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 More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal

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Cosmic_Jumper
n7188u
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n7188u
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 23
Location : Port Orange, FL
Points : 4189
Registration date : 2013-02-07

More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal Empty
PostSubject: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13, 2022 3:14 pm

Hi,

As I continue my Silverwing rebuild I have a couple of questions:

1.- The manual calls for the pulley holder tool 07AMB-MCTA100 to remove the driven pulley (or face) nut. As I look at it it seems to be this tool will not fit this pulley. Is the intent in the manual to have you lock the front one and remove the rear nut while the belt holds the rear pulley? I don't have the rear wheel on so using the brakes is not an option.

2.- Per the manual maintenance section, I am going to check the clutch shoes. Is it necessary to disassemble the driven section to just replace the shoes? I am asking to see if I should plan on buying the Clutch Spring Compressor tool 07ZME-MCTA100.

So far all is going well.

Thanks for the feedback.
Chris
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Cosmic_Jumper
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Cosmic_Jumper


Number of posts : 4416
Age : 81
Location : damn near Philadelphia, PA
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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13, 2022 4:06 pm

Here is a DIY pulley holder tool. It actually works better than the official Honda tool because the M6 ‘pins’ are (or can be) longer than the official tool’s nub sized pins. For all practical purposes 2” long 1/4-20 bolts can be substituted for those M6 bolts. That way they will reach further into the variator face and you won’t need a third hand to hold the tool in place.

More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal C274d810

Regarding the Driven Pulley, the 22mm nut holding the DP assembly is only torqued to ~45 lbs ft so you could probably use a strap wrench, or a friend, to hold the clutch bell while the nut is loosened. Theoretically the official Honda tool is supposed to be able to reach behind the clutch bell and engage the holes in the back side to lock up the DP assembly. Though I’ve never heard of anyone needing to go to that extreme or mentioning that the tool actually fit there.

Regarding disassembling the DP assembly there are a few posts here showing how others have accomplished that without resorting to a fancy spring compressor. Just use the Search function to find more information.

Here’s one link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7hlZFXiymXkNGtGWUpFVEZGcWM/view?resourcekey=0-bGJ6uUgk8eQkhkiNFZy17Q


Last edited by Cosmic_Jumper on Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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n7188u
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 23
Location : Port Orange, FL
Points : 4189
Registration date : 2013-02-07

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13, 2022 4:18 pm

Thanks again Tim for the help. Will check this home made tool. Don't see how that plate would fit the rear of the DP but haven't really look at it closely.

I have been reading other posts about working on the clutch spring and bell install. Just wondered if I needed anything just to check and replace the clutch shoes if needed. Seems not.

Chris
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1Wingman1
Maxi-Scooter Rider
Maxi-Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 125
Age : 82
Location : Jacksonville, Florida
Points : 4302
Registration date : 2013-01-19

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13, 2022 4:51 pm

You can use an impact wrench on the driven pulley nut. Also, you can quickly slide the rear wheel back onto the axle making sure it slides onto the splines and then take advantage of the inertia of the wheel by placing a breaker bar and socket on the nut and striking the breaker bar with a hammer. You can handle that little job solo. If you love your tools you should use a soft faced hammer.

You won't need to deal with the big spring if you just replace shoes. It is best to replace shoes and the bell (also called clutch outer) at the same time. Then they can seat together much easier. I learned that the hard way. Mine would slip and I had to take it apart and sand the shoes about 900 times.
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zrx212
Silver Wing Expert
Silver Wing Expert



Number of posts : 520
Age : 64
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1809
Registration date : 2020-12-26

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13, 2022 5:54 pm

The easiest way to remove both front pulley bolt and rear pulley nut is an impact driver, otherwise you will need some kind of holder like the one pictured above/below, the rear pulley free spins on the transmission input shaft anytime rpms are under approx. 2k, so holding the rear pulley is futile, you need to hold the back of the clutch bell with a similar tool as the front pulley tool, then loosen the nut, but tool needs to fit properly, you don't really have a lot of room, etc. and there a chance of damaging/bending the clutch bell, case, etc. It would be far easier/safer to install wheel and RH swingarm,etc., then use the rear brake to hold the transmission/clutch bell shaft, some guys stick 2x4 in the wheel spokes, but you can also break stuff, doing so. Btw you can service the clutch once the rear pulley is off, no need to remove spring, but I always recommend a full clean and lube of rear pulley, plenty info here, search for it, I also have lots of pics where and tips on my own extensive servicing of cvt, where to find parts, etc. just LMK, I'll send links.

