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 2002 wing cranking but won't start

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Cosmic_Jumper
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goyal99
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 25, 2018 9:11 pm

Hello everyone
I have checked the obvious things on the 2002 scooter to get it to start but it's a no go at the moment.  I have not used it at all this year because the battery went bad, so I got a brand new battery 120cc for it. It has gas and the headlight comes on when I switch on the ignition key. Power appears to be fine and it is cranking strong but fails to start. I've checked all the fuses and they look fine. The tip over sensor is correctly placed and I'm depressing the left brake handle all the way. The kick stand is up and correctly wired. I'm not sure what else to check at this point.  

I've read some of the comments and suggestions others had in similar no-start situation and I believe I've checked everything.  Is there something else I'm missing??

Thanks for your time
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Easyrider
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 25, 2018 9:25 pm

You are missing a proper introduction to this forum.

That said, try playing with the starter switch. Spray some WD40 while working the switch. If that does not work, try spraying WD40 on the side stand switch while working it.

The engine kill switch is off, right?


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goyal99
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 25, 2018 9:50 pm

Kill switch?

You mean the red on/off switch on the right handle? That is set to "on"....would the motor be cranking otherwise?

I will try your suggestion although I'm not sure how the WD40 would help the starter switch....I'm thinking maybe the plugs could be fouled. I need to check those...
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The Bern
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26, 2018 4:24 am

Can you hear the fuel pump running when you turn the ignition on ?

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Siataukreg
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26, 2018 8:39 am

Squirt some easy start into the air filter that will tell you if its got a spark if it runs for a few seconds and cuts out  then its got to be a fuel problem if you get nothing then go for the spark
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Thebreen
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26, 2018 9:33 am

does the fuel pump run (briefly) when you turn the key on? if not check the fuses

is the run/stop switch in "Run" (even if it is since you havent been riding i would recommend switching it between Run and Stop several times then trying again).

you say it cranks well and lights are on (my recollection is if the side stand is factory wired still the engine wont crank at all - but if the run/stop is in "stop" it cranks but there is no spark).


engines need fuel, air, spark and timing

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goyal99
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26, 2018 9:57 am

thank you for your suggestion guys...

I will check all those points of action and report back on any progress.

Regards
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26, 2018 2:13 pm

You got a new battery: was it allowed to charge to full capacity before you hooked it up? Brand new batteries need to be hooked up for 24 or more hours to fully charge . If not they run down quickly and may give you the false impression that all's good. I would double check that battery if everything else checks out. Take it to a proper battery place with technicians not just sales clerks.

Jay.
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The Bern
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26, 2018 3:52 pm

Thinking on, if this has not been used fror a considerable time it could well be that the fuel has absorbed moisture that has subsiquently seperated out & has passed through the system & wetted the spark plugs
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26, 2018 4:14 pm

Assuming that the scoot was running when it was last used you can rule out ignition problems. However I would still pull the plugs, reattach them to the spark plug leads and check that there is spark at the plugs.

As The Bern says, you've probably got bad fuel and/or a contaminated fuel pump. Remove the seat under cover to expose the fuel injectors, fuel pump, fuel rail and fuel return line (fuel pressure regulator to fuel pump). Disconnect the return line at the fuel pump and place it in a container. Turn the ignition ON for 10 seconds. Then turn OFF. Measure the fuel in the container. There should be a minimum of 2 oz. If you've got 2 oz then you be reasonably assured that the pump is working. If less or no fuel than either the pump itself is not working or that the fuel filter is clogged with contaminated fuel.

Let us know what you find.
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goyal99
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26, 2018 7:59 pm

I did not get to perform all your suggestions but I did the basic testing for fuel and spark.

When I turn the ignition switch ON and before the starter switch is engaged, I can hear the whining sound of the fuel pump for a few seconds. So the fuel pump seems to be doing something and I know there's about a quarter tank of gas in the tank. However, like some of you mentioned, the scooter has been sitting idle since last Nov so it's possible the fuel has gone bad....It was working fine before the battery went bad and it was parked.

I did not have time to pull the plugs to check their condition yet, but I did spray some started fluid down the air intake (after removing the air filter) and the scooter started and run for a few seconds. So it's either not getting fuel or the fuel is getting is contaminated. It's strange that I can hear the fuel pump energizing but maybe not working properly. I will get some time to pull the plugs this weekend to check them. And may also do a fuel pressure test before pulling the fuel pump.

I've charged the newly purchased battery fully before installing it in the scooter. Like I mentioned before, the wing cranks strong and I will recharge the battery tonight. Thank you all for your suggestions.


VK
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Cosmic_Jumper
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 26, 2018 11:37 pm

So the whirring sound is the pump working. Don't worry that it shuts off after a few moments, that's normal...it's working. It appears as if you've got a blocked fuel filter. But...

