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 Wobbling sound coming from clutch area

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old fart
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yahooie
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PostSubject: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2012 12:05 am

Hi all. Could use some help. I did some searching on here and hadn't come across anything sounding like my issue so could use some advice before I start tinkering or bring it to the shop.

A few days ago I went on a ride with my son to pick up a few things from the store. As we were out I started to hear what I can only describe as a wobble sound coming from the clutch/ lower left side. This sound is noticeable at slow speeds under 20 and at take off. If anyone remembers riding a bicycle with one of the tires mounted incorrectly and it rubbed against the forks when riding? That is kind of the sound it is making. Wa wa wa wa wa. I know that isn't much to go on but it's all I got. The bike just eclipsed the 11000 mile mark. I changed the gear oil about 2000 miles ago. Any thoughts, input or recommendations would be greatly appreciated. I will bring it to the dealer as last resort but prefer to try to fix it myself if possible to save any money I can. This bike is my main source of transportation and I really can't do without it. Also, does anyone think that riding it will cause any damage to anything? It seems fine except for that noise? Thanks in advance for any help.
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2012 12:37 am

yahooie wrote:
This sound is noticeable at slow speeds under 20 and at take off.


0->15 would be the initial clutch (many threads with clutch noise)
16->115 would be the CVT

Does the sound occur above 15 MPH?
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RArch
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2012 1:37 am

Belt slap, caused by lots of slow riding. Just hold the brakes while reving to about 3-4k, a brisk drive will also help. Try a search on belt slap and you will find a few threads.
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2012 7:21 am

Remove the cover and Do an inspection and clean up.The clutch bell is easy to remove and use sand paper to take the shine off the pads. Mark the bolts and cover before removing them.
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yahooie
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2012 9:53 am

honda_silver wrote:
yahooie wrote:
This sound is noticeable at slow speeds under 20 and at take off.


0->15 would be the initial clutch (many threads with clutch noise)
16->115 would be the CVT

Does the sound occur above 15 MPH?

Above 15 mph I don't know if it does. As I pick up speed the sound goes faster. It isn't very loud
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yahooie
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2012 9:54 am

RArch wrote:
Belt slap, caused by lots of slow riding. Just hold the brakes while reving to about 3-4k, a brisk drive will also help. Try a search on belt slap and you will find a few threads.

Thanks. Did try this before and it didn't clear it up.
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yahooie
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2012 9:56 am

tinman wrote:
Remove the cover and Do an inspection and clean up.The clutch bell is easy to remove and use sand paper to take the shine off the pads. Mark the bolts and cover before removing them.

Thanks Tinman. I guess I am in for a little work. What do you mean when u say mark the bolts and cover? I haven't done this type of job before and as luck would have it my service manual is sitting on my desk at work and the office is closed until Wednesday.
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2012 11:11 am

Some bolts are longer then others Its a good practice to mark where they all go.Its the same with all the body screws,and it help to put things back in place. The shop manual recommends It. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2012 12:56 pm

Had the same issue on mine last summer. It was like the sound of a turbo prop airplane when the prop is feathered. Only happened on deceleration at low speeds.
Nobody had heard of it before.
When I tore it down I found that the bearing in the aluminium case was worn. This is where the final drive shaft fits in.
The shaft was OK but the bearing was all galled.
I replaced the bearing and all was well with the world. Not expensive and moderate skills required.
If this is your issue Here is what I did.
Put the bearing in the freezer.
Use a hair dryer and heat up the case around the bearing. Once it is warmed tap it out.
Reheat the case with the hair dryer and place the cold bearing in place. Tap on the outer bearing race and install.
Put it all together and enjoy the quiet ride.
Good luck and happy holidays to all.
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yahooie
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2012 3:01 pm

old fart wrote:
Had the same issue on mine last summer. It was like the sound of a turbo prop airplane when the prop is feathered. Only happened on deceleration at low speeds.
Nobody had heard of it before.
When I tore it down I found that the bearing in the aluminium case was worn. This is where the final drive shaft fits in.
The shaft was OK but the bearing was all galled.
I replaced the bearing and all was well with the world. Not expensive and moderate skills required.
If this is your issue Here is what I did.
Put the bearing in the freezer.
Use a hair dryer and heat up the case around the bearing. Once it is warmed tap it out.
Reheat the case with the hair dryer and place the cold bearing in place. Tap on the outer bearing race and install.
Put it all together and enjoy the quiet ride.
Good luck and happy holidays to all.


