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 battery voltage : wont start

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zrx212
steve_h80
fredril
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fredril
Scooter Rider
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Location : Estero, FL
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 07, 2022 9:42 pm

At first lights came on and when I pushed starter button everything went dead.  Now one of the three relays vibrates when the key is turned on but there's no power to anything (except that relay of course:).  Battery registers 12.3 but when I turn key it drops to about 5 and when I push start button it goes down to 3.  Can I try to start it by jumping starter relay or is that not a good idea?  Sounds to me like there may be a wire shorting somewhere between starter button and starter relay but that's just a guess and I have no idea where to look for anything.  I did take screws off starter button assembly but everything looked alright from just looking at it.  Thanks for anyone's help.
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steve_h80
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08, 2022 4:04 am

Does is start with a boost starter pack or jump leads from another battery? If so I would say dead battery.
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
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Number of posts : 398
Age : 63
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1115
Registration date : 2020-12-26

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08, 2022 7:24 am

Like Steve said try jump starting from another vehicle or battery, make sure other vehicle is not running or better yet disconnect battery lead from second vehicle if possible, 101 troubleshooting, check your fuses (rarely the real cause of issue, but indicates a short), if scooter starts, battery is suspect/bad, try charging overnight at 2 amps, let sit for 1 hour and check voltage with meter, a 12v battery resting voltage bellow 12.4 is a bad battery, under 11.00 volts while cranking is shot. you can have battery load tested for free at any big box auto parts or at "Batteries Plus bulbs" store.

The relay vibrating and lights dimming is obviously low voltage/amperage.

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fredril
Scooter Rider
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Number of posts : 8
Age : 79
Location : Estero, FL
Points : 153
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: battery voltage   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08, 2022 3:21 pm

Having a bit of trouble navigating this site as I'm brand new to it but giving my best.  Had to make 2 photos smaller so they would be accepted.  Battery is still 12.2 after 16 hrs so quite sure it's not battery.  Lights or horn do not work at all.  Tried jumping the terminals of what I think is the starter relay that should send juice to the starter but got nothing.  When I turn key on, the single front relay vibrates and buzzes.  When I jumped the terminals, brake lever was squeezed and kickstand was up.  Maybe should try it and push starter button but I think that's where short starts as when I push starter button the voltage on battery drops way down and then goes back up when I release it.  I took starter button holder apart and couldn't see anything bad.  What next?
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1Wingman1
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08, 2022 9:49 pm

This site is absolutely no good................................if you don't pay attention to the people here who have experienced the trouble that you are having.

The voltage level at rest in newer batteries will quite often read as though they are perfectly good when they actually have bad cells and no power. Have it tested as recommended by zrx212..
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
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Number of posts : 398
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Location : Ocala, FL
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08, 2022 11:01 pm

fredril, you never commented if this was a sudden failure on a normally operating scooter or it has been sitting for a while, etc Question Kind of a guessing game scratch In any case all the symptoms you described on your 1st and 2nd post indicate a dead/unusable battery, until that unknown is resolved, is really futile to suggest other possibilities, no point in repeating same suggestions already given!!

Troubleshooting is a logical process of steps, ignore one and you are playing Catch-22.

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fredril
Scooter Rider
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Number of posts : 8
Age : 79
Location : Estero, FL
Points : 153
Registration date : 2022-07-07

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 08, 2022 11:44 pm

Ok, I'll have the battery tested.  I will say that the bike had been running fine and if I let it sit for 3 or more weeks, it would turn over slowly and not start and I would charge it and it would be fine.  When I first went to start it, I turned the key and the headlight came on brightly so I figured that it was worth a try to start it.  When I pushed the start button, there was a noise that scared me and from then on there was no power to the headlight or horn or anything.  I've put the charger on the bike twice since then and still no headlight at all but I'll take the battery tomorrow and have it tested or buy a new one.  I hope that you're all right and that it's the battery.
Thank you for your continued help and interest.
zrx212-Thanks for the info on how and where to get the battery tested.
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 398
Age : 63
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1115
Registration date : 2020-12-26

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 09, 2022 12:31 am

" When I pushed the start button, there was a noise that scared me and from then on there was no power to the headlight or horn or anything."