Do that pump volume test. If you get 2 oz then you know the pump is putting out adequate volume. So the next step will be to siphon all the old fuel from the tank. Then add a full bottle of Chevron Techron additive along with fresh fuel. Allow it to sit overnight then try starting.

Techron will clean the fuel system once it's running and hopefully neutralize the crud left over from the old fuel.

Inadequate volume? Then you've got to drop the tank, remove the pump assembly and replace the filter. Unfortunately that job is a real PITA. The Silverwing part # for that filter is: 16900-MCH-003.
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goyal99
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 28, 2018 8:03 pm

Ok folks, I'm back with some findings.  The fuel pump test was successful. Plenty of fuel came out when the ignition key is on the ON position. The spark is good. Then I decided to drop the gas tank and change out the filter and dispose of the old gas.  See photos
below of the tank and fuel pump assembly.
It took me a while to drop the tank and it needs to be sprayed on the outside with some rustoleum because it's starting to get rusty. There is also some rusty spots on the inside of the tank as well.  

2002 wing cranking but won't start Dscn8711


2002 wing cranking but won't start Dscn8710
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goyal99
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 04, 2018 8:38 am



Success!

I finally was able to get the Swing started and it's running great.

I changed the fuel filter and flashed the fuel tank and that seemed to take care of the starting issue. Of course prior to doing all that, I had replaced the battery with a brand new one. And also replaced the plugs with new NGK plugs. I took the bike for a long ride and I enjoyed every minute of it on a gorgeous fall afternoon on the outskirts of Philly.

Thanks to all of you for your timely suggestions in resolving the starting issues.

Happy riding to all.

Vasilis
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 04, 2018 9:57 am

Good job, Vasilis ! Perseverance paid off. Sometimes the problems lie with the simplest part of the technology like fuel filters, and such , specially on older bikes.

Jay.
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 04, 2018 11:54 am

Congratulations.

So were you able to locate an aftermarket or cheaper alternative to the Honda OEM filter?

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goyal99
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 04, 2018 9:03 pm

Hey Tim

I was going to purchase a Honda OEM fuel filter but the local dealer near me at Willow Grove had no motorcycle parts.  Then I stopped by a different Auto Zone and I was lucky enough to spot a very similar looking fuel filter on the self.  Auto Zone and Advance Auto do not carry anything for the 600 - they don't even have a listing for the scooter.  I just happened to spot a similar looking fuel filter and although it is slightly longer than the OEM filter, I was able to shorten the two ends and it worked fine for my purpose. The cost of the filter was $9 as compared to $50 for the OEM.  I wasn't sure it was going to work correctly after I installed it but the bike is running fine and makes plenty of power. I'm not suggesting not to buy the OEM fuel filter but I'm willing to give this one a try for now.  

I don't remember the part number of the filter but I will look for it the next time I'm at Auto Zone and post it here.  Again is not a direct replacement for the OEM filter (some modification is needed because it's a little longer) but it works well and doesn't appear to have any flow restrictions.

Best regards  

Vasilis
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Cosmic_Jumper
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 04, 2018 11:26 pm

goyal99 wrote:
Hey Tim

I was going to purchase a Honda OEM fuel filter but the local dealer near me at Willow Grove had no motorcycle parts.  Then I stopped by a different Auto Zone and I was lucky enough to spot a very similar looking fuel filter on the self.  Auto Zone and Advance Auto do not carry anything for the 600 - they don't even have a listing for the scooter.  I just happened to spot a similar looking fuel filter and although it is slightly longer than the OEM filter, I was able to shorten the two ends and it worked fine for my purpose. The cost of the filter was $9 as compared to $50 for the OEM.  I wasn't sure it was going to work correctly after I installed it but the bike is running fine and makes plenty of power. I'm not suggesting not to buy the OEM fuel filter but I'm willing to give this one a try for now.  

I don't remember the part number of the filter but I will look for it the next time I'm at Auto Zone and post it here.  Again is not a direct replacement for the OEM filter (some modification is needed because it's a little longer) but it works well and doesn't appear to have any flow restrictions.

Yes please. The part # would be a great help for anyone else needing a filter change.

I assume that the aftermarket filter is also a metal-body unit too.

[Edit] If you could also post the measurements of the OEM filter. That would be nelpful too. Body diameter, body length, inlet and outlet tube diameter and length, etc.

Tim


Last edited by Cosmic_Jumper on Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mike from NS
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 05, 2018 9:04 am

Glad you have it sorted out Vasilis and at a good saving.

