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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeWed May 20, 2015 3:27 pm

Hey guys and gals, I just noticed that my 2005 with 18000km is behaving oddly. It started and idled at ~400 rpm. I pushed off and it ran fine. I stopped for a few minutes, maybe 20 minutes into the ride. I started it up again, same thing: idle ~400. I gave it some throttle, got the rpm's up and it stayed steady at ~1200. Worked just fine on the ride home. I did about 100 km or so, no issues with running, 80 km -120 km/h mixed highway and back roads. I filled up and started again, same issue .
I replaced the plugs a few days ago ( Honda, as per owners' manual) and this is the first ride ( of any length) that I have had on it. That's the only work on it since oil and filter change before winter storage. Air filter was new last year.
One question I have from the search I did: Since this is a fuel-injected machine, why does it need carburetor balancing? I am not saying it doesn't, but the ? is obvious, no carbs, why balance?
I appreciate your help. I am a total green horn in things mechanical.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeWed May 20, 2015 3:39 pm

old gas sat in tank all winter?
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeWed May 20, 2015 3:53 pm

In this instance "carburetor" is used a a generic term to apply to an air/fuel induction system.

More specific to your condition, you'll need to balance the vacuum in the Throttle Body by adjusting the Air Adjustment screws with the use of some type of manometer device.

But first I'd run a small bottle of fuel injector cleaner or Techron to that thankful of gas to insure that the system is clean. HTH

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeWed May 20, 2015 4:44 pm

Hi "cotetoi",
If I'm not badly mistaken, the SWing fuel system is what is known as "Throttle Body" Fuel Injection. I'm assuming once the fuel passes through the throttle body (metering device?) it is then split to the cylinders based on a properly balanced vacuum setup; hence the need for a manometer as cited by "Cosmic_Jumper". So... no carbs, just a throttle body. Others please correct this as necessary.
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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeWed May 20, 2015 8:37 pm

Thank you, guys. I used Stabil in the tank over the long winter. At the start of this season, I used Seafoam in the first couple of rides. I got a lot of whitish smoky exhaust, which is normal for Seafoam. I am going to run the Techron in the current tankful.
Thanks also for clearing up the throttle body "carbs" for me. It all makes sense. I will do a search here and on Youtube for balancing the vacuum.
Jay.
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model28a
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeWed May 20, 2015 9:10 pm

Here is pictorial by JeffR that Jeff did for us.
And Here's a link to a post from BlackFly. The first post has a link to a pictorial that BlackFly did for us.
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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeWed May 20, 2015 9:36 pm

Thanks, Roger. I could not see the Blackfly presentation at first, then realised that I was not signed in. It is very clear and doable.
Jay.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeWed May 20, 2015 11:19 pm

Check out exavid's DIY "two bottle" manometer post on May 15, 2015 it's pretty simple and effective.

Tim

Edit:Here's the YouTube link for that DIY Manometer: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MbiI5CbKoWo
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Mike from NS
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 8:40 pm

I am in almost the exact situation as cotetoi (aka: Jay)

Mine is also a 2005 S'Wing and I have about 16400 kms on it. Also used Stabil for the winter gas tank. Like Jay, mine suddenly has started to start but without throttle it may stall. I added some STP injector cleaner but the problem seems a bit worse, - certainly no better. It stalled twice today , which had never happened before. After it warms up it idles at about 1200 and the world is a happy place again. Most times starting has been just fine. This is a sporadic development and most of the times this slow idle happens is just after a fill up. So I was thinking water in the fuel was the problem. My next step was to be some Seafoam. I'm a bit timid to mess with adjustment screws since it has been running perfectly until now. I haven't changed the plugs yet, so that's also on the list. I also read here that the diaphragm in the fuel pressure control (?) may be a source of the problem.

I'll be watching this thread closely ... good luck Jay !!

Mike
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 12:23 am

Throttle bodies have a throttle valve just about the same as a carburetor. It's important at lower throttle settings to have the throttle plates allowing the same amount of air into the engine to keep both cylinders developing the same amount of power to keep vibration down. Once the throttles are open about 25% or better balance becomes less important but at low throttle slight differences on plate angle make a larger difference between cylinders. At larger openings a slight difference has less effect on the airflow velocity. It follows a trig function.
Clean injectors, proper fuel pressure, good iginition and balanced throttle bodies are the important areas for good starting and idling.
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PostSubject: Low idle speed   Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 1:11 am

