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 Oil Checking Dilemma

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exavid
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"Hi Yo"
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Tom G
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PostSubject: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 27, 2015 11:21 am

The SWing manual says to run the engine 3 to 5 minutes, then turn it of. It then says to wait a similar amount of time, then check the oil by wiping the dip stick clean and inserting in fill hole, but not screwing it in.

I understand that, but why go through the process of running the engine, then waiting for the oil to settle? I prefer checking oil when the engine is cold to get a more accurate reading.

However, when I check it cold, and then check it as instructed by the manual I get two different readings. The cold reading shows the oil sump to be fuller than the hot reading.

I have been checking oil in one internal combustion machine or another since 1952. I have always checked the oil when the engine is Cold whenever possible.

Why is it different for the Silver Wing??

Thoughts and explanations, Please
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hotwings
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 27, 2015 11:49 am

Imho when the engine is allowed to run for a while the oil is pumped to every crook and cranny, crack and crevice. Even with the motor sitting for a few minutes the oil is still covering all those areas. After a long period of time the oil slowly returns to the sump. If there's oil on the stick- ride it. No rocket science required.
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Tom G
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 27, 2015 4:04 pm

I should have been more explicit about asking for an explanation, but I figured it was obvious.

Your very mundane description about oil and the engine was generally correct, but it did not explain why the owner's manual gave such gratuitous & time wasting instructions.

As I have done in the past, I will continue to check the oil when the engine is cold, and will ride only when there is Adequate oil on the stick.



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"Hi Yo"
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 27, 2015 9:23 pm

Tom G wrote:
 

Your very mundane description about oil and the engine was generally correct, but it did not explain why the owner's manual gave such gratuitous & time wasting instructions.








Because the legal department has become the most important part of any company!!! Mad Mad
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Tom G
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 28, 2015 6:55 am

Your explanation makes about as much sense as the the instruction manual Mad Mad Mad
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barnstormer37
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 28, 2015 7:48 am

I am also 78 years old (in my case young) and when I ask for someone else's opinion/comments, I do so with the mindset of accepting all comments/suggestions with an open mind. It would not occur to me to insult a responder because I feel I probably have a higher intellect on the subject matter that I've asked for help on.

I would suggest that the owner's manual describes the way to check the oil level because that is the way the Honda engineers felt was proper, and would result in the correct amount of oil in the crankcase. If you feel you have a method that better suits you, then by all means use that method. It was said before, it's not rocket science (it's a dipstick!).
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JeffR
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 28, 2015 1:11 pm

Tom,

Check your oil anyway you want. I'm sure that the Honda Engineers have a reason as to why they gave the instructions in the manual. I have always did this with all cars and motorcycles I have had. As 'barnstormer37 said...there is no reason to berate someone when they respond to your post. If you don't want a response unless it agrees with you then maybe don't ask anymore questions.
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Tom G
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 28, 2015 1:53 pm

JeffR wrote:
Tom,

Check your oil anyway you want.  I'm sure that the Honda Engineers have a reason as to why they gave the instructions in the manual.  I have always did this with all cars and motorcycles I have had.  As 'barnstormer37 said...there is no reason to berate someone when they respond to your post.  If you don't want a response unless it agrees with you then maybe don't ask anymore questions.

As I commented earlier, I did not phrase the question properly. Apparently, not everyone understood what I was looking for.

My question should have been:

Can anyone explain why the Silver Wing Owner's Manual instructs the oil to be checked after running the engine? It seems to me that that method would be less accurate than if the oil were checked when the engine is cold.

And, Mr. JeffR, I am sure that who ever wrote the manual had a reason. But, I would like to know what the reasoning is. I usually do not accept things just because they are in print, especially which is contrary to everything I've learned.

I thought perhaps someone in the forum might know the reason, a reason, perhaps, that I was not aware of.

But, no, the 1st responder replied in a cavalier fashion as though I should not be concerned about the matter and just "ride it if there was oil on the Dip Stick". Stating that it is not "Rocket Science". A rather belittling remark if I may say so.

The 2nd responder replied with a non-sequitur, attributing the cause to Honda's legal department. I understand that he was implying that Honda was using a "Cover Your Backside" phrase in writing the section. However, I doubt this seriously, and indeed said so in my reply to him. Further, the 2nd respondent signed off with 2 cutesy Emoticons showing Anger. What was that all about???

Both you, Mr. JeffR, and Mr. Barnstormer must not have read the replies in the same vein as I did. My question was serious, and I did not expect sarky and trivializing answers.

My intention was not to "Berate", rather to Defend myself.

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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 28, 2015 3:00 pm

You have to be prepared for anything on here.

I don't like your tone very much, Tom G, and am inclined to think that your remarks are as sarcastic as you seem to think others are.

I venture to suggest that something as important as how oil levels should be checked, if the handbook is unclear, should be addressed to Honda, either directly or through a Honda Agent.

Take this as a mild rebuke from a Moderator hell-bent on keeping discussion civilized.
Don't do it again.

