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 Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage

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jdeereanton
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elricleano
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PostSubject: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 02, 2010 10:58 pm

Hi there!
First post at this forum and I'm looking for some help in getting "Back in the Saddle" again.
Two and a half years ago, I laid my 2002 Swing down in front of my parents house making a left hand turn. Apparently, a construction truck dumped a bit of gravel in front of the community's entrance and I was unlucky enough to hit it. Banged up my elbow and foot a bit, but was able to push my bike to my parents garage - where it stayed.
Fast forward to now...
Got a new job with some odd hours, wife's got the car I need to get the bike on the road.
I drained the gas when I stored it, and the dry weather here in Las Vegas, may have prevented any rusting of the gas tank.
I was told by a motorcycle repair guy over the phone was to fill the tank w/ high octane, remove the air filter's 6 screws (he's not really familiar w/ a Swing's design) hit it with 2 shots of Berryman-12, start the engine and then run it until the high octane gas cleans out the lines.
I was able to remove the rear left side panel (which needs to be mended - another story, the plastic cover under seat which exposes the carb (i think).
This is where I need help, I'm not exactly sure what to remove to access the carb and give 2 shots of Berryman-12. Any help, photos / diagrams would be greatly appreciated at this time.
Thanks,
~Elric
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tankyuong
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 02, 2010 11:35 pm

Get a new battery, fill up the tank, add SEAfoam from walmart and start her up .
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elricleano
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 02, 2010 11:52 pm

approx how much seafoam? sound easier than accessing the carb.
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 12:29 am

elricleano wrote:
I was able to remove the rear left side panel (which needs to be mended - another story, the plastic cover under seat which exposes the carb (i think).
This is where I need help, I'm not exactly sure what to remove to access the carb and give 2 shots of Berryman-12. Any help, photos / diagrams would be greatly appreciated at this time.
Thanks,
~Elric

Before you try the 2 shots of Berryman-12 (sounds like an alcholic drink for yourself or radioactive Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage Icon_razz ) ... you might just want to try starting the SWing.

If you still need the Berryman-12, then the SWing is fuel injected ... the injectors are under the seat. I believe if you
shoot in air filter intake
or
remove air filter then shoot in air-filter outtake
it would accomplish the same thing.

https://www.silverwing600.com/pictorials-how-to-perform-maintenance-f21/air-filter-pictorial-t56.htm?highlight=air+filter#125

Download the PDF from the link above.

Step 10 there is a line the points to the upper right corner screw that passes right over the intake for the air filter.
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elricleano
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 7:51 pm

Thanks for the replies!
Went out and got the Seafoam from Walmart, added an ounce and fired her up! (got a new battery, btw)
She started fine, turned her off and started again - fine, third time and she wouldn't start!
Mad

Now what? There was a fine light tan powder residue on the gas cap when I filled her w/ a gallon of high octane + 1oz of seafoam. I wiped this off the cap, but could this be some residue from evaporated gas?

Any advice would be appreciated once again! Laughing
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YammaPapa
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 8:43 pm

Hello elricleano. Have you ever noticed that when you start up your car, water comes out of your exhaust pipe? Same thing happens in a scooter engine...until you engine is good and warmed up, you have water (condensation) forming inside your combustion chamber. Your spark plugs are probably wet and if you wait a bit you can probably get it started if they dry up a little. If and when she starts up again let it run for a few minutes and rev it up a bit (make sure it's on the center stand!!!). Run it that way for a good ten minutes or so. This would be a good time to change the oil as it now has quite a bit of old and new condensation forming acids in your crankcase. If it won't start try holding the throttle wide open while cranking it over (15 seconds at a time with a cool down of a few minutes in between). If all else fails remove your spark plugs and wipe them down and clean the tips. The old gas that was in the fuel line may have fouled up your plugs...good luck and let us know how it goes.

ps...you shouldn't believe everything that you read on the INTERNET including my advice, but what the heck, you know what they say about free advice "You get what you pay for!" Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage Icon_lol

Knowitallguy
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elricleano
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 9:01 pm

Thanks for the follow-up YP. I'll let her dry out a bit and then follow your recommendations. I'll also follow up on the oil change procedure and start finding out how to do that next.
As for reading everything on the internet, I usually follow the the threads until I see a pattern of recommendations.
This "Back in the Saddle" project started out at $199 money back guarantee by calling a mechanic here in Las Vegas, then it led me to a mechanic that recommended the shot of B-12 then eventually to the Seafoam recommendation, so actually the process became cheaper as more research was done.
Usually, when you find a forum - you get alot of great advice and if any wrong advice is given, someone else would usually pipe up.
But of course that has been my experience so far!
So I hope you're steering me in the right directions - lol
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YammaPapa
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 9:35 pm

el. I agree with you. You usually find that the older the members of a forum, the more experienced and well thought out the answers.

I was hopping up a 50cc BWs (Zuma) and a C3 for my wife and had joined a forum for those only. I think that the average age of the members might have been 12 or 13! Some of the questions and answers were really wild. I had to read hundreds of posts on three different forums to get a general consensus and even then I had to use my own creativity and experience for 75% of the challenges I faced. What I did learn from the young crowd though was how to get to online catalogs to look up parts that I needed. I even had them help me post some pictures...my brain still hurts to this day from that and I'll never subject myself to that punishment again (I'm surprised that I'm able to somewhat get around this forum without any Tylenol!).

