 3 weeks ago. I was not having any problems with the original, but I was interested in performance increases. I installed it just as it came out of the box - red and pink springs were installed at the factory.

The clutch area did have a lot of dust built up in the bell and the clutch itself. A shop vac took care of that. The bell itself was smooth, with no discoloration.

The HiT clutch has improved acceleration off the line, as well as mid range speeds. It is not as strong an improvement as a J Costa variator, but still noticeable. I also ordered 24g and 21g Dr P sliders, but have not installed them yet.

I have only had the chance to ride it 3 or 4 times since installation, for a total of about 120 miles. The clutch seems to begin to engage at about 2800 RPMs, but you really do not begin to move until 3200 RPMs. Soon after that, you get a slight bump (I guess that is when the clutch locks up) and you motor away at a rapid pace.

I notice a distinct chatter/shudder as the clutch shoes begin to engage the clutch bell, but it is lessening as the miles go by. I will wait another 200-300 miles to see if it gets as smooth as stock before attempting to change the pillow springs. My desire would be to make the initial engagement of the clutch smoother, if the parts do not smooth out with with a few more miles. If I understand the process correctly, pillow springs with a lighter kg rating (15kg vs 25kg) will allow the clutch pads to engage the clutch bell sooner (at lower RPMs). Can anyone confirm this?

aaronb, I just took a look at my original clutch and did not see any metal bits in the friction material. It is very smooth, both to the eye and to touch. I did notice that only half of each pad was showing signs of wear - evidently only the inner half of each shoe was contacting the clutch bell. Despite that, the factory clutch worked well. Hope this info helps, and please let us know your results.
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 03, 2012 12:09 pm

In my Humble "Opinion."

Change the belt after it has been setting for a period of time put in the sliders and you should be in business.

I have a 2005 Swing that I made these mods to and it is nice an quiet.

Old Dave
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 03, 2012 12:17 pm

x



Last edited by bigbird on Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 03, 2012 2:49 pm

buddy19520 wrote:
aaronb, I just took a look at my original clutch and did not see any metal bits in the friction material. It is very smooth, both to the eye and to touch. I did notice that only half of each pad was showing signs of wear - evidently only the inner half of each shoe was contacting the clutch bell. Despite that, the factory clutch worked well. Hope this info helps, and please let us know your results.

I have taken pics and a couple of short videos of the original vs. new parts. I'll try to post them here later today. The faces of the shoes look really hideous with pits of missing material and ground-in metal shavings. I'm sure the shavings are from the clutch bell. Whatever initated the scoring is unknown, but I'm sure glad that I pulled everything out as it would have certainly gotten worse over time.
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 08, 2012 12:21 am

I finally got the scoot back together yesterday evening and took it out today for my work commute. The chatter IS GONE! I put about 80 miles on it today and haven't heard the chatter at all yet (fingers crossed).

The factory clutch assembly seems to have been the source. I haven't disassembled the unit to check the springs or take any measurements, so I don't know for sure if anything is damaged other than the shoes.

As for the HiT clutch, I haven't noticed any lock-up bump or other perceptible indication that the shoes have locked. I should probably post those observations and questions elsewhere... perhaps one of the a threads for the HiT.

Here are some pics of the original clutch bell showing the wear and scoring.
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Clutch bell wear #1
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Clutch bell wear #2
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PostSubject: Re: chattering noise once I pass 55 mph   chattering noise once I pass 55 mph I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 08, 2012 12:27 am

Here are pics of the 2 worst shoes. All of them have metal chunks embedded into the friction material, but it seems that I can only post 2 pics at a time.
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Clutch shoe #1
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Clutch shoe #2
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