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alpenpass
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Number of posts : 6
Location : Switzerland
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Registration date : 2020-09-14

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PostSubject: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 14, 2020 12:33 pm

Hello.

I have been reading some of the content of this forum during the past month. That is when I got the idea of buying a maxi scooter. I was initially looking for a 750-1200 cc naked bike or adventure bike, to do some sightseeing and occasional commuting.

I proceeded to buy a 2004 with about 30 000 km on the odometer. It came with a well documented history, and it was in a very good condition.

I have had mostly sportier touring capable bikes in the past, from Honda and Suzuki.

What turned me to scooters was the idea of not having the vehicle draw too much attention from the main activity. I tend to develop a serious relationship with vehicles, and spend too much time pampering them. I thought there is no way I can have such a problem with a scooter. After a few trips and about 2000 km (mostly 1 day trips, but there was one 3 day trip), I may have a thing going with the Silverwing. I am even considering washing it.

Luckily, there were other reasons for the scooter choice, which still hold. I love the practicality in the form of luggage space and ease of stop-and-go. I have the Honda original top box, but even without that, I would be able to fit enough gear for a multi-day trip. I have a 50 liter duffel bag which converts to a backpack. It fits perfectly under the seat. If I accumulate additional things to transport during my trip, I can use the bag as a backpack or tie it down on the rear seat.

With regards to the ease of stop-and-go, I love how easy it is to stop for some picture taking. Part of this is due to my choice of helmet, which opens up completely. I can wear the thing all day without discomfort, as long as I open up the lower half of it when driving in lower speeds or when stopping. The parking break is such a nice thing to have - more often than not I am in an uphill or downhill, when I want to stop to admire a view. Sometimes it is a bit tricky to release (?) when parked in a steep hill, but that may be an issue specific to my scooter. I need to ask about that. Also, I don't wear full motorcycling gear, which makes it much easier to handle the temperature changes between sunny valleys in sub 1000 m and roads up above 2000 m. I suppose one might argue that I need as much protection as I would with a different type of motorcycle, but I ride this thing differently than I did the other bikes I had. An accident is not always dependent on how you ride, though. From weather/wind protection, I am comfortable in just jeans and a jacket, which was not always the case with earlier bikes. I am thinking that may be because I usually don't drive faster than 100 km/h with the scooter, whereas that was the lower limit with my earlier rides. After sunset, I just add a mid layer, and keep going. It is still pretty warm in Europe, though. I doubt I will survive below +5 Celcius without proper ride gear.

My first worry was that the scooter would not have the power to get me up the Alpine roads, or the brakes to slow me down when decending. No worries there. Yesterday I drove up the 3rd highest paved road in Europe, Passo della Stelvio, and had zero issues in this regards. Sure, I did it faster with a >1000 cc manual gearbox machine, but I certainly did not feel I was blocking the road for anyone. Going down, the brakes were ok. No problems slowing down, although certainly not as effective as two disc multi-piston Brembos I had on my previous bikes. Breaking power matches the suspension and power, I would say. All in all, it is, I suppose, what you should expect from a 600 cc motor cycle which is not designed for racing.

The only problem I have with the scooter is the behavior at around 60 km/h. I will post a question about this, if I can't find an answer in earlier discussions. A small uphill makes it shudder and "sputter". It is almost like the fuel-to-air mixture goes bad or the engine drops a cylinder (but with just 2 of them, I am thinking the loss of power would be much more). A twist of the throttle will get rid of the issue, but that will also increase the speed, which is not always desired in a country of zero tolerance against speeding. The problem also occurs if I try to accelerate slowly, from 60 to 70, to keep up with traffic. At speeds above 80 km/h, or at RPMs higher than 3700 or so, I never have issues. It seems like the problem occurs more often with longer trips, so I am thinking I need cooler spark plugs. I also need to check the air filter, because if it's a mixture problem, my guess is it gets too little air. I read about having lighter rollers, to more quickly adjust to the riding situation (to allow the engine to always run at 4000 RPM or above). But is the torque really that bad below 3600-3700? The rollers were replaced 10,000 km ago by a Honda shop as part of the 24,000 km maintenance (which was done early), so I am guessing they aren't worn or dirty.