In a slightly similar way ... my annual oil change includes an "other than dealer" filter which is much cheaper too. I use a FRAM PH6607 from Walmart which runs in the $6.00 range. It is the same filter used on Honda Civics .... so I'm keeping it Honda acceptable. I'm afraid John may not agree with my stepping away from the dealer on this but money is money; when you feel overcharged.

Mike
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 05, 2018 2:28 pm

I got this from a FRAM technician. "XG6607 that fits the silver wing and has the same relief valve pressure. It is 99% efficient and has capacity for over 10k miles. It costs 8$, still less than the OE filter. This XG6607 has steel end caps, a stainless steel pleated screen and two layers of full synthetic filter media. Our standard PH6017A is 95% efficiency and has capacity for 4k oil changes". You can search this site for "XG6607".

Just an FYI.
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Mike from NS
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 05, 2018 4:39 pm

Easyrider wrote:
I got this from a FRAM technician. "XG6607 that fits the silver wing and has the same relief valve pressure. It is 99% efficient and has capacity for over 10k miles. It costs 8$, still less than the OE filter. This XG6607 has steel end caps, a stainless steel pleated screen and two layers of full synthetic filter media. Our standard PH6017A is 95% efficiency and has capacity for 4k oil changes". You can search this site for "XG6607".

Just an FYI.

Mahalo, Easyrider !! Can never have too much info. I've been trying to remember where I discovered that the PH6607 was a fit and can only think it must have been from someone on this site. I'll take note and search for the
XG6607.

Mike
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 05, 2018 8:43 pm

goyal99 wrote:
Hey Tim

I was going to purchase a Honda OEM fuel filter but the local dealer near me at Willow Grove had no motorcycle parts.  Then I stopped by a different Auto Zone and I was lucky enough to spot a very similar looking fuel filter on the self.  Auto Zone and Advance Auto do not carry anything for the 600 - they don't even have a listing for the scooter.  I just happened to spot a similar looking fuel filter and although it is slightly longer than the OEM filter, I was able to shorten the two ends and it worked fine for my purpose. The cost of the filter was $9 as compared to $50 for the OEM.  I wasn't sure it was going to work correctly after I installed it but the bike is running fine and makes plenty of power. I'm not suggesting not to buy the OEM fuel filter but I'm willing to give this one a try for now.  

I don't remember the part number of the filter but I will look for it the next time I'm at Auto Zone and post it here.  Again is not a direct replacement for the OEM filter (some modification is needed because it's a little longer) but it works well and doesn't appear to have any flow restrictions.

Best regards  

Vasilis

I hope that filter is designed for fuel injection. Just because its metal doesn't mean it can handle the pressure.
I've been searching around and most of cheaper type filters are for carburetor rated pressures 7-14 psi not 45-50.
Many say not for fuel injection. I'd check into that for sure it could split and leak.

Happy its running.
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 08, 2020 10:23 am

For clarification, as of this date, FRAM offers 2 FRAM branded oil filters for our SWings ... regardless of year or model designation i.e. ABS or not.

The black PH6017A is their standard oil filter.  

The gold XG6607 is their premium oil filter.

There is no product description under the standard black PH6017A filter.  

The product description under the gold XG6607 filter refers to it as being a "premium" filter that is recommended for use with synthetic oil.  

Both are listed on their website as a fit to the SWing's 582cc engines.
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 08, 2020 12:11 pm

I use Partzilla and never had a problem getting OEM parts. So happy you got the SW going.
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 08, 2020 2:45 pm

sonuvabug wrote:
For clarification, as of this date, FRAM offers 2 FRAM branded oil filters for our SWings ... regardless of year or model designation i.e. ABS or not.

The black PH6017A is their standard oil filter.  

The gold XG6607 is their premium oil filter.

There is no product description under the standard black PH6017A filter.  

The product description under the gold XG6607 filter refers to it as being a "premium" filter that is recommended for use with synthetic oil.  

Both are listed on their website as a fit to the SWing's 582cc engines.

I believe that the poster is referring to a fuel filter and not an oil filter. I didn't think that the fuel filter is replaceable as a unit.

That being said, I always use the XG6607. It does not use the cardboard internally. Instead it uses stainless steel. The PH... filters use cardboard internally.
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2002 wing cranking but won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: 2002 wing cranking but won't start   2002 wing cranking but won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 08, 2020 4:59 pm

Easyrider wrote:
I believe that the poster is referring to a fuel filter and not an oil filter. I didn't think that the fuel filter is replaceable as a unit.

That being said, I always use the XG6607. It does not use the cardboard internally. Instead it uses stainless steel. The PH... filters use cardboard internally.

You're right ... up until when Mike from NS pivoted the thread and talked about oil filters. Even though it is an older thread, I thought I'd confirm the PN's for the two Fram oil filters for future "searchers".  

Good to know the cardboard vs. stainless steel difference between the two.
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