Friendly tip: publically criticising the owner of the site is never a very sensible thing to do, whether he's in the right or not. Wink
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JeffR
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 28, 2015 3:10 pm

MikeO,

Very well said. Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 28, 2015 6:54 pm

Tom G wrote:
The SWing manual says to run the engine 3 to 5 minutes, then turn it of.  It then says to wait a similar amount of time, then check the oil by wiping the dip stick clean and inserting in fill hole, but not screwing it in.

I understand that, but why go through the process of running the engine, then waiting for the oil to settle?  I prefer checking oil when the engine is cold to get a more accurate reading.  

However, when I check it cold, and then check it as instructed by the manual I get two different readings.  The cold reading shows the oil sump to be fuller than the hot reading.

I have been checking oil in one internal combustion machine or another since 1952.  I have always checked the oil when the engine is Cold whenever possible.

Why is it different for the Silver Wing??

Thoughts and explanations, Please

It always saddens me when a person who thinks they are cleverer than everybody else asks a question that they believe everybody else will answer whilst trying to be helpful and then tries to shoot them all down in flames with the answer that he thinks is correct.

I see this behavior constantly with young children who have yet to learn any social graces. fortunately most learn quite quickly from their peers that its not the thing to do, some end up being lonely old people and a few of those then move on to start being very brave at the other end of computer.

So for "Tom G" I will whilst trying my very best to remain as polite as I am able try to explain what I believe to be the reasoning behind the instructions given by those very clever gentlemen at HONDA. I do not claim to be right or to have superior mental capabilities to anyone else on here. I have just used my understanding of how an engine works and spent a few mins thinking.

When an engine is run all the tiny nooks and crannies in it are filled with oil. The gentlemen at Honda decided on a point on the dipstick that they thought left a large enough safety margin to safeguard the engine. When an engine has done a lot of miles all of those nooks and crannies get bigger through wear. The amount of oil needed to fill the engine will therefore be slightly more. The sump will take the same as it did before but all the oil ways and bearings etcetera will have changed. I don't believe it will be much but by filling every bit of the working area of the engine and then setting the level in the sump the engine will still have oil in it to the level that the Honda technicians think is safe.

So Tom G I hope this might have given you an answer. Please don't bother to reply because anything else you have to say is of no interest to me at all and I wont read it. I find you the most unpleasant person I have met on this site and I think you need to improve your social skills.
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"Hi Yo"
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 28, 2015 7:31 pm

Tom G,

     I ,for one, am not offended by your comments. If my answer ( showing my anger with companies faced by frivolous lawsuits) offended you, I apologize. I feel answers given by others are correct. Short of contacting Honda , and getting an official statement, I don't know what else could be done.

     I think that owners manuals are written for those with less experience than you. If your methods have worked for you since 1952, then I don't think anything will change your procedures.


     
     
    sunny     sunny     More cutesy emoticons to brighten your day!    sunny     sunny
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Tom G
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 28, 2015 8:54 pm

Hi Yo wrote:
Tom G,

     I ,for one, am not offended by your comments. If my answer ( showing my anger with companies faced by frivolous lawsuits) offended you, I apologize. I feel answers given by others are correct. Short of contacting Honda , and getting an official statement, I don't know what else could be done.

     I think that owners manuals are written for those with less experience than you. If your methods have worked for you since 1952, then I don't think anything will change your procedures.



Dear "Hi Yo",

I thank you very much for your very kind reply and no apology is necessary. It is most difficult to communicate with the written word without misunderstandings to occur. And, I think you are correct about Owner's Manuals.

Because of you, I look forward to other dialogues on this site.

Thank you again.

Smile

Tom
     
     
    sunny     sunny     More cutesy emoticons to brighten your day!    sunny     sunny
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 28, 2015 11:41 pm

Here's a hint fellows: The Silverwing has a dry sump lubrication system. The dipstick is marked so as to read correctly when there's a fair amount of oil still in the engine's galleries. Running it which fills all the oil channels and then shutting it off for several minutes will give the correct dipstick level. They could have marked the dipstick for both conditions, when oil was in the oil galleries and when the engine had been sitting for some time and all the oil drained into the sump. That could have caused more confusion so they marked as they did so that you could measure the oil without waiting for the engine oil to settle which would mean a longer stop en route on a ride.
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oldgwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 29, 2015 8:43 am

They could have marked the dipstick for both conditions, Smile Smile   I have such an engine, just not in a S'wing it's marked so you can check the oil with the engine running, in fact the dipstick is marked thus so there is no confusing which is which. BTW is 30+ year old.
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 29, 2015 8:53 am

Staying on topic, I agree with Paul above. The procedures are there for a reason. Years ago I used to check my oil "cold". But for the last 20 years or so the procedures are changed to "warm" as listed in the Honda manual. Check your car-truck manual, mine say to check when engine is "warm", not sure why but that is what I go with... I have checked them both ways to see and always get different levels so to avoid over-filling (not a good thing) I use the new method.