Okay, there is one other thing (I will probably post a question about this as well). There is a fairly loud wailing noise when cornering at speeds above 40-50 km/h, and when the turn is quite steep, ie. when the scooter is tilted substantially. It almost sounds like a wheel bearing is making a noise, but I am thinking the belt could also do that? I have never had a belt drive before, so I don't know if it is supposed to emit such a sound when driven in a tilted position. I don't feel any play in the wheels, though. I read that the front wheel bearing does not last very long, that is why I checked for play when buying it.

For fuel consumption, I am at about 4.8 litres per 100 km, over the +2000km I have been riding. All one-up, medium size guy (83 kg), with 10-30 kg of luggage most of the time. This includes some twisty roads up many Alpine passes, pretty hard on the throttle, but mainly country roads at around 80 km/h. I checked the odometer against Google maps, and it is accurate. Btw, also the speedometer is accurate, at least at 60-70 km/h. Based on other posts, I am guessing there is some "speedo healer" installed on mine.

I have the stock wind screen, and I am pretty happy with it. At first, I thought I would want something higher. I am about 183 cm, and the upper edge is below my mouth, if I sit upright, but I suppose I got used to it.
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sonuvabug
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 14, 2020 4:02 pm

Welcome aboard this board alpenpass. Second, make "search" your new site friend. If you can't find answers or insights after searching, then post your issues separately in the appropriate form and you'll be sure to attract members to comment. Be careful -- Stay Safe!
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HankMarlow
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 14, 2020 7:08 pm

For the most part,the commies on the east side of the pond measure fuel economy ass-backwards.  They use liters per 100 kilometers.  Real men (and women) use miles per gallon  (and that's American gallons, not limey gallons).  Anyhow, to translate liters/100KM into miles/gallon the magic number is 235.2 (or 282.5 for the wankers in the UK with their imperial gallons). So, our friend in Switzerland uses 4.8 liters per 100 km.  We divide 235.2
by 4.8 and get 49 miles per gallon (58.8 in the UK).


Last edited by HankMarlow on Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Michel Vachon
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 14, 2020 8:15 pm

HankMarlow wrote:
 Real men (and women) use miles per gallon  (and that's American gallons, not limey gallons).


You know Hank.

United State are alone to use miles and gallons !!!

My grandfather was using that also but not little gallon like you say . Canadian gallon are 4.54 litres and US gallon are 3.7854 litres .

Talking about real men and women Laughing Laughing Laughing

Michel thumbs up
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alpenpass
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 14, 2020 9:05 pm

Do you also use a real men's calculator to handle your magic numbers? My calculator is just a basic one. I believe I gave up the last piece of machoism when I purchased the Swing (no regrets either). Using this basic one, when I divide 282.5 by 4.8, I don't get 49. But I do agree, that 4.8 litres per 100 km equals 49 miles per US gallon. I think you just made a real man's typo, that's all. It is probably the smallest mistake in your message.

If everyone just used metric units, we would not need magic numbers or special calculators. We might still be able to have real men/women among us, but for different reasons, obviously.

Don't get me started on "commies". Switzerland was one of the few neutral countries during the wars. From what I hear, a large part of US citizens are being paid by the government to do nothing, and the Fed is buying up all the bonds of US companies. Sounds like communism to me.
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Mighty Mouse
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 3:04 am

Welcome alpenpass, to get back to the topic.
I would guess that the Swing is suffering belt slap at lower speeds. With 30 000kms on the clock, do you know if the belt has ever been replaced? Even if it has you get belt slap at certain speeds and revs.
Wailing noise when tilted I can only trace back to the tyres?
I am no fundi so wait for some of our curmudgeons to answer your question.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 4:44 am

HankMarlow wrote:
For the most part,the commies on the east side of the pond measure fuel economy ass-backwards.  They use liters per 100 kilometers.  Real men (and women) use miles per gallon  (and that's American gallons, not limey gallons).  Anyhow, to translate liters/100KM into miles/gallon the magic number is 235.2 (or 282.5 for the wankers in the UK with their imperial gallons). So, our friend in Switzerland uses 4.8 liters per 100 km.  We divide 282.5 by 4.8 and get 49 miles per gallon (58.8 in the UK).



Actually we wankers in the UK have being buying fuel in litres since the mid 80’s, because the rest of the EU was Metric and it was easier going Metric than replacing our outdated mechanical measure petrol/gas pumps.

