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 Hard acceleration stuttering :-(

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Coops666
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


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Location: Devon, UK
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Registration date: 2011-03-24

PostSubject: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Wed May 18, 2011 12:54 pm

Hi all, a couple of days ago I noticed something is not too well with my machine. It starts fine, runs up to 40 fine, and if I gently accelerate all is fine. But if I try to accelerate quickly (twist the throttle like I mean it!), especially if I'm going over 50mph, the engine will sputter. If I back off and accelerate gently all is fine and I can build up speed to 80+. It was fine with this until a couple of days ago.

I gave the bike a major service about 1,000 miles ago - oil+filter, air filter, plugs, final drive oil etc - and it was running sweet as a nut. Now this happens. I have good technical knowledge (and a workshop manual!) but before I lose another weekend in the garage dismantling anything & everything is there something obvious? If not, what order of attack would the wise ones here suggest?
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alejom
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Wed May 18, 2011 12:59 pm

It may sound too obvious, but what if you got a tankful of dirty gasoline? that and the quality of the fuel seem to impact my machine a lot.
I had to stop filling up a a couple local stations because their fuel made my engine knock a lot.

Does anyone know how to check the fuel filter?
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Wed May 18, 2011 1:32 pm

I would suggest a fuel additive to clean the fuel injectors and engine.

_________________
Bill - Georgetown TX 07 Silver Wing ABS

Clearview w/vent, Givi E96/TB19/E52 with Admore Lighting, Alaskan Leather, Wrist Rests, 3M Solas tape, K&N air, Hyperpro spring, Grip Puppies, Airhawk, Utopia backrest, Stebel, Apexcone HIDs, StingerZ LEDs (w/Backoff WigWag), Knight Rider Sequential LED, NGK Iridium, Power Commander III, Manic Salamander, Saeng mirrors, Garmin Zumo 660, Dark-Side Sumitomo Tire

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exavid
Silver Wing Rider
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Wed May 18, 2011 3:50 pm

Two things I'd try first would be a Sea Foam treatment and sparkplugs. Bad plugs often tend to cause problems with rapid throttle operation. Sea Foam fuel system cleaner is one miracle in a can I've had good luck with. I use it as a preventive once or twice a year in my car, truck, Goldwing and Silverwing.
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bigbird
Silver Wing Guru
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Registration date: 2010-05-02

PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Wed May 18, 2011 3:54 pm

I suggest you look at the basics to start. Since this came on suddenly after running fine for 1k miles after your tuneup, keep it simple. I've had a spark plug crack months after installing it. Check both spark plugs first. Since they're easy to remove, pull them both and have a look at their tips for colour and their insulators for cracking. Report back.
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redeye
Maxi-Scooter Rider
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Age: 51
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Registration date: 2010-10-13

PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Wed May 18, 2011 4:04 pm

In addition to something like a defective plug, check the plug wire connection. On my Yamaha, I had a similar problem to the one you have described. The wire was in contact with the spark plug but not securely in place for a good connection. The scoot would run fine under light acceleration, but would sputter and stall under hard acceleration or with a pillion. After firmly connecting the wire to the plug, the engine ran fine in all conditions and has done so ever since.
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GaryL
Super Scooter Rider
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Wed May 18, 2011 4:23 pm

I would also check the TYPE of spark plug. If they were some other 'compatible' brand selected off a conversion chart, this could happen after 1000 miles, especially under hard acceleration. I know... I did this many moons ago and have used factory plugs ever since.
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JeffR
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Wed May 18, 2011 9:39 pm

I agree with checking the plugs and the connections too. Also, maybe a fuel or fuel system problem..i.e. fuel filter, bad gas etc. It seems that is the general comments here. I'm sure it is something very simple though.

_________________
Ride safe,

JeffR

2007 Silver Wing (30,000 miles)
2005 Majesty 400 (sold 12,500 miles)
2004 Reflex (sold 3,500 miles)

Givi Windshield, top case, vista cruise, power commander, dr pulley sliders, air hawk seat pad, (J. Costa not installed now), kevlar belt

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Coops666
Scooter Rider
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Number of posts: 13
Location: Devon, UK
Points: 445
Registration date: 2011-03-24

PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Thu May 19, 2011 12:21 pm

I've checked the plugs (NGK CR8EHIX-9) and both have a dusting of soot, so I would guess the plugs haven't been firing properly. I could troubleshoot this on a carburetted system but FI is trickier. There are no errors showing up from the FI system when I turn the ignition on.

I've tried fuel from different petrol stations bit that made no difference so I don't think it is bad fuel.

I'm changing the plugs (they are gapped correctly), and checking that I've got the leads fully home on the plugs and see what happens. Feel free to add some more suggestions since I don't have much faith that this is going away with new plugs (I'm a glass half empty kind of guy!)
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lesley & John
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Thu May 19, 2011 12:29 pm

whats the milage of your bike
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GaryL
Super Scooter Rider
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Location: Casa Grande, Arizona
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Thu May 19, 2011 1:09 pm


My book calls for plug number CR8EH-9. Are UK plugs different, or are these platinum plugs or something?
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bigbird
Silver Wing Guru
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Thu May 19, 2011 4:05 pm

I believe he's running the Iridium plugs.
If both plugs are the same colour then I would move on from plugs being an issue. Next I would have a look at both the ground connections and the spark plug leads at the coil pack.
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Coops666
Scooter Rider
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Registration date: 2011-03-24

PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Fri May 20, 2011 8:48 am

bigbird wrote:
I believe he's running the Iridium plugs.