And that qualifies as new/unknown information, "maybe" something else failed and killed the battery?


"I hope that you're all right and that it's the battery."

We never said it was just the battery, I said ...

"In any case all the symptoms you described on your 1st and 2nd post indicate a dead/unusable battery, until that unknown is resolved, is really futile to suggest other possibilities "

Steve said ...

Does is start with a boost starter pack or jump leads from another battery? If so I would say dead battery.
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steve_h80
Silver Wing Expert
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Number of posts : 911
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 09, 2022 4:51 am

When my battery died it just rolled over and croaked.
It started in the morning, lasted and restarted all day, but was having non of it on the last restart - which fortunately was at home.I charged it overnight, it then showed full charge, lights and horn worked but attempting to start just clicked the relay and nothing.
The bike fired up fine on the booster.
The moral being batteries can die without warning and show a full charge but not have enough umph to turn over the starter.
Hopefully this is what you experienced and it's an easy, cheap fix - but if you've tried starting it with bits shorted out it's anyone's guess.
Of course it could be something horrible, terminal and/or expensive... I hope not.
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GHM-PM
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GHM-PM


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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 09, 2022 7:40 am

Bear in mind that HEAT kills more batteries than most anything. I live where it is VERY hot so I figure 2-3 years is the max I can hope for, and no I don't invest in Odyssey batteries (nearly 200 bucks) or expensive lithium models that need a specific charger... I order two of these and replace my Forza and SWing batteries the same time:

https://www.batterysharks.com/Honda-600CC-FSC600-Silver-Wing-2002-2012-p/fsc600silverwing_m12-11-210-k.htm

I have not had any problems and could replace them EVERY year and still be cheaper than one of the mega expensive brands! YMMV

Good luck.
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 398
Age : 63
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1115
Registration date : 2020-12-26

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 09, 2022 8:18 am

" I order two of these and replace my Forza and SWing batteries the same time:

https://www.batterysharks.com/Honda-600CC-FSC600-Silver-Wing-2002-2012-p/fsc600silverwing_m12-11-210-k.htm "

Not a bad deal with discount coupon is $44.70 shipped TMD bounce , at least it's got ID labels, the new one dealer installed when I got my SW600 20 months ago, has no labels or markings, must be TaiTwo (vs TaiOne Rolling Eyes ) , but so far good, batteries are a crap shoot, I purchased a $150+ battery, years ago, that was nearly dead next day, after a 2hr ride in the mountains(i.e. middle of nowhere) Mad

The thing the SW (and most vehicles) have parasitic draw on battery, regular use or trickle charge helps.
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fredril
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 8
Age : 79
Location : Estero, FL
Points : 153
Registration date : 2022-07-07

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 09, 2022 10:43 pm

Just found out the battery goes in sideways:)! Live and learn. Back to finding either a blown fuse or a short somewhere.
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GHM-PM
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GHM-PM


Number of posts : 2316
Age : 70
Location : Bullhead City, AZ
Points : 6411
Registration date : 2012-05-17

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 09, 2022 11:17 pm

fredril wrote:
Just found out the battery goes in sideways:)!  Live and learn.  Back to finding either a blown fuse or a short somewhere.

As long as you get a sealed battery (AGM), the battery being sideways is not a problem.
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 398
Age : 63
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1115
Registration date : 2020-12-26

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 10, 2022 11:49 am

" Just found out the battery goes in sideways:)! Live and learn. Back to finding either a blown fuse or a short somewhere. "

 Not really knowing what that means and/or lack of details, lights came on ? I'll have to guess the battery issue/question is no more ??, if that's the case ??, the next step is to eliminate other possibilities, bad starter and/or engine not turning ?, simply jump big terminal post on starter solenoid, scooter should crank Irregardless if switch is on or off, yes/no ? then continue to check for good grounds at common frame ground point under the seat, then on items in the ignition and starting system, like fuses, shorts, etc. BTW all 5 relays on scooter are same p/n, the 3 relays that are behind left side cover are interchangeable, you can swap the last one (fuel cut off) with other two for troubleshhoting.

