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 How can the brake delay be tested?

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steve_h80
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LarryB
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How can the brake delay be tested? Empty
PostSubject: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 24, 2012 6:12 pm

With the front wheel off the ground, I give it a good spin and apply the left brake lever. The tire stops immediately with no delay, even with a light touch. Is this normal? Shouldn't the delay valve not apply the front brake for a second or two? Or, is the valve applying just a little force that would not affect the brake if the bike was on the road? Is there any way to test this valve? Thanks

LarryB
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RArch
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 24, 2012 7:30 pm

Interesting. I'd imagine the only way to know would be on a rolling road where you could compare the breaking force of each wheel.

Your experiment seems to prove that there is some leakage of pressure to the front but maybe its reduced when compared to the back brake.
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LarryB
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PostSubject: How can the brake delay be tested?    How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 24, 2012 7:53 pm

The service manual says the following:

This model is equipped with Combined Brake System. Check the rear brake operation as follows:

Place the scooter on its centerstand.
Jack up the scooter to raise the fromt wheel off the ground.

Operate the rear brake lever. Make sure the front wheel does not turn while the rear brake lever is operated.


It goes on to basically to say make sure no air is in the system, then start changing out parts. If this is the only test, my next step is to bleed the system. The delay valve is around $110 shipped. Ouch!!Sad

The brake fluid levels are good, but the fluid is brown. So, I'll flush the entire brake system and go from there, but I sure would like a better test for the valve.

Anyone got any experience with this?
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 05, 2021 4:44 pm

As a continuation to this topic, I am beginning to suspect my delay valve could be faulty. Whilst some members will be thoroughly bored to tears by now with my rear brake lever issues, it's the only part (apart from the hoses themselves) which I have not replaced.

I wonder if any of the more technically informed members could say whether the delay valve can have 'intermittent' or 'variable' loss of pressure? Tonight, I had two, non-consecutive, moments of 'no pressure' from the rear break lever and then it was fine. Quite bizarre, and scary! I will replace the delay valve if need be but I'd like to know if it's one of those things that either works, or it doesn't.

Hydraulics is not my strong point and it's a function of my bike which I am not familiar with, although I'm learning..I think...uh...yeah, I'm sure I am cat
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Terry Smith
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 05, 2021 5:31 pm

How can the brake delay be tested? Delay10

This image is from the 98 VFR800 manual and describes the delay valve in that bike's linked brakes. I would expect the overall design will be similar to the Swing minus the second front disc.
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 06, 2021 3:56 am

My understanding of it is that the delay is related to pressure build not time.
Thus spinning the raised front wheel won't show any delay because very little braking force is required to slow it. On the road it works, a gentle application mostly affect the rear but increased braking force brings on the front, on some bikes, CBF1000 for instance, this can be felt as increased fork dive.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 06, 2021 8:50 am

How was the rear master cylinder as bad as front?  Delay valve on a car is called a proportioning valve works about the same way. In 30 some years never replaced one on any Honda vehicle unless someone had contaminated the system with oil and seals all swelled up. Newer stuff all runs through ABS unit no valve.

I'll bet rear master is bad. Pull lever if it slowly comes to bar it's bad. my 2$
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 06, 2021 12:57 pm

Mech 1 twa, you must be psychic or you're a technical genius. During my 40+ mile ride today I was cruising at about 60mph and something compelled me to pull the rear brake lever...ever..so..slowly. It came all the way back to the bar without making the slightest braking on the bike.

If I pull the lever in the normal fashion the brakes are fine. Rear master is my conclusion too. I remember replacing the piston kit on it some years ago and seem to remember not being quite happy with it but I can't think why. I probably bought the cheapest on the market at the time as I was skint.

As it happens, I have a new kit in the garage which I think I bought from Honda. Anyhow, better get it fixed. I'm still curious to know how this could happen, what's going on in there?
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 06, 2021 2:33 pm

Fluid is pushing past internal seals. Faster lever pull expands seals a little and it holds pressure slow it just bleeds past. Psychic nor genius just 30 plus years wrenching keep us posted.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 06, 2021 2:48 pm

Just ordered OEM kit and will have it fitted by local shop.

Will do. thumbs up
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 07, 2021 11:54 am

So if the brake delay/proportioning valve can be effected by hydraulic system contaminates is it possible then to rebuild the valve? And if so where to source those seals, etc.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 07, 2021 12:56 pm

Judging by the service manual it comes as a unit. I believe I'm right in saying that Honda will only supply things like valves, calipers and master cylinders as an assembly or a sub-assembly. I would suggest that it's the same for the delay valve. I guess if after market seals are available then a rebuild should be possible.