Yes they are.

Today with new plugs, no stuttering at all. I will check the coils & leads over the weekend, and I'll see if the problem creeps back (and check the plugs every couple of days to see how they are doing - maybe the carbon build up is a gradual thing)
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GaryL
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Fri May 20, 2011 3:34 pm

Is anyone else running Iridium plugs, and if so, are you experiencing any problems like Coops666 is having?
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Fri May 20, 2011 10:07 pm

GaryL wrote:
Is anyone else running Iridium plugs, and if so, are you experiencing any problems like Coops666 is having?


I have been running the same Iridium plugs for ~42,000 miles with no problems.

_________________
Bill - Georgetown TX 07 Silver Wing ABS

Clearview w/vent, Givi E96/TB19/E52 with Admore Lighting, Alaskan Leather, Wrist Rests, 3M Solas tape, K&N air, Hyperpro spring, Grip Puppies, Airhawk, Utopia backrest, Stebel, Apexcone HIDs, StingerZ LEDs (w/Backoff WigWag), Knight Rider Sequential LED, NGK Iridium, Power Commander III, Manic Salamander, Saeng mirrors, Garmin Zumo 660, Dark-Side Sumitomo Tire

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bigbird
Silver Wing Guru
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Sun May 22, 2011 8:44 am

bigbird wrote:
Next I would have a look at both the ground connections and the spark plug leads at the coil pack.


As an aside, the Swing engine uses just 1 coil to fire both spark plugs simultaneously. When one cylinder is firing its spark plug at the top of its compression stroke, the other cylinder wastes its spark simultaneously on the top of its exhaust stroke. This is referred to as a 360 degree crankshaft. Both pistons rise and fall together, but are phased 360 degrees apart in terms of their firing order.
The reasoning for this is economy; only 1 coil and 1 inductive timing pickup is needed. This saves money and space. Almost all multi-cylinder engines use this technology including car engines. One coil serves 2 cylinders.
Irrelevant, but I hope interesting.
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derek
Scooter Rider
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Sun May 22, 2011 8:53 am

The spark is actually not wasted, it fires on the exhaust stroke for improved emissions.
When both spark plugs appear to be covered in a black "soot" this indicates 2 possible problems. The first being spark plugs that are eithe faulty or the wrong heat range for the engine. Or secondly the the fuel or supply is the problem. Could be bad fuel or the injector is sticking open slightly. As Big Bird said you should always start with the basics first.


Last edited by derek on Sun May 22, 2011 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Sun May 22, 2011 9:03 am

derek wrote:
The spark is actually not wasted, it fires on the exhaust stroke for improved emissions.


I believe it's the introduction of excess air into the exhaust port area (P.A.I.R. valve) that reduces emissions rather than the wasted spark.
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derek
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Sun May 22, 2011 9:15 am

There is always unburned fuel on the exhaust stroke. The air introduced to the cylinder on the exhaust stroke is to cool the cylinder down to reduce emissions.There fore the spark on the exhaust stroke, helps burn excess fuel.
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bigbird
Silver Wing Guru
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Sun May 22, 2011 9:31 am

derek wrote:
There is always unburned fuel on the exhaust stroke. The air introduced to the cylinder on the exhaust stroke is to cool the cylinder down to reduce emissions.There fore the spark on the exhaust stroke, helps burn excess fuel.


I think you should read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection

Air injection is not for cooling down the combustion gases, it's there for introducing extra O2 to complete the combustion process.

Honda was one of the pioneers of wasted spark ignition when they introduced a dual set of ignition points on their 4 cylinder CB 750. Emissions control was the furthest thing on the minds of the engineers back in the 60's for motorcycles. Their logic was reduced complexity and costs, just as it is today.

http://www.gill.co.uk/products/digital_ignition/introduction/8_wast_spark.asp
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wingmann
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PostSubject: Hard acceleration stuttering   Sun May 22, 2011 9:33 am

Could the soot on the spark plugs be from a bad fuel presser regulator or a vacuum leak
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Sun May 22, 2011 9:45 am

wingmann wrote:
Could the soot on the spark plugs be from a bad fuel presser regulator or a vacuum leak


Incomplete combustion leads to carbon (soot) deposits. Incomplete combustion can be caused by too much fuel (rich A/F mixture), not enough air (rich A/F mixture), or an inadequate spark (incorrect timing, too short a spark duration, coil undervoltage, spark plug failure, etc).

A bad fuel pressure regulator can definitely lead to a rich mixture.

A vacuum leak introduces extra air into the combustion process, resulting in a leaner A/F mixture, more complete combustion but at the expense of much higher combustion temps, and an abnormally high idle speed. I doubt a vacuum leak is causing his problems.

But again, I'm not a factory trained Honda technician, just an old but experienced DIY'er. lol!
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Sun May 22, 2011 9:47 am

Wingmann,

Your right. The fuel pressure regulator could be the problem. The diaphragm inside the housing, will from time to time, develop a small hole and gas will get sucked in to the vacuum lines causing the mixture to be to rich with fuel. I have seen/heard of this happening on other Silverwing scooters.
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derek
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PostSubject: Re: Hard acceleration stuttering :-(   Sun May 22, 2011 10:27 am

Big bird, I am not going to argue with you, 31 years as a Master Automotive Technician, I know what the purpose of a spark on the exhaust stoke is. Maybe a motorcycle engine has a different method of handling emissions, but in a Modern internal combustion automotive engine that is basic theory!
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