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 Clutch engagement issue

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mrseanharford1
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PostSubject: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 13, 2021 9:08 pm

Bought 2007 Silver Wing with about 10,500 miles. Decided to replace belt and found that clutch had to be replaced because metal was torn from drum and was embedded in the pads in many places.

Replaced drum, shoes, small springs, and dampers. I did not stretch the springs any more than was absolutely necessary to install. The pads start to engage at 2,000 RPM even though I have 24 gram Dr Pulley sliders. Not what I expected and I have no explanation.

I weighed the sliders and I received the correct ones. Engine RPM at a true 70 MPH is 5,800. The pads probably have not seated fully just yet. I used all OEM parts.

I am not dissatisfied but am puzzled. Any ideas as to why the pads contact at 2,000 RPM?
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 13, 2021 11:30 pm

IIRC ~2000 rpm is when the clutch shoes start to engage the clutch bell. That’s determined by the clutch springs. Lighter (or heavier for that matter) variator weights aren’t going to change that engagement. 

What would change the engagement rpm would be changing the clutch shoe springs or going to a Dr Pulley HiT clutch. Malossi has a kit of clutch springs which will allow the clutch to engage at a higher rpm.
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1Wingman1
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 14, 2021 10:12 am

Mr. Tim, once again your great wisdom and knowledge are quite impressive. My false assumption was that the variator sliders had begun to move at the lower RPMs.

By the way, I would like to redeem my points for some S&H Green Stamps. Smile
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 14, 2021 2:40 pm

Here you go 100 stamps Clutch engagement issue Sh10
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 14, 2021 2:52 pm

1Wingman1 wrote:
By the way, I would like to redeem my points for some S&H Green Stamps.  Smile

They're giving Green Stamps with Tequila. Wink
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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 14, 2021 6:31 pm

Yes, the SW in stock form with std. rollers, etc., the clutch engagement range aprox. 2,000-2,200, kIM that those are crankshaft rpm, not clutch rpm's ??, IME all other components being the same a "DRASTIC" change in the roller weights at or over 4gr either way, will make a "NOTICEABLE" difference in clutch engagement rpm's.  For example, some have gone to 32gr wt. it lowers the clutch in rpm's  and you can drive scooter easier at lower speeds.
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Dale N.
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 14, 2021 11:28 pm

MikeO wrote:
1Wingman1 wrote:
By the way, I would like to redeem my points for some S&H Green Stamps.  Smile

They're giving Green Stamps with Tequila. Wink

And now, the way my mind works, I'll have this song running through my head all night. Oh Well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajEkzwf7WNY
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1Wingman1
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 15, 2021 12:20 am

I sincerely appreciate the entertaining responses but even though I now have some Green Stamps I still can't buy anything. I should have redeemed for cash.
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 15, 2021 3:21 am

Dale N. wrote:


And now, the way my mind works, I'll have this song running through my head all night. Oh Well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajEkzwf7WNY

Glad it's not just me, Dale.

Glad, also, I waited until serious answers had been forthcoming; I've learnt a new thing, that regarding putting in heavier rollers. Smile
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mrseanharford1
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 13, 2022 7:05 pm

Evening all,
Sean here in south florida, I'm on a sw 600cc 2008 just passed the 42000 mile mark,
I've started to hear this squeaking noise by the rear wheel. The clutch pads were never
changed, could this be the solution? I only hear it slightly at 42 mph, once I accelerate it's gone.
Any info is appreciated,
mrseanharford1
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1Wingman1
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 13, 2022 9:48 pm

The Silver Wing is so noisy at 42 mph that it must be one horrible squeak. The only noise that i would classify as a squeak on a SW that I have ever heard is parking brake pads rubbing at low speed. Running on the center stand should help find it. If you can find any slack in the rear wheel you might have a bad bearing. Turn it by hand and try to push it side to side. See if the rear brake pads are running metal to metal. The only thing that I can think of that occurs around 42 mph range is the drive belt gets noticeably violent with its slapping against the case but that's no squeak.

Never rule out anything until you can positively rule it out.
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 14, 2022 12:46 pm

mrseanharford1 wrote:
Evening all,
Sean here in south florida, I'm on a sw 600cc 2008 just passed the 42000 mile mark,
I've started to hear this squeaking noise by the rear wheel.

That could be a glazed belt running on a step worn into the pulley sheaves at that speed. And like Wingman said that's also the approximate speed that the belt slaps the case. If the case is all polished up in there from the belt hitting it, and the belt has gotten so worn that's it's glazed where it hits the case, maybe that can cause a "squeak". If it's making noises, time to pop the covers off and see how much belt and clutch dust you got in there, and who's been rubbing on what.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 14, 2022 1:22 pm

Chris, when you say 'pulley sheaves' do you mean the slots in the pulley half as below;

Clutch engagement issue Pulley10

When I dismantled an old driven assembly which I have, I noticed what could be called a 'step' in the grooves (sheaves)?
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 14, 2022 1:50 pm

No, the sheaves would be the surface where the belt runs on. With age those get worn with steps in them instead of being a smooth ramp. I was thinking that could cause the belt to squeak when it rides over the steps worn in the sheaves. Then you speed up more and it changes ratio and gets past the steps worn in the sheaves so it quits squeaking. Both me and my wife's Silverwings had quite severe wear on the sheaves at 100,000 miles in the spot where the the belt ran at highway speed for countless hours. While I never heard it squeaking while changing ratios, it definitely affected how smooth it "shifted" with the extremely worn sheaves.
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 14, 2022 2:26 pm

I agree, this is a weird one. A 'step' in the pulley faces would account for the symptoms but I suspect it's the belt or the clutch assembly. I'm only speaking from experience with squealing noises but only during take off.
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 16, 2022 12:17 pm

The clutch assy had better not be squeaking, and be fully engaged, at that speed or it's got a serious problem.