If what Tim asks is valid, what about the Modulator too? Does the same apply for that?

Incidentally, what does the modulator do?
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 07, 2021 1:12 pm

Isn’t a modulator the magic box that makes the ABS work?
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 07, 2021 1:23 pm

I've relieved to hear that. My 'Ole Gal' doesn't have such a device but I suppose the name of the device is a bit of a clue, now that you mention it.
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terrier
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 07, 2021 2:52 pm

Just noticed this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FJS600-Silverwing-Brake-Proportional-Valve-Genuine-Honda-2005-2010-741/184323700673?fits=UKM_Make%3AHonda&hash=item2aea8c77c1:g:GUMAAOSwDAxe4Ihj
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 07, 2021 2:58 pm

Looks like a bargain to me, assuming it's working OK. I suppose the next question is, where abouts on the bike to we find it?
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 07, 2021 5:54 pm

Delay valve is not rebuildable it's sealed unit. No parts even if it it could somehow be taken apart without damaging it.  SW's with ABS don't have a delay valve it's all controlled by ABS unit modulator something like thisHow can the brake delay be tested? Modula10 Photo is is from a car type but Honda for sure.
Looks like valve is in Right front area and a lot needs to be taken apart to replace it.  Maybe pulling right cubby it might be visible.
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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 07, 2021 7:21 pm

Just checked Ron Ayers parts diagram and it shows the delay valve for my 2012 ABS ??
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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 07, 2021 7:23 pm

How can the brake delay be tested? Sw8212
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 07, 2021 7:35 pm

I'm wrong then never looked at parts diagram. I'm more used to auto systems must be the linked system then.
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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 07, 2021 8:32 pm

Mech 1 twa wrote:
I'm wrong then never looked at parts diagram.  I'm more used to auto systems must be the linked system then.  

Yes, all years SW have linked rear to front linked brakes, regardless if ABS or not.. by design the rear wheel should drag/stop before the front wheel stops turning, the increase in pressure at rear brake is what opens flow to front brake caliper linked piston, maybe it could be tested with a helper spinning other wheel ?
just an idea !!
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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 09, 2021 2:39 pm

Well a little solo brainstorming and I was able to somewhat test the delay valve, the valve is stand alone and it's strictly hydro/mechanical actuated at certain pressure, IOW valve will open at same pressure wheter bike is moving or not, to supply front caliper. This test does not provide actual valve shift pressure, but neither does Honda. In the other hand IMO is way better than the BS test in shop manual, it could be stuck open, here you can actually see if it works or not.

 Here my procedure:

1. Place bike in centerstand, raise front wheel enough to spin, turn handlebar full left.

2. Tie a single length of string with some slack between front and back wheels on RH side of bike, 
    loop around tire and/or spoke where you can pull to rotate wheel.(Rh side was easier for me)

3. Apply rear brake while pulling slowly on string on rear tire until tire stops and is not easy to pull, 
    "stop and hold lever position". In my case it was sligthly after brake light switch "clicked". aprox. 
    1/8 in./4mm. lever movement after click(I used my left hand on brake and right on string, NP)

4. Now pull the string slowly the other way from front tire, it should spin(mine did), continue pulling 
    brake lever until front wheel stops, in my case it did sligthly before the starter limit switch "clicked".

5. May have to redo a few times until you get the feel for it, mine worked 1st time no issues.

6. Put bike in normal configuration, normal disclaimer, try at your own risk, etc.

 HTH, zrx212


Last edited by zrx212 on Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 09, 2021 5:04 pm

Obviously the procedure above is for a one man job, if you have a helper is may be simpler ??, but I like to be able to feel 1st hand when things happen.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 11, 2021 12:32 pm

Just to round off my own experience, it seems my delay valve is working OK. Had the master cylinder fixed today and the shop also noticed that the rear caliper pistons were a bit gummed up so they fitted new seals, the pistons were OK. So that means that after......

New Rear Caliper Seals
New Discs
New Pads
New OEM front master cylinder sub assembly
New rear master cylinder piston kit.
Refurbed Front Caliper
New Oil Washers

...that the brakes are working better than ever.

I think I can actually feel the relay valve working, or maybe it's my imagination. It sure is good to have 'solid' brakes again.


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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: How can the brake delay be tested?   How can the brake delay be tested? I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 11, 2021 8:42 pm

Solid brakes is all that matters old bikes need more TLC. Flush that fluid every 2 years and check caliper slides every time a tire is replaced. It was so nice today almost called off work to ride should have it's been awhile like months. Winter.
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