We convert it back into proper Imperial gallons to get mpg simply because our road distances are measured in miles not kilometers like the rest of Europe

I kept meticulous fuel logs for years, probably because I having a mid life crisis, it could have been worse, growing a ponytail and buying a Harley.

My Forza has a Info Mode that I can scroll through to give an instant mpg readout on the move, existing tank range, and other features.

Very handy if I was remotely interested but I'm not. I get almost 200 miles range from a 11.5 litre/2.52 UK gall/3.03 US gallon tank and that's good enough for me.


Last edited by Meldrew on Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 5:39 am

HankMarlow wrote:
For the most part,the commies on the east side of the pond measure fuel economy ass-backwards.  They use liters per 100 kilometers.  Real men (and women) use miles per gallon  (and that's American gallons, not limey gallons).  Anyhow, to translate liters/100KM into miles/gallon the magic number is 235.2 (or 282.5 for the wankers in the UK with their imperial gallons). So, our friend in Switzerland uses 4.8 liters per 100 km.  We divide 282.5 by 4.8 and get 49 miles per gallon (58.8 in the UK).



Oh dear, you sad, sad person Sleep Sleep Sleep
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 6:02 am

The problem with Metric Measurement is that the units are the wrong size.
Litres are too small, as are centimetres and kilometres.
Meters and kilograms are too big.

One of the reasons given for moving from Imperial measurement to Metric was that it would be easier to manage, especially when it came to teaching children.
This was a load of nonsense - Base 10 was to be the cure for all ills. Yer, right!

I had just started my teaching career in Primary Education when the changes were happening.

The centimetre is too small for young children to measure whereas the inch was just right. The thickness of a pencil line is easily one millimetre wide; it makes a great difference when teaching measuring when using centimetres as opposed to inches.
The gap between centimetres and metres is far too great. There was a move to use decimetres but that came to naught.

In fact, as is always the case, the more able children would have learnt to measure and so on whatever the unit was whereas the less-able struggled however simple the system.


No doubt many older people here can still recite '12 inches, one foot - 3 feet, one yard - 22 yards, one chain' and so on. We learnt it, mostly without too much difficulty.
This, of course, involves the use of multiple Bases in arithmetic, in the same sums even, which we managed with little difficulty.

No sooner had all this been swept aside than teachers were require to teach Bases as a subject on its own; Colour Factor and Cuisenaire Rods became the order of the day, a complete waste of time and money for the able children and something for the rest to play with.

Of course, most importantly, one chain is the length of a cricket pitch and horse-racing courses are measured in furlongs, not forgetting that in 'The Tempest', Ariel tells Ferdinand, "Full fathom five thy father lies". Smile


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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 6:30 am

Ah, you forgot to do links to the chain Mike Wink

Why do we need two terms for a metric volume measurement that is exactly equal, 1cc is 1ml scratch
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 6:32 am

Quite so!

Which link? This one? Wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0h5ntOVg4
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alpenpass
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Number of posts : 6
Location : Switzerland
Points : 16
Registration date : 2020-09-14

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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 7:02 am

For an intro post, this is probably getting a bit long.

Sonuvabug and Mighty Mouse, thanks for the welcome and tips. The Bern, thanks for your input.

Meldrew, I am logging my refills for all my vehicles. Although I may currently be in the midst of a mid life crisis (the Swing is just one more sign of it, perhaps), this started when I thought I'd never get old. I also track all my bicycling and other sport activity, although that is less manual data entry. I believe I do get a return in my modest investment through some insight. It is not Big Data, but the idea is pretty much the same. Collect all data that is easily available, and see if you find anything interesting in it. I already found that a certain gas station seems to give me a smoother engine and better fuel mileage. And one which gives me opposite results. I have only 9 data points so far, so I should perhaps not apply statistical analysis yet, but surprisingly (or not?) there seems to be a strong correlation between price per liter and fuel mileage.

My average distance between refueling is currently at 238 km, with a range of [154 .. 328] km. On my max distance of 328 km, I was able to fit 15.31 litres in the tank, so I suppose I was getting pretty close to the max range, because the consumption on that specific distance was below average at 4.67 litres per 100 km. That equals 203 US miles.

Assuming the fuel capacity is 16 litres, my range capacity at my average consumption of 4.81 l/100km is approx 333 km, or 206.7 miles. Since my variance in consumption is [4.57 .. 5.17] l/100 km, my theoretical range capacity seems to be [310 .. 350] km (or [192.3 .. 217.5] US miles).