These diagrams may help ..

battery voltage : wont start Screen13
battery voltage : wont start Screen12
battery voltage : wont start Screen11
?.
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fredril
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 8
Age : 79
Location : Estero, FL
Points : 153
Registration date : 2022-07-07

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 11, 2022 9:40 pm

I did get the battery checked and they said it's good and strong at 12.3.  I'm not sure I've found the starter relay because I can't hear any clicks.  Is there a way to test the starter motor?  I have a repair guy coming in a few days to pick up the scooter but if I can fix it first, it will save me a lot of money.  I just don't know where to start to find what I think is a short somewhere.

Just saw the diagram that zrx212 sent.  That may help.  Thanks so much.  

The main relay is the one that buzzes when I turn the key on.  That's the only indication the scooter is getting any power at all.  I'll try jumping the starter next.

I did try jumping the solenoid but one of the screw tops had no power and the other one did but I don't remember which one. I tried crossing the two but nothing happened. When you say jumping it, what do I jump it to? Thanks again!


Last edited by fredril on Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 398
Age : 63
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1115
Registration date : 2020-12-26

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 11, 2022 9:56 pm

fredril, Yes, it's kind of hard to understand how all these systems work together, etc. Even with a lifetime in several areas of vehicle repair/ maintenance, still hard to troubleshoot wiring issues, worse thru a computer/keyboard, Wish I was closer and not so busy, etc. Would definitely give you a hand, like any gear head I love a challenge and the learning experience, Let us now the repair/solution, may help others. Good Luck
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 398
Age : 63
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1115
Registration date : 2020-12-26

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 12, 2022 8:10 pm

Went out in garage and got a few pics (BTW very hot out there sunny ), if you jump the big nut terminals on the starter relay switch, your applying direct voltage/current to starter motor, starter should operate/engine should crank (not start) as long as you hold a screwdriver across the terminals, key/switch does not have to be on, If not, battery is bad, starter is bad, engine internal starter clutch is faulty or engine itself is somehow locked (worst case scenario  scratch ) , BTW reply with new message on this thread, updating old post won't trigger a reply message for others following the thread.

battery voltage : wont start Starte10
battery voltage : wont start Starte11
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fredril
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Number of posts : 8
Age : 79
Location : Estero, FL
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 12, 2022 10:15 pm

Thanks for the photos. Just went out and jumped the starter relay switch. Got a little spark but nothing else. Turned the key on and the main relay buzzes but when I then jumped the starter relay, the buzzing went off. No idea what that means. Checked the fuse boxes under the seat again and they're all good. I'll check the main fuse again tomorrow but when I checked it the other day it was good.
I hope this is what you meant by starting a new message. I kind of know where the starter motor is but don't see any way I can get to it without taking a lot of stuff apart. Therefore, I can't connect a wire to it to see it it will turn the motor over. Do you think there's a way to poke a wire in there to at least test it? Thanks again for all your help. I really appreciate it. The bike always ran so well and when the battery ran down, it would still turn over but not strongly enough to start, but the lights still came on. Parked it and the next time I went to start it, it seemed like something blew and then nothing at all has worked since. Crazy:)!
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1Wingman1
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Number of posts : 101
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 12, 2022 11:19 pm

You can easily turn your engine to determine if it is locked up. Very unlikely. There is a plug to the left of and within an inch of the place where you check and fill the engine with oil. It requires a hex key and then you insert the appropriate socket and turn counter clockwise to turn the crankshaft.

If you did not see your battery load tested there is the possibility that someone simply tested for voltage and did not apply a load to it to prove that it is strong enough to do the job.