I bought an extended warranty from the dealer. They told me to bring it in to take a look at it. Once they diagnose the issue they contact the warranty company who approves or denies the coverage based on whether or not its user related or manufacturer issue. Any ideas on if that is a normal wear part?
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 24, 2012 4:37 am

This bearing in my Silver Wing failed at 33,000 miles. I had the shop replace the part and it runs great. Cost me $290 US.
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 24, 2012 5:21 am

When I took the cover of to do an inspection last summer i notice that the bearing inside the cover was dry .Honda use a thick grease on that bearing and the grease was not applied to the bearing ,only stuck to the cover.I suspect that many Swing are in the same set up with dry bearing.Remove the bell housing and you will see the dry needle bearing.
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yahooie
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 27, 2012 8:42 am

Bearing inside cover seemed fine. Thanks for suggestion. I am curious and need to ask, what do you guys use to clean the belt dust on the inside? I was going to use brake cleaner but hesitated as I assume that it would eat away any bearing grease. There wasn't a ton if it but some on the inside cover around the cover bearing and some also around here and there. I hadn't taken apart the clutch or variator yet. I just ordered 22 gram sliders and am excited to install them. I will be building the wooden makeshift variator tool and also buying a torque wrench either online from amazon or going down to harbor freight. Any ideas what size sockets that I need for removing the variator nut and the clutch nut?
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 27, 2012 9:42 am

Did you remove the clutch bell housing there is a needle bearing that that needs to be greece.Use the emergency brakes to lock the wheel,then remove the nut on the end.
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yahooie
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 27, 2012 10:37 am

Hadn't gone that far yet. Took the cover off to see what I was getting myself into. This weekend I will have more time. The sound seems to come and go. Right now it is gone. I just ordered the 22 gram sliders so maybe next weekend when they come I will be taking it all apart. Any suggestions on what to clean everything with? Also does anyone know do I use dry lube on the sliders?
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 27, 2012 8:58 pm

No lubrication is needed.Any lubrication can contaminate the drive belt causing slippage on the drive face plates.
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yahooie
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 27, 2012 10:11 pm

Excellent thank u. Very excited also changing plugs this weekend to iridium.
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 27, 2012 10:30 pm

I have 31k kl on my Swing same plugs in perfect condition, same roller still in good condition ,same drive belt in good condition . I get 65 to70 mpg. If its not broken don't fix it. The best money you can spend is on a service manual,bar none.Make it your Swing bible. Smile motorcycle
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 27, 2012 10:40 pm

Well something is amiss with my bike. Only 11500 miles and the noise which comes and goes. Will be taking it all apart this weekend or next.
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2012 4:50 pm

yahooie wrote:
Also, does anyone think that riding it will cause any damage to anything? It seems fine except for that noise? Thanks in advance for any help.

When you consider 'damage to anything', be sure to include yourself. The noise may be in your drive system, then again it may be brakes, rotor, or who knows. Not to be an alarmist, but met a SWing rider that had some stuff get loose and it resulted in him going down - causing a lot of damage to bike - he was lucky. So, err on side of caution and be sure to confirm it is a 'harmless' noise.

My SWing is a cacophony on noises when starting out and they seem to vary from day to week to month - and I have learned to accept them. However, once I get going (i.e., the clutch has locked in) - or am slowing down - the noises don't seem to be bothersome and things are pretty smooth (I have Dr Pulley Sliders). So, if your clutch is engaged AND you are hearing noises - especially scraping noises - then it is time for a look see. Also check that it is not something else making that noise on the back end of your SWing.

RArch wrote:
Belt slap, caused by lots of slow riding. Just hold the brakes while reving to about 3-4k, a brisk drive will also help. Try a search on belt slap and you will find a few threads.

Is belt slap caused by slow riding? I thought the prescribed cure noted above was for getting your clutch to clean off 'clutch glaze' so it engaged without a lot of shudder?

tinman wrote:
Some bolts are longer then others Its a good practice to mark where they all go.Its the same with all the body screws,and it help to put things back in place. The shop manual recommends It. Smile
I am one who forgets to mark bolts, so here is how I remember. The left cover (aluminum) is held on by 9 bolts each 6mm in diameter. 5 of these are 40mm long and 4 are 32 mm long. The longer bolts are all BLACK while the shorter ones are all SILVER. You can see all of the BLACK bolts when looking at your scooter from the left side - which is why they are BLACK (to match the BLACK plastic cover). You can not see any of the SILVER bolts until you remove the left plastic BLACK cover held on by the BLACK bolts. You can confirm this by looking at the SWing online parts diagram for the SWINGARM. Having said all this maybe it is indeed easier to 'mark the bolts'!




"I bought an extended warranty from the dealer. They told me to bring it in to take a look at it. Once they diagnose the issue they contact the warranty company who approves or denies the coverage based on whether or not its user related or manufacturer issue. Any ideas on if that is a normal wear part?"
Guess you need to check your warranty; however, everything (except for drive belt) in the drive area is NOT listed under the maintenance section of the services manual - so hopefully your warranty will cover whatever is wrong.

tinman wrote:
Did you remove the clutch bell housing there is a needle bearing that that needs to be greece.Use the emergency brakes to lock the wheel,then remove the nut on the end.
While it is true that the needle bearing needs grease it is also important to note that Honda packed it with a heavy Lithium Grease (NLGI3 - consistency of vegetable shortening - like cold margarine). So when you look into the needle bearing area they appear dry - but the lithium grease is likely there and doing its job. If you stick a finger in there you will be amazed how stiff it is. You don't need to overpack this bearing area as you will likely be using a Lithium grease with an NLGI of 2 (you can buy his in any auto store - while NLGI of 3 is near impossible to get - my Honda dealers don't use NLGI 3 and they don't even know what it is - they use NLGI 2 - the 3 is specified by Honda, I think, as there are NO SEALS on either side of this needle bearing and what leaks out, if any did/would, would be getting into your belt area - not good - NLGI3 withstands high impact while staying in place - which is why Honda likely used it). This needle bearing operates only at very low rpm as once the clutch engages - this needle bearing is no longer rolling (it is locked up).


tinman wrote:
The best money you can spend is on a service manual,bar none.Make it your Swing bible. Smile motorcycle
+1
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yahooie
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2012 5:03 pm

Thank u very much for the input. Just took apart the variator and put some Dr. Pully sliders in. Did not disassemble the clutch. Will get to that next time. This was the first experience with taking apart the variator and getting in depth as opposed to just taking a look around.