The last block on the fuel gauge starts blinking very early. It seems to start the blinking even earlier when I am climbing a mountain pass (probably due to location of sensor in the tank). With the data I have, I trust the odometer more than I trust the fuel gauge. As long as I find a gas station at around 300 km, I should be fine.

As an absolute measure of fuel economy or range capacity, when comparing to any modern small car with 4-5 times the weight, the Swing (or any motorcycle, really) comes out pretty bad. I don't know if I am more amazed by the great fuel economy and range capacity of modern cars or by the stagnant development in motorcycles. Anyway, for a two wheeler, I am pretty happy with both. I am very comfortable on the Swing, and could easily go double the distance without a break, but I accept the situation. With this thing, I will probably never have the need to travel hundreds of kilometers just to get to point B. For that, I take public transportation or car.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 7:38 am

HankMarlow wrote:
For the most part,the commies on the east side of the pond measure fuel economy ass-backwards.  They use liters per 100 kilometers... [Snip]


Moderator hat on:

Just a reminder, Don't go thereWe take a dim view (a very dim view and a quick hammer) toward political comments on this forum.


Last edited by Cosmic_Jumper on Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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alpenpass
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 7:48 am

Mighty Mouse wrote:

I would guess that the Swing is suffering belt slap at lower speeds. With 30 000kms on the clock, do you know if the belt has ever been replaced? Even if it has you get belt slap at certain speeds and revs.

Thank you for pointing me in this direction. Searching for "slap" led me to some posts which describe the issue quite accurately. Although I am a bit relieved to find that this is "normal", I am at the same time amazed that the issue is there, by design. The shudder is just so powerful when it starts, that it feels like the scooter can't take much of it before parts are starting to come off. I already notice that the plastics have started to resonate more than they did 2000 km ago. The handle bar end on the left side almost came off during my first few hundred kilometers. Luckily I noticed it just before it dropped, and twisted it back while driving. It has been tight since. Naturally my real worry is that more critical parts starts to rattle loose.

I will open the cover and see for wear marks to confirm belt hitting the housing. I will also clean the inside, and see if the filter needs cleaning/replacing. If it is, indeed, belt slap I am experiencing, then cooling of the belt might not be working properly, based on my observation that the issue is more frequent after driving some distance. Any hints on cleaning the filter?

The belt was changed just 5000 km ago, along with the rollers. The job was done by a Honda shop, but of course that does not guarantee a quality job. If that does not help, I will order the non-OEM sliders, and try with them. But all of this will have to wait for a couple of weeks, I want to take advantage of the nice weather while it lasts.

Mighty Mouse wrote:

Wailing noise when tilted I can only trace back to the tyres? question.
The tyres are not new, but they still have more than 50% on them. So, I doubt they are the source of the noise. But now that I think about it, I did have a set of tyres on a car long ago, which sounded a bit like what I am hearing now, it just did it all the time, on a straight or in a bend. But of course a motorcycle is different in that the part of the tyre touching the ground changes when going through a bend. Anyway, thanks for the input, I will take a closer look at the tyres.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 8:02 am

alpenpass, my apologies, I neglected to say hello & welcome bud thumbs up

MikeO wrote:
Quite so!

Which link? This one? Wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0h5ntOVg4

Laughing Yep that's the kiddie bud Cool


MikeO wrote:
most importantly, one chain is the length of a cricket pitch and horse-racing courses are measured in furlongs, one chain is the length of a cricket pitch and horse-racing courses are measured in furlongs

Indeed bud, also a chain was also known as an 'acres breadth', because a chain multiplied by a furlong equals an acre.
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The Bern
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The Bern

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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 8:14 am

alpenpass, watch this video from 12:03 you will see the belt slap bud ......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUcLb7nfJIs

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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 8:49 am

Bern, Alpenpass, mere belt slap isn’t going to cause such a shudder that tupperware is going vibrate so much so that things start falling off. Something more dramatic might be going on.

We should move this discussion to a new topic away from Introductions.
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 12:33 pm

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
Bern, Alpenpass, mere belt slap isn’t going to cause such a shudder that tupperware is going vibrate so much so that things start falling off. Something more dramatic might be going on.

