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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 26, 2020 7:49 am

Took my front wheel to my local tyre fitter this morning for new tyre which they supplied. Told to go back after a couple of hours to collect.

Arrived as told (just before closing) to collect my wheel only to be told they couldn't balance it because I hadn't supplied the axle spacers....WHAT?

Surely it's not too much to expect them to have called me so that I could go back earlier with the spacers and have my wheel back on the bike???

Who employs such F***wits? Now I have to go back on Monday with the spacers and get my wheel back.

I don't recall having to supply the spacers in the past but hey...I won't be using this tyre company again.  GGGGRRRRRRRR!

Rant over Mad
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Terry Smith
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 26, 2020 6:48 pm

Actually I don't think any of that is correct. The spacers normally rub against the oil seals on the bearing and cause drag which you don't want when balancing. Normal practice is to use cones on the balancer shaft which bear on the bearing inners only. The only reason I can think of to need the spacers is if the cones could not reach far enough into the brake side of the wheel. Doesn't seem likely (it's a dirty big hole in there) but who knows?

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Michel Vachon
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 26, 2020 9:57 pm

Loosemarbles,

Try dynabeads for balancing .. You will never need to balance again. I am selling that product for over 20 years and all my customers are more then happy... I don't know if it is available in England ... Here is the link : http://www.innovativebalancing.com/
When you will bring your wheel to have your tire change tell them to take good care of the little beads in your tire and transfert them into your new tire. (easy to do with a spray paint cap)

Michel
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 26, 2020 10:47 pm

What Terry said. Wheels on SW are a bit different than most motorcycles. Rear for sure.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 27, 2020 2:26 am

Michel Vachon wrote:
Loosemarbles, Try dynabeads for balancing .. You will never need to balance again.

Hmm.... if you had a choice between putting polystyrene balance beads or a puncture sealant in your tyres which the manufacturers also claim help to balance the wheels, which product would you choose? scratch

Myself, I'd choose puncture sealant.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 27, 2020 8:09 am

I use "Ride On" seems to balance well and may seals small holes in thread area. Not cheap, about $15 a wheel.
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Dale N.
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 27, 2020 12:03 pm

I also use Ride On in my tires. It seems to work good with no problems. Just follow the directions on the bottle.
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Michel Vachon
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 27, 2020 5:08 pm

Meldrew wrote:
Michel Vachon wrote:
Loosemarbles, Try dynabeads for balancing .. You will never need to balance again.

Hmm.... if you had a choice between putting polystyrene balance beads or a puncture sealant in your tyres which the manufacturers also claim help to balance the wheels, which product would you choose? scratch

Myself, I'd choose puncture sealant.

I never used puncture sealer so I can't say anything about it. (Dyna beads are ceramic...)

Michel
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 27, 2020 10:41 pm

Thanks everyone, I've never heard of these Dynabeads but Terry's comments may explain something: During the first MOT I had after buying my SW it failed on the brake-side bearing moving inside the hub. ( I had the same problem with my CX650 rear wheel some years ago). Could the spacers have damaged the bearing during previous balancing?....makes you think!

I bought a new wheel from the dealer who put on a new tyre and balanced it with weights. I've been riding it since then and now the tyre is worn out, hence the new one.

This tyre shop obviously doesn’t have the kit to do this job….using cones I mean…so I’m going to collect the wheel tomorrow and try out these Dynabeads. I never did like the look of those nasty weights.

Thanks again all, I’m glad I had my little rant now cat
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Terry Smith
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 27, 2020 10:50 pm

Loosemarbles wrote:
Could the spacers have damaged the bearing during previous balancing?....makes you think!

Wheel bearings just wear out with time, probably depends on the conditions that you ride and store the bike in as well. The bearing inner then gets loose and consequently your wheel gets a bit loose as well.

When a wheel is static balanced, there is very little force or movement involved, the only purpose of cones is to centre the bearing on the shaft so the wheel is concentric and perpendicular to it. The cones are just slid into place by hand and locked there against the shaft.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 28, 2020 1:05 am

When I say the bearing was moving inside the hub I mean that if you turned the wheel over the entire bearing simply dropped out. The bearing was fine, it was the hub which was wrecked!

I'll have a chat with the guy who did the Mot, he rides bikes and may have the cone device in his workshop but I still like the dynabeads option.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 28, 2020 6:52 am

Well, back from the tyre shop with my wheel. He wanted me to wait for an hour while they balanced it and I figured enough is enough, got a refund for the balancing (£10) and came home. The guy who was doing the job has an attitude problem and, I suspect, an inferiority complex.