BTW I do not recommend using impact to install pulleys, although is regularly done by shops, etc.

This my own design tool for holding pulleys, had it for years, just to give you a general idea.

More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal Swpull10
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zrx212
Silver Wing Expert
Silver Wing Expert



Number of posts : 520
Age : 64
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1809
Registration date : 2020-12-26

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13, 2022 5:59 pm

BTW if you run into a snag or need some help, LMK, have tools, will travel, not very far from you.
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sonuvabug
Silver Wing Expert
Silver Wing Expert
sonuvabug


Number of posts : 930
Location : Mid-Western Ontario Canada
Points : 6041
Registration date : 2010-09-15

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14, 2022 8:14 am

zrx212 wrote:
BTW if you run into a snag or need some help, LMK, have tools, will travel, not very far from you.

Chris, you've got a real opportunity with the kind offer made above by zrx212. If it were me, I'd jump all over it.  

I wish someone near me had his know-how and made a similar offer when I bought my first SWing 15 years ago.

It may cost you a lunch or some tasty adult beverages (take away of course) but trust me, getting guidance and assistance from one of the site's most knowledgeable members is well worth the investment in my opinion.
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zrx212
Silver Wing Expert
Silver Wing Expert



Number of posts : 520
Age : 64
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1809
Registration date : 2020-12-26

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14, 2022 10:47 am

" It may cost you a lunch or some tasty adult beverages (take away of course) but trust me, getting guidance and assistance from one of the site's most knowledgeable members is well worth the investment in my opinion. "

Thanks, sonuvabug, I really appreciate your comments, in all honesty, I "kinda" cringe when I hear the words "Taking it to the dealer" because they know better  scratch or that "in some threads", the OP's comments suggest they are not familiar with the repairs on scooters, their mechanical operation and in general are not mechanically inclined. I realize some want to save $$ or just want to DIY, etc. Yes the shop manual is a good reference/starting point, but we all know is not perfect, a lot of things can be done easier/cheaper!! Just a PSA, no pun intended.

I've have always enjoyed working/repairing mechanical things (even if I don't get paid or they don't need fixing  scratch ), especially finding a solution to problems(troubleshooting) and/or finding a better/easier way to DIY things. IAC one of the main reasons we come here is to receive or give advice, nothing wrong in helping other in person, hands on, that's what we used to do back when? before computers and smartphones, etc.
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n7188u
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 23
Location : Port Orange, FL
Points : 4189
Registration date : 2013-02-07

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14, 2022 2:50 pm

Thanks guys, and in particular your offer, zrx212.

I tend to DIY because:

1.- Generally had bad luck with taking things to shops.
2.- I am VERY picky. So almost always I get upset when I pay for a job and find I could have done better.
3.- Since I was a kid, I have always repaired or rebuilt my own cars, motorcycles, boats and, gulp, airplanes (which I have either built or restored (I hold an A&P license)).
4.- If I paid for having these things maintained I could not afford to own any of the above (I'm not really wealthy, just handy and tend to own relatively inexpensive things I restore or build).

So far the work on the SW has been quite straightforward (except for removing the swingarm to get the rear wheel off, man was that BAD!).

So if I hit a snag I will call you for sure ZRX212. Actually, if the parts are moveable, I can always use my "magic carpet" and get to Ocala to meet you in 1/2 an hour Smile

Chris

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steve_h80
Silver Wing Guru
Silver Wing Guru



Number of posts : 1002
Location : Teesdale, UK
Points : 4039
Registration date : 2016-05-15

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14, 2022 4:37 pm

The words "impact wrench" and "motorcycle" should never appear in the same sentence.
We are not dealing with a set of Scammell wheel nuts.
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zrx212
Silver Wing Expert
Silver Wing Expert



Number of posts : 520
Age : 64
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1809
Registration date : 2020-12-26

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14, 2022 8:33 pm

steve_h80 wrote:
The words "impact wrench" and "motorcycle" should never appear in the same sentence.
We are not dealing with a set of Scammell wheel nuts.