We should move this discussion to a new topic away from Introductions.

I agree Tim, Alpenpass I think I'd start by replacing the front wheel bearing, they're quick & easy to do also very cheap if you go to a bearing supplier rather than Honda dealer, IIRC they're 6004rs (but do check before buying bud, me gery cells are getting a bit worn out Wink Laughing ) Also check the age of your tyres, old rubber can do strange things.
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sonuvabug
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 15, 2020 1:26 pm

HankMarlow wrote:
... snipped ... For the most part,the commies on the east side of the pond measure fuel economy ass-backwards.  They use liters per 100 kilometers.  Real men (and women) use miles per gallon  (and that's American gallons, not limey gallons).  

I find your comments ^^^ insulting on a personal level and totally inappropriate.  This tends to be a relatively civil website of SWing enthusiasts and there is no need to insult people, cultures or methods that differ from your own B.S. (belief systems).

For the record, the norm to measure fuel consumption metrics in Canada is now liters per 100 kilometers.  I grew up with mpg's ... and had to make the switch.  Anything can be learned ... it's all about what you are used to and whether you're open and quick minded enough to make the switch.  I feel I'm "measurement tri-lingual'.  Imperial/American/Metric        

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
Moderator hat on:

Just a reminder, Don't go thereWe take a dim view (a very dim view and a quick hammer) toward political comments on this forum.

100% Tim!  thumbs up
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 16, 2020 3:38 am

HankMarlow wrote:
For the most part,the commies on the east side of the pond measure fuel economy ass-backwards.  They use liters per 100 kilometers.  Real men (and women) use miles per gallon  (and that's American gallons, not limey gallons).  Anyhow, to translate liters/100KM into miles/gallon the magic number is 235.2 (or 282.5 for the wankers in the UK with their imperial gallons). So, our friend in Switzerland uses 4.8 liters per 100 km.  We divide 235.2
by 4.8 and get 49 miles per gallon (58.8 in the UK).

Skimming through this topic again, it occurred to me that that to convert (not translate) litres into US or Limey gallons, it's probably only the boy Hank chewing the end off his pencil doing his 235.2 magic number routine.

The more enlightened amongst us do the conversion instantly through the installed App on our phones and iPads etc. Even back in the Eighties long before cell/mobile phones, I was using a cheap solar powered Metric Conversion pocket calculator to do the same job and to convert prices in German DM to British £ Pounds.
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alpenpass
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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 16, 2020 6:19 am

Meldrew, I actually use my browser for most common conversions, and I am still using the keyboard as an input device. I bet others are doing the same with voice recognition. Try typing "49 l/100km to" in the search bar of a fairly up-to-date browser (I prefer Chrome), and it will already guess what you are trying to achieve. Same for currencies and other units of measure.

Keeping with the Internet age tips (sharing is caring, and it's not like this has been a very strictly focused discussion anyway), The Bern, you can actually link directly to a time point in a video, for example: youtu-dot-be-slash-WUcLb7nfJIs?t=723 (replace -dot- with an actual dot and -slash- with an actual slash, the forum does not allow me posting URL links as a new member). You get the link by right-clicking the video in Youtube, and then selecting "Copy video URL with current time", or equivalent. If you want to do it manually, you may want to use minutes and seconds, like so: "t=12m03s". In the HTTP protocol, the question mark (?) starts the list of parameter, and an ampersand (&) is used to separate multiple parameters. For example, the link to the same video can be expressed as so "www-dot-youtube-dot-com-slash-watch?v=WUcLb7nfJIs" (the ID of the video as a parameter, instead of a section of the URL path). To add a timestamp to this video, you must start with an ampersand, like so: "www-dot-youtube-dot-com-slash-watch?v=WUcLb7nfJIs&t=12m03s".

Coming back to the actual topic of belt slap, what I see on the video is pretty mild. The belt would never slap the inside of the cover, if it was there. For my issue to be caused by belt slap, it would have to be much more severe. As Cosmic Jumper (Tim?) and The Bern said, the issue is probably not (only) belt slap. And sorry for continuing this topic in an Introduction post. I may create a summary of my findings once I am there.

