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 Complete brake failure - Another Update

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lcseds
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Complete brake failure - Another Update Empty
PostSubject: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 10:34 am

Wife was driving to work this morning. Swing started vibrating badly and the brakes failed. She was able to pull into a gas station and called me for help. When I got there, I could pull both brake levers right to the grips with no resistance. Dang scary. Lucky she was only going about 20mph. Had it towed to the shop. We will see what they say. It's a 2009 with about 3600 miles. Any one hear of a similar situation?


Last edited by lcseds on Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 10:44 am

"Vibrating badly", then total brake loss? I can only think that a caliper came loose, tangled with the wheel and a brake line got cut.

I've never heard of a total brake loss on the SW before.

Please let us know what the problem turns out to be.

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lcseds
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 10:57 am

I am no mechanic, but brake assemblies are intact. Hoses intact. No fluid. No obvious wheel or tire issues. The bike looks normal. The parking brake, which is cable operated seems to work. It's a mystery for me.
Funny because I joined the forum yesterday because I was thinking of trading my Suzuki cruiser in on a new Swing like my wifes. Now the next day, I have this.
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Waspie
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 11:44 am

Where does it appear the fluid has exited from? With empty reservoirs it has to have left at some physical point.

That will help diagnose the problem.

What's going through my mind is faulty seal, master cylinder perhaps!!!! Pure guessing.
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 12:10 pm

Sounds to me, like space aliens must have taken your brake fluid!!!! alien beamed up Dam Space Aliens!!!

All kidding aside, I'm very glad your OK. That's a very scary thing to have happen.

This is a very rare thing to have happen. I've been on this forum for a while now and this is very strange occurrence.

Please let us know what you find out.
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lcseds
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 12:26 pm

Sorry. I did not word that correctly, no brake fluid leaking. Embarassed
Everything looked normal.

I'm OK. My wife was driving it. Luckily she did not panic.
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 12:35 pm

I'm very happy to hear she is OK.
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BlackFly
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 12:36 pm

I think it could be the delay timing valve.
I don't know the Honda CBS exactly but normaly there must be a valve that activate die front brake if you use th left brake handle and this should be a little bit later than the rear brake.
But i think in this case the right brake handle should not be affacted...
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Pendragon
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 1:30 pm

Hi, one question; is it the ABS model?
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lcseds
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 1:37 pm

Yes. ABS.
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Pendragon
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 1:56 pm

Okay, I can make a tentative deduction based on what I've read so far; I suspect the ABS mechanism caused (a) the vibration, which is normal when ABS engages, (b) the subsequent lack of braking power because it couldn't make up it's mind what to do. I suspect that your wheel rings could be dirty, or your brake fluid needs changing. Your ABS sensors need inspection also. Did the ABS light on the dash flash?
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Pendragon
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 1:57 pm

Pee Ess, did you check your fuses and relays?
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 2:55 pm

What ever you find out about this... share... this is the first major malfunction I have read about in the 4 years I have been involved with the Silverwing. It is important that we all learn from your wifes experience.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 3:06 pm

x


Last edited by bigbird on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DickO
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 3:19 pm

"Hi Icseds"
Dang, scary situation; even at 20 mph. Still,,, if everything is intact, it just doesn't make sense with just those symptoms (ie, how did the one actually affect the other / and, at the moment, other unanswered questions). Yes, It will be very interesting to see what your chosen mechanic comes up with. Good to hear the wife is okay tho'. Good Luck; this is really an odd one.
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lcseds
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 7:41 pm