It seams that most idle concerns are from older Silverwings that do not have 02 sensor.This is what is known as a open system.In a closed system the O2 sensor gives a input (voltage) to the ECM and
the ECM will maintain a pre-set RPM.On a closed system you could remove a vacuum line and not effect the idle.The Throttle body on the Silverwing is basically regulating the amount of air and the injectors are regulating the amount of fuel depending on the throttle
position(TPS) switch. All except the latest Silverwing have dual a throttle body and if not synchronized will cause a rough or low idle
condition. I would have to believe that if you have not had a idle concern and all of a sudden you have one it is not a synchronization problem. You either have some bad fuel or the injectors have been effected by too much additive. I would lean to the fuel.Drain the tank and use the highest octane fuel (no ethanol) you can find. And put some miles on the S/W.  Howard
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 2:26 am

I agree, out of sync situations don't usually show up suddenly, it's usually a slow deterioration.
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Mike from NS
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 7:22 am

Thanks for your explanations and suggestions Paul & Howard. These are really helpful. Yes, I feel it must be as bad gas problem. It is always best to start with the least invasive treatment so I'll go with the draining the gas and having some high octane ready to replace to old gas. Any additive I've used has been as per instructions on the labels. "More is not necessarily better."

When it stalled out yesterday, there was the smell of gas first. This makes me think one of the plugs wasn't firing. However after about 10 minutes it was idling perfectly at about 1200rpm.

A check of the plugs is in order too.

Thanks for your input.

What do you think Jay? Do we have the same problem?

Mike
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 8:29 am


SilverWing does have idle adjustment screw.







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Mike from NS
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 9:05 am

Hi John,

My concern is that all was working well and my slow to stall idle is just now and then ... but becoming more frequent now. And when it warms up the idle is back around 1200. If I changed the idle screw setting wouldn't this just mask another problem? It sure would likely fix the too slow an idle but maybe it might be curing the symptom without curing the source of the problem. What might change the idle setting, from the factory setting, enough to require some adjustment?

Thanks,

Mike
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NWSSC
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PostSubject: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 9:35 am

Yes the S/W does have a idle adjustment screw. If it were a closed system it would not have one. The only way to change the idle on a closed system is to change the prom or re-calibrate it electronically.
Howard
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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 10:23 am

Sorry to hear about the idle problem, Mike. We have similar SW's with almost identical mileage and age. Funny that both would develop similar problems at about the same time. Like yours, mine has the problem predictably right after fill-up. Occasionally after a rest period. Problem goes away, mostly, until the next fill-up.
Not being the mechanically savvy type, I hesitate to do any open surgery. I have been dealing with it by holding the rear brake tight and giving it throttle to get revs up. It generally settles down after that and goes like a SW without hiccups. Till next fill-up. It has not left me stranded anywhere.
I have no idea if I am aggravating the problem in the long term. I have reviewed the videos for balancing the throttle bodies, and it is something I could attempt. For now, I will do what has worked thus far. I installed new plugs at the start of the season. Fuel consumption is the same, so I don't think the plugs are faulty.
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PostSubject: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 11:35 am

An area to check out would be the EVAP system. All of the S/W have the same fuel evaporation system and might be a area to check out. The fuel cap is not vented but the tank has a vent hose that goes to the EVAP canister that is filled with charcoal.
Any fumes leaving the tank are stored here and removed periodically
To many fuel vapors (a rich mixture ) could cause a idle problem. It might run a little rough but if it were a closed loop system the ECM would raise the idle until the vapors are burned off and then the ECM
would return back to a normal idle. Howard
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 12:09 pm

when my swing idled slow, I adjusted the throttle stop screw to the recomended 1300 rpm idle screw 1200 rpm is slow for my swing .You don't have the milage on your swing to have major problem .You may have to much injector cleaner in the tank . cold start bring my idling to 1500 rpm before dropping to 1300 rpm when warmed up.Try raising the rpm to see if the problem goes away.
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Mike from NS
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 12:55 pm

Jay,
We do seem to have the same problem .... the first sign of any idle problem was at a fill up maybe a month or more ago. I put it down to moisture in the gas. And with each successive fill and for a few days of use afterwards there seems to be this idle problem -- but not always. I filled it Friday and it needed more throttle to keep it running leaving the gas station for a short 3 km ride home. Once home it was idling as it should. Didn't use it Saturday (remember the rain ??!!!) but Sunday it needed more throttle to keep it running at first and actually recall it surging a bit going down my street. Rode around local streets for close to 50kms and back home. It ran perfectly after the first 5 minutes or so. Later in the day I rode it to a show by the Atlantic Vintage Motorcycle Society ... about a 5km ride. It started and idled as it should. But after about 45 minutes when leaving for home it idled so slowly that it stalled out. Never had that happen. But restarted and kept it running with more throttle. Had to leave for another errand and again the idle problem. I generally made sure it was well warmed up before heading out but more recently I just started and headed out in a minute or so. As the tank empties, this idle problem seems to go away too. Maybe all our wet weather has something to do with the problem? It just doesn't miss or sputter as I would expect water in the gas would cause. Lots of power still present as well.