Yesterday went though all the visible screws for the tupperware and found that many of them could be tightened half a turn or even more (without using too much force to cause damage). For example, one of the screws under the rubber floor mat was almost completely out on both sides, pushing the rubber mat upwards. I made a short trip, just to test the effect. The scooter may be a bit quieter in sharp bumps, but now I realize that I also did not have anything to roll around in the luggage areas. Anyway, the main issue is still there, of course.

The shudder/vibration is most felt in the seat. Just a slight increase/decrease in the throttle removes it. I did not have time to open the cover and see how the belt behaves when running. That would be interesting. I should probably have my video camera ready when I do that.

Going through the parts I noticed that both the front and rear brake calipers are wiggling a bit. The two mounting bolts for the bracket holding the calipers are tight on them both, but there is some play between caliper itself and the structure that attaches the caliper to the frame of the scooter. That might explain the noise when cornering, and it should be easy to test by applying the brake when cornering. But I am guessing the wiggling is there by design, the calipers being the "floating" type. Apart from the parking brake refusing to release half of the time when stopped in a steep hill, the brakes are working just fine. No noises.

My short test ride yesterday did not include tight bends at higher speeds. Possibly some of the tightening of the plastics may have helped there, so hopefully I have time today to make a proper test ride. It does not take a huge amount of mass to vibrate to create quite a powerful sound. Just think of the main tool in the toolbox of a football refugee.

I also was not able to test the front wheel bearing, since I was alone. When I bought it, I had the seller put weight on the rear to get the front wheel off the ground. Besides using a jack under the engine or putting a moderate amount of weight in the top box, is there an easy trick for getting the front wheel off the ground? Sitting at the very rear of the seat, I can barely get the front to lift. The top box is further back (more leverage), but I think I would still need at least 40kg to press the rear wheel to the ground. Parking in an uphill would help, but pushing the bike off the center stand would probably require someone to assist in pushing.

I called a few shops. They all seem very busy, so I will not get immediate help from them. Perhaps if I just showed up with a front wheel, they might squeeze in a bearing replacement. I currently don't have access to my garage where I could work on the scooter, so only very small DYI jobs are possible at the moment. Out of the two issues, the shuddering is the more annoying one, but it can be avoided by keeping the speeds above 70 km/h. The wailing noise might be an indication of something more critical, but with no other symptoms, I will keep riding for now.
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Terry Smith
Maxi-Scooter Rider
Maxi-Scooter Rider
Terry Smith

Number of posts : 189
Age : 55
Location : Auckland, New Zealand
Points : 408
Registration date : 2020-03-11

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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 16, 2020 7:36 pm

The shuddering that you describe might be due to clutch engagement. The centrifugal clutch shoes are thrown out into firm engagement with the clutch bell as the rotating speed increases (this is engine speed not wheel speed). You stated that above 3700rpm and at higher speeds, the issue goes away. It could be that the clutch shoes are glazed and not making good contact below that speed, causing a shudder. One "fix" you can try is to hold the brakes hard on and give the engine some revs for a few seconds. That will cause the clutch to engage and you can "burn" some of the glaze off. You'll know it when you smell it!

I doubt that belt slap would be audible unless the belt was really worn; the belt does fluctuate between the drive and driven plates but I doubt it could hit the case. A new belt is fairly easy to install if you have a variator holder tool (or make one).

With the belt out, one more nut removes the clutch assembly if you wanted to inspect that for clutch shoe material and free movement. You can deglaze the shoes with sandpaper at that point.

Getting the front wheel airborne is easy with a jack, I use a parallelogram screw jack from a car, and lift on the small frame cross member at the back of the plastic underguard.

Some front tyres can emit tread noise when leaned into corners. The belt drive certainly won't do anything different in a corner.

Caliper movement is absolutely normal, there are rubber boots between the sliding pins and the fixed parts, and these have to have some freedom to move. Honda recommends using silicone grease here to ensure free movement, without which your brake efficiency is poor and pad wear will be uneven.

Your fuel consumption sounds the same as mine; 220km and 11 litres is a pretty normal refill point for me.
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alpenpass
Scooter Rider
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Number of posts : 6
Location : Switzerland
Points : 16
Registration date : 2020-09-14

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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2020 5:16 am

Thanks for your input, Terry.

I am aware of the fact that working on the drive train on a Swing is quite simple. That was actually the main reason for choosing Swing over the Suzuki equivalent. However, at the moment, I have very limited resources (tools, garage) to fulfill even the very few prerequisites.