I'd like to try to balance the wheel myself. Static balancing as per the video above seems reasonable so here goes...wish me luck! Shocked
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 28, 2020 8:43 am

Loosemarbles wrote:
When I say the bearing was moving inside the hub I mean that if you turned the wheel over the entire bearing simply dropped out. The bearing was fine, it was the hub which was wrecked! [snip]

My 2¢:
You know, you can quite probably take that wheel to a machinists to have that bearing pocket knurled so that the bearing will fit the wheel properly.

That’s gotta be less expensive than replacing the wheel.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 28, 2020 8:50 am

Thanks Tim but I replaced that wheel at the time and that's the one I have now, it's still as good as new.

I'm reading up on the Dyna beads option:

"They can remove imbalance as a tire travels forward and moves up and down. However, that strength illuminates Dyna Beads' weakness: they only work in the vertical. ... For large tires, or tires with a significant amount of radial run-out, the beads can lessen the amount of physical weights installed in the wheel".

These are the words from someone who tested them and now I'm confused. What if there is lateral imbalance?

Still thinking.....
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Michel Vachon
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 28, 2020 9:26 am

Loosemarbles wrote:


These are the words from someone who tested them and now I'm confused. What if there is lateral imbalance?

Still thinking.....

Ask that same person how they balance a lateral imbalance !!! Wost of the time weight are stick on the center of the rim or weight are install on the spoke for other wheels so...
I would say lateral imbalance on motorcycle wheel is close to nothing because our wheel are narrow.... but if you have a real wide wheel and tire ok... But you need the machine to do such a work...

If your wheel is bent from lateral or you have a bad wheel bearing I would say this is a problem to fix before trying to balancing the wheel/tire.

For my part, so far so good with Dyna beads and even on Harley wheels that I have put some.

Michel
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 28, 2020 1:25 pm

When I've had tyres replaced the mechanic did comment that he couldn't do a proper balance. His opinion was that these small wheels rarely give a balance issues but to come back if I had a problem.
Several tyres later I've had no wheel balance problems at all, having said that I've not had the bike much over 90mph so concur there may be issues at high speeds. Perhaps I've just been lucky with the tyres I've used.

On the other matter I have used puncture seal gloop before, and it does work, but some brands tend to strip coatings from cast wheels. I still use gloop in inner tubes, but the only tubed wheels I have these days are on my mtb.
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Terry Smith
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 28, 2020 4:04 pm

steve_h80 wrote:
When I've had tyres replaced the mechanic did comment that he couldn't do a proper balance. His opinion was that these small wheels rarely give a balance issues but to come back if I had a problem.
Several tyres later I've had no wheel balance problems at all, having said that I've not had the bike much over 90mph so concur there may be issues at high speeds. Perhaps I've just been lucky with the tyres I've used.
.

My Swing (or maybe its me) is definitely sensitive to front wheel balance; I can feel the shudder through the bars at around 100-120km/hr if the balance is off.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 29, 2020 1:56 am

Well, like most topics of any kind these days nothing has a yes or no answer. However, using my basic school physics education along with 40 plus years of life learning, I would say that any object which rotates about an axis needs to be balanced in both planes, more so at high speeds.

Discussion is good and it is why I love this forum. We can share knowledge, experience and advice but who is right and who is wrong?

Take a close look at a helicopter rotor assembly.... now there's a balancing act for you thumbs up
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Dave Weller
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 04, 2020 6:48 am

I use Watling Tyres in Gillingham Kent for my work, they have treated me very well and over the years every tyre change has been in balance, I always take out the spacers and put them back on the hub spindle so they don't get lost.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 04, 2020 7:20 am

Loosemarbles said :

I would say that any object which rotates about an axis needs to be balanced in both planes, more so at high speeds.

Discussion is good and it is why I love this forum. We can share knowledge, experience and advice but who is right and who is wrong?

Take a close look at a helicopter rotor assembly.... now there's a balancing act for you.

I said :

You have that right, now imagine something and it's big and fast where the weights are always shifting around and where a lot leave and never come back then a little does come back but not in the same place at the same weight, now that's a balancing act Smile

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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 04, 2020 5:21 pm

I called TPS Motor Cycles in Polegate that same day. He told me to take the wheel over straight away. He balanced it while I waited, 5 minutes. I'll be going there in future.
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Murf
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PostSubject: Re: Beware...spacers?   Beware...spacers? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 05, 2020 8:41 am

I went to a scooter mechanic shop to have my wheels balanced they had all the right tools. Yes my weights are on the outside of the rim.
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