I haven't used Seafoam just yet but that was my next move before I found this thread and the words of wisdom expressed here. Some STP injector cleaner in the gas Friday has had little effect so far - but it's too little use to be fair on that. I go with the simplest solutions first and trying to think what has changed that may cause the problem. I am overdue for a spark plug change, so I should do that anyway. My gas mileage on the last tank was 55 mpg (imperial) with a lot of running around town. The prior tank gave me 64 mpg but that was a Sunday ride of almost 248kms from Bedford to Peggy's Cove and Queensland Beach. One other aspect ... this all began when I let the tank get down to fumes early in the season.

Howard;
Are you suggesting we should check the operation of the EVAP purge control solenoid? (pg 5-118, in my manual). If that is sticking could we have a build up in the canister to the point of causing the problem? What else would we check or should find as problematic?
Thanks,

Mike
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Mike from NS
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 1:05 pm

Thanks "tinman".

I put 25ml of the injector cleaner in the tank and added 11.1liters of gas to bring it to full.   That is a little less than the bottle suggested.  The third bar of the gas gauge had gone out (leaving the bottom two ) shortly before this top-up.

I'll try bringing up the idle with the screw as you suggest ... if our rain ever stops !

Thanks

Mike


Last edited by Mike from NS on Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mike from NS
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 7:37 pm

My latest ... to add a bit more info. Just made a run to the grocery store ... maybe 3 kms (taking the long way of course). I pushed it out of the shed where it had spent the past 28 hrs. on the ctr stand. It started just fine and idled at 1800 slowing to about 1300 in a couple of minutes. After the store visit it stalled out as soon as I pushed the start button. No smell of raw gas as the last stall out yesterday. Kept the throttle held to keep the revs up and proceeded home. No further problem with too slow an idle at stop lights or sharp corners. Strange and inconsistent behavior. After 65kms the fuel gage still indicates full with all bars lighted.

Mike
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 27, 2015 11:30 pm

Another take---2005 with 18,000km just is not been ridden or is ridden enough-----I suggest, 500km trip riding hard, which should run 2 tankfulls thru......and then see how it runs----to me looks like it has had life time of short trips.
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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28, 2015 9:22 am

John, I have ridden my SW hard and fast on the highway, but only for short distances. It does seem to alleviate the problem. I never thought of a longer trip. Definitely in my plans.
Mike, my gas tank bars don't move until 100 kms or so. It takes a good 5 litres at that point. When it does move, it goes to half very quickly. I rely on my trip odometer, and calculate 20 km/litre. If I ride hard, I use 12-15km/L. I haven't been too far in my calculations, and haven't been stranded by a dry tank.
I find it a tad thirsty for a 600, but the ride has no equal.
Jay.

PS. I am selling mine as I want to get a CTX 700 T. I want to trade, but I don't think the dealer will give me $3000.00.
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Mike from NS
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 28, 2015 9:56 am

Jay, the CTX 700t is a fine looking machine .... I like in the red colour.

You should get $3000 from kijiji sale. The S'Wing is a great machine. This idle problem is a small (but annoying) bump in the road.

I'm going to replace the plugs with NGK Iridiums. Reading the site's thread on this, a post by Silver Wing Guru of Georgetown Tx says how he found the switch brought his idle speed back into the proper range. An increase by 300 rpm from where it was. He replaced the plugs before playing with idle screws -- then didn't need to. Sounds familiar. But your plug replacement didn't have that effect I gather.

I like John's suggestion too. Might take a day and repeat my Peggy's Cove - Queensland Beach run twice the same day.

Good luck in selling your S'Wing.