If I am cruising at 60 km/h, the centrifugal clutch should be fully engaged (assuming all individual springs of all the pads of the clutch are ok), no? The clutch should not start slipping when I enter a slight uphill in this situation? Anyway, I did the "burn-off deglazing" once, and it did help with the squeal I sometimes heard during takeoffs.

I saw pictures of a belt cover with wear marks from the belt. Not the kind you would expect to see after a belt snapped, but indications of touching of the belt over an extended time. So, when extreme, my guess is that the belt may actually hit the cover. And even if it did not, the belt slap itself may not be the source of the noise. If the belt does not actually hit the cover, it would be the vibrations caused by the belt slap which makes the phenomenon audible. And actually, noise is not my grievance with this thing (my other issue was about noise). It is the vibrations themselves.

About the other issue, I have positive development to report.

Yesterday I drove about 150 km. There was enough twisting roads for me to verify that the wailing noise when leaning is gone. All gone! I am happy, but surprised. My only explanation is that some of the plastics were lose enough to vibrate, and for some reason this vibration only triggered when leaning. I did not expect such a dramatic change. I would almost like to loosen the two Allen key bolts on the front fender half a turn to see if the noise returns. If tightening of the screws all around the chassis really did it, a loose fender would be my prime suspect for the source of the noise I heard. Of course, I may not have solved the root cause. I may still have bad wheel bearings, but now I just don't hear it any more, because I have secured any vibrating plastics. This would more easily explain why the noise would appear only when leaning.

Other, quite dramatic improvements were introduced by seat and suspension adjustments. I did not mention those adjustments earlier, since I did not see any connection to the two issues I had. But after the ride yesterday, I must comment on the effect of these.

While I was tightening the screws around the chassis, I removed the back rest and put it back. I wanted to see how it looked without it, but I was not happy with the result. I have been just slightly crammed on the scooter, and I thought I had the back/butt rest in the extreme position. But when I put it back, I realized that was not the case. From the dust mark on the seat, I am guessing I was able to push it back about 10-15 mm. And what a difference that made. I can now sit normally and have my arms fully extended, without leaning back at all. And I have much more room for my legs/knees. I now finally "get it", how the upper position for the feet are supposed to give support for the driver. All in all, the riding experience changed quite dramatically because of this small adjustment. I was ok with the comfort before, it still beat all my previous experiences with motorcycles, but now I am in heaven. Truely.

The other very positive change was to increase the preload on the rear springs, also something that I did not mention, since I thought (I still do) it is not relevant to the two issues I had.

Someone described the Swing as an American sedan from the 60s-80s compared to more modern maxi scooters which are like Corvettes. By the way, I had a Corvette when I was younger, and it certainly is not the high mark for good handling. Anyway, with just one step increase from number 2 to number 3 on the preload, I feel I gained at least half of the difference between a 80s Chevy Caprice (I had one of those as well) and a Corvette. This is like a totally new ride now, combined with the seat adjustment I now have the comfort of a scooter and the handling of a fairly capable motorcycle. I will of course experiment with position 4, but for now I am very, very happy with the 3rd position. Combined with the reduced rattling of some of the loose plastics, the scooter feels much more solid on bumpy roads. I still make an effort to go around inconsistencies on the road, but that is not always possible. For example, when crossing a railroad. For that, the experience was smooth as butter yesterday, compared to earlier.

I am probably imagining it, but the thing feels more responsive in every other way as well. It's like I gained 20% more power. I can't explain it.

If I could get rid of the remaining issue (vibration at low speeds/revs), I would be extremely happy with my Swing.
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Terry Smith
Maxi-Scooter Rider
Maxi-Scooter Rider
Terry Smith

Number of posts : 189
Age : 55
Location : Auckland, New Zealand
Points : 408
Registration date : 2020-03-11

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PostSubject: Re: Hello from central Europe   Hello from central Europe I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 17, 2020 4:52 pm

My Swing does vibrate more accelerating from a standstill, then once rolling it is very smooth. I have replaced variator weights, fitted a new belt and checked the clutch internally, and that is all fine so I am assuming it is probably due to engine vibration within the rubber mount system.

I made a small video when I first got my bike showing the action of the CVT; I can see that the belt might slap when coming on/off the throttle but when running steadily it should not be possible. This was with my old belt which was somewhat worn.

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