I've have used impact wrenches to remove/install fasteners on anything from bicycles to large commercial aircraft without any issues or unexpected results, in lots of instances they were specified! When we say "impact wrench" most people think/default to a large/powerful air driven wheel nut tool, nowadays there's all kinds to match your tightening torque needs. Most motorcycle "production" shops (or any repair shop) use them daily, sometimes is the only tool capable of doing certain tasks efficiently. I don't advocate torquing fasteners by "feel" or "Good-n-tight" with an impact wrench, but tightening "SOME" fasteners to a reference mark or " by feel" with proper torque range impact tool, is widely used/acceptable. IAC a seasoned mechanic will know which impact tool is appropriate and how to properly use it, a shade tree DIY scratch.
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steve_h80
Silver Wing Guru
Silver Wing Guru



Number of posts : 1002
Location : Teesdale, UK
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Registration date : 2016-05-15

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 15, 2022 2:40 am

I think you're expanded on what I said ZRX212, which I should done in the first place.
I confess I have used air to undo things, but usually it's easier just to use a breaker bar. It's the goons out there using a impact wrench to tighten things that scares me. All important fasteners have a specified torque but if the impact gun is at hand the goon is tempted to use it rather than a decent torque wrench.
That aside I still hear tales of folks using a torque wrench, then adding a bit more "just to be sure"!
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zrx212
Silver Wing Expert
Silver Wing Expert



Number of posts : 520
Age : 64
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1809
Registration date : 2020-12-26

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 15, 2022 2:43 pm

When engineers give you a torque value, they take into account normal tool variance %, etc., etc.
For a torque wrench to be really effective, regardless of brand name or cost, it should be checked for calibration, especially when new, otherwise you are just applying "consistent" torque within the error of the tool, checking calibration is actually fairly easy DIY procedure "Google it". A good quality torque wrench that is not abused (dropped, left at a setting or lowered below is minimum value, etc.), should go 2,500-5,000 cycles (lifetime ??) without need of calibration on a home/DIY setting, professionals follow industry standards.
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n7188u
Scooter Rider
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Number of posts : 23
Location : Port Orange, FL
Points : 4189
Registration date : 2013-02-07

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 15, 2022 3:13 pm

My torque wrenches are over 20+ years old and I check them every two or three years (I have a calibrator at work) and they are still good.

My take on this: I never tighten anything without a torque wrench unless it is something totally non critical (screws, and I even use a torque driver in some cases as in composites). Even if I don't have a listed torque in the maintenance manual I have lists with generic torque values that can be applied to fasteners of different materials on threads again of different materials.

Call me picky but I work on my airplanes and remember that they are made, including the engine, of aluminum. Not unlike many parts in the SW. The torque needed to strip aluminum threads is not high so the range between a fastener being loose and too tight, were you could yield the threads, is not as wide as if you work with steel. Me, I sleep (and fly) better if I know I applied the precise torque recommended. In 30 years never had a single issue with loose or stripped fasteners (that I worked on, can't say the same with stuff other people worked on and failed on me).

And besides, I find torque wrenches fun to use and cool tools to own. I have a small one that is 1/4" drive and it is a sweet tool.

Chris
Chris

Regarding impact wrenches, I can see were they could be useful for removing bolts or nuts but never bought one to resist the temptation.

Chris

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zrx212
Silver Wing Expert
Silver Wing Expert



Number of posts : 520
Age : 64
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1809
Registration date : 2020-12-26

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PostSubject: Re: More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal   More questions on my Silverwing rebuild effort - belt removal I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 15, 2022 8:09 pm

Off Topic !!
BTW, your board name n7188u(your plane tail number?), reminded of one of my favorite planes that I worked on a lot,
N781UA(B777-200), just about a month back in service after the engine issue grounding. Hard to believe it's 1st revenue flight was in 1996. Good Times ✈😎
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