Can anyone tell me what size nut is on the clutch?
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2012 5:41 pm

Damn. On way home and broke down. I am thinking variator nut came loose. Bike mechanic stopped to check on me and said have to use lock tight on bolt to keep it from coming loose. Crap. Glad it's still 2012 otherwise would be crappy start to 2013
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2012 6:20 pm

yahooie wrote:
.... use lock tight on bolt to keep it from coming loose.

First, sorry to hear about your breakdown - OUCH! Hoping it all works out OK. I upgraded my roadside AAA coverage to PLUS so that they would tow my motorcycle (did this after I tried to help a fellow rider who broke down and when I called AAA found out that I did not have motorcycle coverage).

I have changed by belt and disassembled the variator a bunch of times but have never used locktite. Th e Honda Service Manual page 10-9, states, "Apply oil to the drive pulley face nut threads and seating surfaces and install the nut". If I used locktite on my drive nut I would likely have to invest in a much bigger breaker bar AND develop a much bigger set of arm muscles (with is not going to happen at my age!) or get an impact wrench (which I do not have).


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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2012 7:39 pm

That AAA towing service caught my brother short on a bike trip once. He got a flat on his BMW 1100RT in the middle of nowhere Southern ID. He called AAA and told them he needed a tow to get his BMW to a town where he could get a tire. When the tow driver showed up he contacted AAA and they told him my brother's coverage was only for a car not a bike. After scratching our collective behinds a bit the tow driver just wrote BMW on the ticket and didn't put the model in and took the bike to the next town for us. What AAA didn't know wouldn't hurt them.
That might be a benefit for someone who has one of the new BMW scooters.
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2012 8:14 pm

exavid wrote:
What AAA didn't know wouldn't hurt them.

This approach worked for me, out of ignorance, when I told them I had a Honda - they came and gave me a jump - no questions asked - but it did not work the 2nd time - so, give it a go - but don't count on it. Happy New Year!
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2012 8:59 pm

I have Geico motorcycle insurance and they tow it for free to the nearest authorized dealer even if its 50 miles. The wife came to my rescue tonight and brought me the tools I needed to take it apart. It was the variator bolt. It came loose. Anybody have any suggestions on what to do to keep this from happening again? The manual says torque to 76 lbs but that seemed too little yesterday when I changed the rollers. I cranked it to about 100 ran it a bunch to make sure the belt wasn't wedged keeping them part but not tightened down all the way. Tonight I didn't have the holding tool because my son forgot to give it to my wife so I put an Allen wrench in one of the holes and tightened down the bolt as much as I could hand tighten it. I don't believe it was up to specs without the torque wrench and the holding tool
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 01, 2013 4:10 pm

Are you guys saying the noise is the bearing in the outside cover or does he need to pull the clutch off leaving the clutch outer on and there will be a bearing inside of clutch ? Thanks










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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 01, 2013 7:38 pm

Silverwing28681 wrote:
Are you guys saying the noise is the bearing in the outside cover or does he need to pull the clutch off leaving the clutch outer on and there will be a bearing inside of clutch ? Thanks

Both - Check the manual and the exploded parts list to see what is going on here.
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2013 3:13 pm

Hey guys, ! Ok I took the cover off my wing today, Pulled the clutch off and checked out the bearings ! The needle bearing was good on grease, But I can not say the same for the roller bearing at the end of the clutch ( on the inside shaft ) the outside cover bearing was good !

The roller bearings did not have very much grease at all on them, So I put grease on a zip tie to get in there to them to get them greased up ! Put it all back together and it runs like a champ ! Very, Very quite, It did have a little noise coming from the clutch area before.

For anyone out there that has never done this it is easy does not take long. All you need is

8 mm socket
12mm socket
5 mm Allen
and 8 mm Allen

17 mm socket for variator
22 mm socket for clutch !

And good grease no cheap stuff !

thank you guys for helping out with the information ! You guys are super awsome !!!!!!!










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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2013 5:31 pm

Nice easy fix, just what we like... Thanks for sharing your findings Smile

This is one for the Todo list when next looking at the belt.
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbling sound coming from clutch area   Wobbling sound coming from clutch area I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2013 8:02 pm

Thanks ! Ya check it out next time you are in there, Unlike my TaoTao scooter where I used the Snap on impact gun to tighten the variator I made a tool for the Silver Wing, And went to spec,


It only takes a short amount time to make a variator tool !

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