But your original post said that the battery voltage was 12.3 and by turning the key the voltage dropped to 5 volts. At that point the starter had nothing to do with things. By shorting those relay terminals nothing was involved but the starter and battery. So the battery is involved under both conditions. Troubleshooting is mostly a process of elimination.
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fredril
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Number of posts : 8
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Location : Estero, FL
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Registration date : 2022-07-07

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13, 2022 12:04 am

Thanks Wingman. But wouldn't there be at least enough juice to either light up the dash or give a little light to the headlight? You're right that they didn't test it for load. I asked her but she said her equipment wouldn't test that particular kind of battery, or at least that size battery, for anything but the voltage. My battery tender would flash when I first put it on but would stay solid after an hour. Should I still take it somewhere else where they could test the load? Thanks for staying with me on this.
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1Wingman1
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1Wingman1


Number of posts : 101
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13, 2022 1:11 am

Like many other members who have posted in this thread I strongly encourage you to buy a new battery. From the beginning everything has pointed in that direction.
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
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Number of posts : 398
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Location : Ocala, FL
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13, 2022 4:13 am

Well, I'm a little confused here, on 7/11 you said "I did get the battery checked and they said it's good and strong at 12.3. " and now "You're right that they didn't test it for load.". ??
Don't know how I missed the "12.3".
We are literally exactly at the same point we started, 12.3 is still a weak/dead battery, just replace the battery and try it. 1st thing any good mechanic will do anyway for more $$$, even if you manage to start it with a jump start, etc., a weak/shorted battery will probably damage your charging system $$$, not worth it, IMO.
BTW/PSA/Warning ⚠ do not jump start from a running vehicle or use a booster charger, it will damage electrical components on scooter.
I'm really confused as why you would not replace the battery as all symptoms point to it. 🤔🤐
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zrx212
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Number of posts : 398
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Points : 1115
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13, 2022 6:58 am

BTW most Walmart's will have the battery in stock YTZ12S around $50+tax thumbs up
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Mech 1 twa
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Mech 1 twa


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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 13, 2022 8:50 pm

Better battery with a bit more CCA cold cranking amps if from Honda ST1300. 225 VS 205 for SW. It fits in battery box no problems. FYI. As for the brand that's up to you.
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 398
Age : 63
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1115
Registration date : 2020-12-26

battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14, 2022 9:54 am

Mech 1 twa wrote:
Better battery with a bit more CCA cold cranking amps if from Honda ST1300. 225 VS 205 for SW.  It fits in battery box no problems. FYI. As for the brand that's up to you.

Good info there, will keep that on mind for my next replacement.

With all this battery talk, decided to check my 2 scooters batteries, connections, charging, etc. Both scooters voltage is 12.8V after shutdown and 12.6V even after sitting a few days, both charge above 14V, so is all good.

No updates from OP scratch
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fredril
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 14, 2022 10:44 pm

Gentlemen, thanks again for all of your consistent advice about checking or getting a new battery. Of course I knew my battery was good because it always read above 12v and the woman that tested it at
Batteries Plus said it was good. I also knew that since the light or horn or instrument panel didn't come on, that there was something else that was wrong with my Silverwing. No one ever answered why the battery read good but the lights would not come on, just kept telling me to try a new battery. Just to prove my point, I finally took the advice to go to Walmart and get a new battery, which of course is no longer $50 but is now $60. Charged it like they said to, installed it, put the kickstand up, pushed the starter button, then squeezed the brake handle like was suggest to me, then listened to the purr of my engine. Am now eating a large piece of pie, humble pie, along with some crow. My deepest apology for thinking that after 60 years of motorcycle riding and repairing, that I knew all there was to know about stuff. And my most sincere thanks to all that were persistent and continued to try to get me to listen and finally at least got me to try your suggestions. Please accept my apology if I was a little stubborn and thanks for saving me lots of money.
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MikeO
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battery voltage : wont start Empty
PostSubject: Re: battery voltage : wont start   battery voltage : wont start I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 15, 2022 3:36 am

Ah, yes, but when someone else comes along with the same problem you'll be able to recount your 'adventure' and put them straight!
Everything happens for a purpose. Wink
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