After work I talked to my wife a little more. Some other strange happenings also. Half way to work, after stopping at a light, she said the throttle response was poor. She cranked the throttle to max to try and get 45 mph out of it. When she released, she said more than engine braking was at work. It tried to stop....quickly. Shortly after that it began to shake. Thinking she had a tire going down, she pulled into a gas station. After checking the tires, the brake levers failed. So I guess it was not as dangerous as I had thought (she was a little upset this morning, so I didn't go for all the details at that time).
No ABS or other warning lights. This should be interesting to hear about as it seems as though the brakes were stuck on leading to the throttle and braking issue. Yet the dead brake levers indicate there may be no fluid. If the fluid was leaking, the brakes should not have been "engaged". And then the wobble, which may be something different. Lot's going on here, some seem related, some don't make sense.
This is the first safety related failure I have had after 25 years of motorcycling and 7 different bikes. We had a 2007 Silverwing for about a year and it was flawless. The 2009 that failed today still has a few weeks of warranty left (if it applies to this situation), so it is at my Honda dealer. Too bad there are two dozen other bikes there now also as the weather in NC, US is finally coming up into the 60's. Many are blowing the dust off and bringing the bikes in for a spring service. Not sure when then will look at ours. I will come back here and report the findings. Thanks for the opinions. It is indeed a little bizarre.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 7:47 pm

I'll now change my diagnosis to that of DennisB:
Alien intervention.
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lcseds
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 7:48 pm

I concur.
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Pendragon
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 8:08 pm

Well, keep us informed (inquiring minds want to know) and all that. Glad for your warranty, this is weird.


Pendragon: '06 Silverwing abs, '97 Valkyrie tourer, '06 ST1300A, Retired.
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 16, 2011 8:54 pm

lcseds wrote:
The 2009 that failed today still has a few weeks of warranty left (if it applies to this situation), so it is at my Honda dealer.

I believe you can extend the Honda Warranty while the Honda Warranty is still in effect. It may be worth pricing the extended Honda Warranty at the Honda dealer and internet.
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lcseds
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 18, 2011 1:48 pm

Update.....Went to the dealer at lunch and it is repaired but being held hostage until they contact Honda and see if warranty can be applied.

The front brake was dragging. A lot. The brake fluid boiled which led to dead levers. He changed the pads and flushed the brake lines. No ABS errors in the computer. He test drove it a few miles, no problem. However, they do not know why the front brake engaged. They were thinking maybe debris. I would think debris would impair the braking, not force the application of the brake. It'll be a couple hundred dollars I suppose if they claim "debris". Not easy to argue any of it either as this is very rare and may well have been caused by something other than the scoot's braking system. But I think I will ride it a couple weeks, and keep the distances somewhat short.


Last edited by lcseds on Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 18, 2011 2:44 pm

Thanks for the up-date. Very strange indeed.
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Pendragon
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 18, 2011 2:51 pm

Well, I have ridden on Goldwing drill teams, and seen brake fail under this application, but never on the street. If something was pressing Both brake levers down slightly, I could grant some credibility to their diagnosis. Why would a front brake problem cause rear brake failure? Enquiring minds want to know :-) I would be delighted to know what Honda's warranty dept. comes up with; debris?
Pendragon
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rogerscoot
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 18, 2011 4:06 pm

The front brake caliper has three pistons...the two outer pistons operating from the front brake........the middle piston is operated by the back brake and so when the caliper gets too hot it boils the fluid from both brakes.
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 18, 2011 5:48 pm

Basic question: If the fluid "boils", does it go some place like "away"? Early on in thread statement of no evidence of leak. If it doesn't go anywhere, would the viscosity change so much that it leak around seals internally? I know that when any liquid boils some liquid changes to gas and that would cause loss of hydraulics. As shown in the table below, boiling point is hot. I see how seals could fail. But I would expect some evidence of seal failure either internally or externally.

Boiling points for common braking fluids
Dry boiling point Wet boiling point
DOT 3 205 °C (401 °F) 140 °C (284 °F)
DOT 4 230 °C (446 °F) 155 °C (311 °F)
DOT 5 260 °C (500 °F) 180 °C (356 °F)
DOT 5.1 270 °C (518 °F) 190 °C (374 °F)

Wet boiling point defined as 3.7% water by volume.

Viscosity
For reliable, consistent brake system operation, brake fluid must maintain a constant viscosity under a wide range of temperatures, including extreme cold. This is especially important in systems with an anti-lock braking system (ABS), traction control, and stability control (ESP).