It seems to me that Honda could've done a better job in the design of the CVT transmission on the Silverwing. Especially with the belt slap issue. Having a bunch of clattering coming out of the belt case on what is supposed to be a luxury touring scooter is unacceptable. I guess we always put up with it, and when it did it at particular speed ranges we learned to just hammer on the throttle to make it stop. But still......
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 16, 2022 3:58 pm

Perhaps Honda should have updated the transmission but it doesn't do too badly for a 20 year-old design. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 16, 2022 6:13 pm

Just trying to follow this thread, by clutch do you mean in the rear wheel hub? I guess you do but I have 40K miles on my SWing and have never touched that end of the scoot other then to check the oil level. A new belt was installed on mine about 14K ago and seems to be ok, prob about time I opened up the cover and took a peak at the possible wear as its part of the maint items now.

I guess belt wear is dependent on the types of driving you do and half of those miles are motorway cruising so guess  I may get afew more miles on the belt....
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 16, 2022 6:20 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cKbzUgFdS0
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 16, 2022 6:34 pm

Basically it's the same design as any other scooter, just bigger to handle 40hp. And with a parallel even-fire twin the harmonic vibrations in the crank cause severe belt slap. Harley-Davidson fixed this problem on their Big Twins back in 1948 with the primary compensator on the engine crank sprocket that prevents primary chain slap. Honda couldn't spend a few engineering dollars to come up with something similar on what was supposed to be their top-of-the-line scooter?
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 17, 2022 7:04 am

I had no idea that the SW was an even-fire engine!! It certainly explains a lot.
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 17, 2022 7:49 am

I can't see how the HD fix would make any difference to the SW, the HD has two fixed diameter cogs, on a CVT both ends are variable and controlled by weights and springs. Good old Victorian engineering 🙂
One solution for a super-smooth transmission is the automotive type CVT, but the only bikes I know of to use this are the Burgman and Aprilia Mana otherwise you're off down the DCT route used on current large Honda automatics.
The SW transmission seems pretty much bullet proof provided it is serviced as recommended which is neither complicated or expensive.
Mind you once we're all pushed to electrics anything mechanical will feel and sound like a bag of spanners falling down the stairs, then we will look back fondly on belt slap, vibration and noise.
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 17, 2022 8:45 am

steve_h80 wrote:
I can't see how the HD fix would make any difference to the SW, the HD has two fixed diameter cogs, on a CVT both ends are variable and controlled by weights and springs.

Of course it makes a difference, and whether the ratios are changed in an oil bath gearbox (H-D) or variable pulleys (SW) doesn't make any difference in torsional vibration dampers. Even your car engine has one. Without it the accessory drive belts on the front of the engine would vibrate and slap like a limp noodle and they would fail prematurely.

Honda left this important piece of engineering out of the Silverwing to cut costs, and instead service the belt all the time? If you take your Silverwing on a 8,000 mile round trip to Alaska like we did the primary thing that will leave you stranded alongside the road is that belt running at highway speed continuous for 14-16 hours a day. And Honda dealers here in North America don't stock 'em if you break one on the road.
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 17, 2022 12:19 pm

 " Honda left this important piece of engineering out of the Silverwing to cut costs, and instead service the belt all the time? If you take your Silverwing on a 8,000 mile round trip to Alaska like we did the primary thing that will leave you stranded alongside the road is that belt running at highway speed continuous for 14-16 hours a day. And Honda dealers here in North America don't stock 'em if you break one on the road. "

Thanks for that bit of info, as I plan on some long trips this summer, I'm taking some measures/precautions to enjoy my trips. Here's one that got mixed response  Surprised Shocked , but my life, my decisions  thumbs up

https://www.silverwing600.com/t12492-say-hello-to-my-little-friend-new-tool
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 17, 2022 8:11 pm

zrx212 wrote:
Thanks for that bit of info, as I plan on some long trips this summer, I'm taking some measures/precautions to enjoy my trips. Here's one that got mixed response  Surprised Shocked , but my life, my decisions

To change the belt you also need a spanner. You can get it apart with an impact wrench, but I'd recommend using a spanner to lock it and torque the 17mm bolt when you put it back together.

We always carried one spare belt between the two of us on road trips. The saving grace of the design is that the belt is easy to service. Try changing the final drive belt on a Harley alongside the road. No center stand and have to pull the swing arm out to replace it.
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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 17, 2022 9:04 pm

" To change the belt you also need a spanner. You can get it apart with an impact wrench, but I'd recommend using a spanner to lock it and torque the 17mm bolt when you put it back together. "


 Kinda getting of topic here, but for side of the road repair a "Sharpie" torque stripe on bolt would be sufficient, the trick is to make sharpie marks on both sheaves of front pulley and lineup when reinstalling, so bolt tightens correctly to stripe, when using impact. I'll retorque ASAP. 

 My wife rides a Burgman 400, will have to carry a belt and some different sockets. BTW the "Belt Slap" on my SW was virtually eliminated with the Malossi White Spring/AKA touring spring, only mod on my CVT, love it.
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1Wingman1
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 22, 2022 10:15 pm

zrx212: Is that Malossi white spring stronger or weaker than stock?
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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: Clutch engagement issue   Clutch engagement issue I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 23, 2022 11:24 am

1Wingman1 wrote:
zrx212:  Is that Malossi white spring stronger or weaker than stock?

It's aprox. 13% stronger than oem/stock, Malossi is kinda tight lipped about actual percentage, it's kind of unique per application, made to improve/replace OEM. I absolutely love how it works on my SW.
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