Mike
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Mike from NS
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 08, 2015 1:34 pm

I want to share, in thanks, for the suggestions, what I did that seems to have possibly cured but certainly lessened my low idle to stall problems. Maybe to early for a return of 100% confidence but the confidence is certainly returning. So ..... what I did: changed the out spark plugs with new - not iridium as was my desire - they were not available at the dealer nor auto parts store where I searched for them. However this brought on a much more smoothly running bike. This alone didn't cure the stall. Then I took the suggestion of running it hard and got it up to 122kph for a short spell and took a ride for close to 150kms. The starting with a better idle speed started to re-appear. Then I siphoned the tank and filled with premium gas and added the appropriate amount of Seafoam and went for another longish ride. It starts really well with an idle of 1800 - 2000 and warms up with a dropping idle which levels out at 1300-1100. Other times, when warm-up, it may start with an idle of about 800 but quickly goes above 1000. I went for a long steady ride yesterday of about 210 kms and each restart has been back to normal. It hasn't stalled out at start since the 122kph short distance. I haven't touched an idle screw or other adjustment. One other thing I did was charge the battery over night one night. This, the new plugs, premium gas, and the short burst at 122 seems to have cured my problem. Maybe not 100% confident yet but 80% I think. Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.

Jay, how did you make out with your ... it was your thread after-all. Maybe try charging the battery too?

Mike
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"Hi Yo"
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 08, 2015 6:35 pm



Mike,

Thanks for the follow up. Too often we are left to wonder. So, the S' Wing just likes to run. Mine too. cheers
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model28a
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 08, 2015 7:01 pm

applause cheers  applause Let me also thank you for the follow up.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 8:13 am

Nice to see bike is running fine-----not being ridden, older,never being ridden even worse. Many used SilverWings, 10 more years old, low miles----guess nobody likes to ride.
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Mike from NS
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 10:16 am

"Hi Yo", Roger and John,

So far so good with the idle issue ..... as long as it improves ... I've learned something.  For all the help that was offered .... it is almost a moral obligation to let you know the out come to date.  Who knows .... my experience and Jay's may help make life better for someone else with the similar problem.  This site is a wealth of information and I appreciate that for sure.    My next problem, that I've been researching here, is a sometimes rattle  - like a heavy nut ( say 3/4" heavy) bouncing around in the left glove box at times.  Usually after well warmed up and giving more throttle at say 70 kph.  As the speed picks up the rattle vanishes until the next increase in speed.  It may rattle from 70 to 75 or 80 then settles out. I'm resisting calling it a slapping noise because I know where that would lead .... but if the belt is stretched from warm up I suppose it may be slapping.  I'm inclined to think sliders or rollers being worn is the problem.  More research to do ..... but I like the simple problem of slapping cables beneath the cowling. I have about 16,700kms on the bike so a bit early for belt wear but then it is 10 years old.

Thanks again for the idle help.  I'll advise when I regain 100 % confidence that it is cured.
Mike
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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 11:36 am

Hey Mike, glad to hear your problem is better. I took mine out for a long hard ride down to Sussex; passed just about everything that was ahead of me. On the return trip I took it a bit easy. My idle goes to 1500 on start-up, but settles down to 12-1300 , no hesitations. It is staying smooth. Like yourself, I put in new plugs at the start of the season. I think the bikes need a good carbon run: high speed to burn off the impurities that clog up the insides.
Reminds me of my first Mini, 1960's. I got it off a guy who drive like an old lady. I was on the M1 halfway to Northampton from North London, and the smoke behind me was thick!!!!! I got scared and pulled into the service area off the M1. The service guy reassured me that it was all the carbon burning off. Drove that Mini for another couple of years without problems !!!
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oldgwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 11:56 am

On my Sunday paper ride I make sure I hit one particular road, nothing but farm fields on both sides, hit and and hold the the 80 mph mark for a bit and back off, used to do the same on my G'wing. I run a tank of Techron twice a year also. SFSG
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 09, 2015 7:04 pm

I just cleaned out the non-existent carbon from my scooter yesterday with a mile long run at 114mph according to my GPS. It still amazes me how well these maxi scooters handle at high speed. Just as solid and smooth as my Goldwing at speed. I used to check out my Silverwing at the same location by seeing how fast it would go. Right around 105mph was what my '04 did, GPS verified. The speedometer was a lot more 'optimistic' showing over 110mph.
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Mike from NS
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Mike from NS

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PostSubject: Re: Low idle speed    Low idle speed  I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 10, 2015 8:07 am

Glad to hear yours is working better Jay. Guess the solution was to run them fast. I'm still wondering if my battery is weak. It starts in a sluggish manner (sometimes) but the idle increases to where it should be. Other times it starts with gusto at about 1800 and settles back to 1200. The premium gas and seafoam may have helped too. We are reading here of how a good hard run is good for them. Should be a note to this in the manual !

Mike

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