"Do what you want to do, baby!" Laughing
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oldgwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 29, 2015 1:14 pm

Warm, a rather generic term, wouldn't it be more accurate to be more specific? But whatever being aware it should be checked and try to follow OEM recommendations still remains beyond a great many drivers of anything.
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hotwings
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 29, 2015 2:18 pm

The most accurate way of checking the oil, and i follow this religiously as i've been riding motorcycles since the beginning of time, is :
1) start the engine and let it warm to 83.7° centigrade.
2) shut off the engine
3) remove the oil plug and allow the oil to drain through the finest of imported chinese silk into a stainless steel receptical
4) remove the oil filter and allow oil to drain through the silk into the ss container
5) keep the oil containing device under the bike until all oil is drained, usually takes around a week to a week and a half.
6) with the oil now all collected use a government approved measuring device to precisely measure the oil volume. Correct to the proper amount using only oil hand delivered directly from the middle east and approved by the honda engineering department in Japan.
7) return the oil into the bike by pouring through a new piece of the imported chinese silk.  
8 ) return the filter onto the engine
9) start the bike and drive like hell knowing the oil level is precisely where it should be.




Yep thats a parody! Laughing
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Dale N.
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 29, 2015 5:02 pm

Good One hotwings! Good One! It works too.
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hotwings
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 29, 2015 5:07 pm

Dale N. wrote:
Good One hotwings! Good One! It works too.

Trying not to be so "mundane"  Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Question
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 29, 2015 8:09 pm

hotwings wrote:
The most accurate way of checking the oil, and i follow this religiously as i've been riding motorcycles since the beginning of time, is :
1) start the engine and let it warm to 83.7° centigrade.
2) shut off the engine
3) remove the oil plug and allow the oil to drain through the finest of imported chinese silk into a stainless steel receptical
4) remove the oil filter and allow oil to drain through the silk into the ss container
5) keep the oil containing device under the bike until all oil is drained, usually takes around a week to a week and a half.
6) with the oil now all collected use a government approved measuring device to precisely measure the oil volume. Correct to the proper amount using only oil hand delivered directly from the middle east and approved by the honda engineering department in Japan.
7) return the oil into the bike by pouring through a new piece of the imported chinese silk.  
8 ) return the filter onto the engine
9) start the bike and drive like hell knowing the oil level is precisely where it should be.

I hate to be the one to fault your instructions but you forgot to account for the oil on the top (inside end) of the oil plug. These often have a coating of oil on them which would be missed by your instructions. Then there's the matter of dismantling and removing all traces of oil in the filter both it's solid parts such as the metal canister, threads, all impervious surfaces inside the filter including the media and inspecting with a microscope to insure all oil is accounted for. All of this oil must be collected along with that drained from the engine and allowed its temperature to equalize with the oil already in the oil drain pan. It's also very important that the oil temperature, ambient air temperature and barometric pressure are as called out in the appropriate U.S Government Petroleum Handling manual(s) as well as the vehicle manufacturers English translation of their appropriate owner's manual(s).
Be sure to handle the oil per OSHA regulations as well as notifying the Department of Energy of the surplus oil you now have on hand. It will also be necessary to report the acquisition of the used oil to the Department of Environmental Protection.







Yep thats a parody! Laughing
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hotwings
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 29, 2015 9:17 pm

Yes sorry i forgot about that. Now that i think about it, the flux capacitor could also retain some oil altering the volume indicated on the manufacturers measuring and oil indicating rod.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 30, 2015 1:44 am

You're right of course. I also forgot that things are different depending on the latitude at which the oil is measured due to the affects of the Coriolis effect, just getting old and forgetful.
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 30, 2015 10:30 am

going back to a more serious note.
I have always been  a stickler for regular oil changes. And have tried both methods "Hot and Cold".
After reading this thread I thought I would try to see how much differance "Hot or Cold" oil level checks really are.
Just carried out an oil change (80,925miles) I warmed the engine up for about 4-5 minutes. then drained her and changed the filter. When refilling she took 2litrs to middle of level started bike up for a couple of minutes to fill the oil filter, and then checked oil level.
It took a further 340ml to bring the level back to the top mark of the level.
Left the her over night and then checked the oil level in the morning according to the level she was overfilled by about 5mm on the dip stick. Using a syringe I removed 110 ml to bring back to top level mark.
Started her up and ran for a couple of minutes, checked oil and level was down below the top mark by about the same amount as I had removed with the syringe.
Carried out a simliar exersize on my son's Swing and found similar results.
Conclusion 110ml of oil must be the amount of oil left hanging in the galleries, cam shaft  and rocker head whilst the engine is running.
According to my measuring cup it takes 420ml of oil to go from bottom level mark to top level mark. and so as long as you run your oil level about the middle of the level stick it will not matter whether you check it Hot or Cold if the correct amount of oil is in there, you will be in between the high and low level marks.
Sorry I'm bored!! both Swings are running great. Gardens done, wifes happy, I need a holiday and a drink Sleep
Denzil
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: Oil Checking Dilemma    Oil Checking Dilemma  I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 01, 2015 7:32 am

It seems to me that definitive answers have been given.

Therefore, I shall lock the thread, at least for the time-being.
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