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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 18, 2011 8:05 pm

x


Last edited by bigbird on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 18, 2011 8:59 pm

Does the vapor remain or does it condense back to fluid as it cools? I know about the non compressablity of the liquid. And I know if you get "air" in a brake line, you would have to bleed the system. I just never encountered a boiling system before. Never heard of it for that matter. Is this a common occurrance with two wheelers? I guess if a 4 wheel system every boiled, the same problem would be present. This is a learning experience for me. Thanks for the explaining.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 18, 2011 9:08 pm

x


Last edited by bigbird on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lcseds
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 18, 2011 9:17 pm

Bigbird replied while my slow hand typed, so some redundancy here...

Boiling brakes is more typical of squeezing the brakes all the way down the Rocky Mountains. More typical in auto racing than anything else, but still rare. I have never lost pedal pressure in all my years of driving cars or bikes. Including plenty of mountain twisty work which heats up the brakes.
The condition that happened with our Silverwing is something along the lines of squeezing the front brake lever tight and rolling the throttle full blast and riding for miles. Overheating fluid for the most part is not even a concern with modern brakes. The lines on the Silverwing were flushed because of air and water that may have accumulated during the boiling action. I'm no fluid engineer though.
I am at a loss as to how the brakes engaged. The rest of the theory as to what happened afterward is sound. It's the cause of the engagement that has me shaking my head.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 18, 2011 11:32 pm

Overheating brakes aren't uncommon on some motorcycles. The older Goldwings are suseptible to that problem to the point where the brakes lock up. Usually this is caused by the caliper being 'frozen' i.e. it can't move from side to side to even the pressure on both pads. Since there are pistons only on one side of the caliper the pistons must push the caliper away from the disk a bit to pull the inboard pads against the back of the rotor. If the caliper mounting bolts and sleeve get corroded and stuck this can't happen. This can cause the inboard pads to remain held against the disk which generates a lot of heat in the caliper and can cause brake lock up. I've repaired to older GWs in my old shop with exactly that problem. The Silverwing's calipers are mounted much the same way so it might be worth asking the dealer if the caliper is free to move.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 19, 2011 6:41 am

My take your wife needs to ride more, learn to sensitive to "funny" feeling of bike as you go along-----causes, maybe dirt/sand/salt....use of power washer. Boiling brake fluid, probably does not allow system to be pump up until system cools.


Bike is not high mileage, maybe not used enough. Could have been fatal.


John Grinsel
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lcseds
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 24, 2011 2:47 pm

Update 2. The shop had replaced the front brake pads and fluid and the brakes seemed fine. They also were going to contact Honda about the event and ensure warranty coverage. A fellow from Honda called me and apologized for the event and is having the shop replace all components related to brakes. Calipers, pads, ABS, rotor, etc. He is looking into what may have happened. I am happy they are going for the overhaul. If it was a stuck piston on the caliper, it is possible this could happen again. Not a confidence builder.
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Pendragon
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 24, 2011 2:59 pm

Good thing that Honda is going to honor it's warranty; I think you will be happy with the result, but if at all possible, see if you can find out what they think the problem originally was. Ride safe!

Pendragon
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 24, 2011 3:09 pm

x


Last edited by bigbird on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lcseds
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 12, 2011 4:47 pm

After seven weeks, the Swing is back home. Entire brake system replaced sans two pieces of brake line which Honda was unable to get to the dealer. Honda wanted the entire system sent to them as a single assembly for evaluation, but since so much time had passed, and I was getting royally pissed, they went without the two brake hoses and got the machine wrapped up.
$3500 in parts and labor was billed to Honda. Everything is new and brakes feel great. They replaced everything, right down to the levers. I hope for the safety of myself and my wife, this does not happen again.
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pancho
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 12, 2011 7:50 pm

Thank GOD no one got hurt, please post what the problem was. Thanks
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 12, 2011 8:04 pm

x


Last edited by bigbird on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lcseds
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 12, 2011 8:14 pm

I never expected to know about what failed. Honda can't have that kind of PR being spread. I can only hope that our case is of some use to them. But in reality, these Silverwings have been out and about for 9 years. We have had two, an 07 and 09. I've done a lot of time on Silverwing related forums and don't recall seeing this issue. I was VERY surprised at this failure.
But hey, this is why engineers capture samples, either for common failures or those that are rare. That's how designs get better.
Nobody was hurt, and maybe some part will be improved in the future.
And while this was in for repair, I bought a new Honda NT700. I have faith this was an isolated incident.
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KurtPerthWA
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 12, 2011 8:17 pm

This site has a good write up re Brake fade and associated problems.

http://www.torquecars.com/articles/brake-fade.php

Earlier this year I experienced severe rear brake fade on the MuZ. Scary to say the least. As the fluid is fairly old I suspect water contamination to be the culprit.
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tonylumps
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 5:45 am

Frozen calipers are most likely to happen after your bike has not been ridden for a while It happened to me on one bike and a Pick-up truck I had But I could feel the Brakes locking up. Someone who is not that savvy on Mechanics would not think about it and keep riding until the brakes heat up and think there is something wrong with the throttle. Take heed The first couple of rides check for free wheel at every stop sign or Red light. Losing brakes Totally,Now thats scary


Last edited by tonylumps on Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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papa johns
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 9:04 am

The service recommends changing brake fluid. Why does brake fluid go bad? Is it this unseemly boiling?
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 9:21 am

Basically it's because most brake-fluid is hydroscopic and absorbs water over a period of time.
Unlike brake-fluid, water is compressible so if there's too much, pulling on the brakes merely compresses it so doesn't apply the brakes.

I understand that the new fluid doesn't absorb water but isn't suitable for ABS brakes if the older stuff was used previously - any water in the system remains.

I stand to be corrected. Smile
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 13, 2011 10:25 am

x


Last edited by bigbird on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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buddy19520
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 21, 2011 4:52 pm

I know that, on an automobile, that there is a hole in the top of the cap on the master cylinder resevoir to allow for changes in the volume of fluid. This hole allows moisture to mix with the fluid.

Where on our Silverwing disc brakes does the moisture get in?

I bought my bike used at six years old. I had the fluid changed about two months ago. It might (repeat: might) feel a little firmer at the lever, but I couldn't swear to it. My point is that, at eight years old, the original fluid still worked well.
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AAAA
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 21, 2011 8:40 pm

Reservoirs have an expandable bladder inside the cap. This is to prevent, ostensibly, the air and brake fluid from dancing together. Your car has them, so does your Silverwing!
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buddy19520
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 21, 2011 11:00 pm

So where does the moisture come from?
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 22, 2011 12:34 am

buddy19520 wrote:
So where does the moisture come from?

https://www.silverwing600.com/t1687-front-brake-check#14029
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buddy19520
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 25, 2011 9:13 pm

honda_silver wrote:
buddy19520 wrote:
So where does the moisture come from?

https://www.silverwing600.com/t1687-front-brake-check#14029

I'll take that as a partial answer.

If the system is not hermetically sealed, and moisture can get in at joints and seals, wouldn't you have brake fluid getting OUT at those same joints and seals?

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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 25, 2011 11:39 pm

buddy19520 wrote:
If the system is not hermetically sealed, and moisture can get in at joints and seals, wouldn't you have brake fluid getting OUT at those same joints and seals?

Kinda of like a Gore-Tex jacket will not allow the large rain droplets in, but Gore-Tex allows for evaporation and is breathable allowing the evaporated moisture out.

If the H-2-0 molecule are smaller than the brake fluid ... then it would allow evaporated moisture in without letting brake fluid out.




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buddy19520
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PostSubject: Re: Complete brake failure - Another Update   Complete brake failure - Another Update I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 28, 2011 11:31 am

Now that is making sense! Thanks for the explanation.
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