YammaPapa
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elricleano
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 04, 2010 10:46 pm

OK, I don't think condensation is the problem as I live here in Las Vegas and its dry as hell. Tried to give her some gas while hitting the start button but she wouldn't turn over.
I pulled the sparks plugs to see if they were gummed up, a lil dark, but they look fine, btw she's got 9,000 miles on her.
Charging up the batter now and will give it another try tomorrow.
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elricleano
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 05, 2010 3:12 pm

Took the sparks plugs out and gave them a couple good scrubs with a steel brush that took off all of the dark carbon and reinserted.
Took the battery off the battery tender w/ a fresh charge and reattached it.
Gave her a quick start and nothing - just the sound of the engine trying to turn over.
Opened up the throttle and hit the start button, again nothing except the sound of the engine trying to turn over.
Now I'm guessing there's some blockage somewhere...
Should've let her run when I intially had her started, now I'm thinking a drew up some gunk from the gas tank or gas line into the fuel injectors.
HELP!
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tankyuong
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 05, 2010 4:29 pm

either your fuel filter is clogged or air filter is, did you check for spark?
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elricleano
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 06, 2010 12:22 am

thanks for the reply, I don't have a manual so I don't know how to check the fuel filter. I did find the air filter on the right side of the swing and it was pretty gunked up so I plan to do the air mod w/ the unifilter as I am on a budget.
how does one go about checking for a spark? Do you back the spark plugs out and start it while connected to the electrical or is that a recipe for disaster?
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jdeereanton
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 06, 2010 5:17 am

At the risk of overstating the obvious - Have you checked the Kill Switch (located on the right hand side of the handle bar, just inboard of the throttle) to make sure it is in the run position?
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billc.
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 06, 2010 10:22 am

Or, another check ....is the sidestand down? Or, the brake squeezed REALLY HARD! billc.
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 06, 2010 11:15 am

You can check for spark by taking the one spark plug out and holding it next to something metal. Be careful when doing this, but if you hold it next to some metal and turn the engine over you will see a spark "arc" from the spark plug to the metal. This is how I used to do it when working on lawnmowers and the muscle car I had back in the '70's.

If you are getting spark then it seems that you aren't getting fuel. You may have fouled your plugs too by not letting the bike continue running the first few times you started it. If you do get it running I would let it run for quite some time. Maybe have a can of gas, with fresh gas, so you can fill it up with new gas as you let it run. Good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 06, 2010 2:32 pm

jdeereanton wrote:
At the risk of overstating the obvious - Have you checked the Kill Switch (located on the right hand side of the handle bar, just inboard of the throttle) to make sure it is in the run position?

Always a good suggestion.
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 06, 2010 8:31 pm

I appreciate the recommendation to check the kill switch and as I read this at work on my mobile, i was hoping that was the problem.
Alas, this is not the case.
Now, as for the recommendation about checking "the spark", is gas going to shoot out the spark plug hole or my scoot catch on fire or blow up?
As you can understand, I'm a little leery about trying things that involve gas and sparks. But if this is an accepted garage trick to check the spark, i'm game or is there a better way (on the cheap)

Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 06, 2010 10:45 pm

elricleano wrote:
Now, as for the recommendation about checking "the spark", is gas going to shoot out the spark plug hole or my scoot catch on fire or blow up?

http://www.ehow.com/video_4755891_test-spark-plugs.html
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 07, 2010 12:29 am

Spark plugs are cheap anyway it wouldnt hurt to replace them, but you still need to check for spark.
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 07, 2010 2:35 am

ok, watched the video and it was as described, pull the spark plug from the motor attach to the wire harness, place spark plug in contact with metal and start ignition and watch for spark.
My only concern is that the ehow video mentioned pulling the fuel injector fuse so gas doesn't flood the cylinder, which the 'expert' said would harm the engine. I ggogled fuel fuse for the swing and didn't come up w/ any results, so i'm wondering if this caution is applicable to my case.
As for replaxing the plugs, they're on my short list w/ the air mod, oil change - anything else while I got these fairings off?
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 07, 2010 7:58 am

It sounds like your scooter could use a new set of plugs, so just pull the spark plug wire and leave the old plug in the head. Use the new plug to preform the spark test.

When the test is done, install the new set of plugs.
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 08, 2010 7:59 pm

OK - got some new plugs and tried DennisB's idea! Good news the bike didn't blow up, but it didn't start either Crying or Very sad . At least I have new plugs.
I'm thinking blockage, but I'm no expert.
Any ideas? What should I try next?
Thanks for your patience and help in this matter - in advance!
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 08, 2010 8:32 pm

Just posing a thought - no basis in actual knowledge - was the fuel system dry for the long period of time? Is it possible that the injectors are seized? Fuel is a lubricant for the injectors.
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 08, 2010 8:50 pm

Just a thought...When you turn the key to "ON" do you hear the fuel pump kick in?
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 08, 2010 10:24 pm

JD - my Swing started 2xs before w/ the recommended Seafoam and new batt recommendation. Problem was I didn't let it run all the way through and on the 3rd try, it wouldn't turn over. I think I ran it just enough to draw some gunk where it wasn't suppose to be (my hypothesis).
Got new plugs and they sparked, so this is where I'm at now. I've also in the middle of an air filter mod, but that's another story, thread and problem all together Rolling Eyes

Dennis - I do hear the whir of the fuel pump I think, when turning the key on.
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elricleano
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 09, 2010 7:19 pm

I was looking on the site www.cheapcycleparts.com at several diagrams for the fcs600 and I didn't see any marked "fuel injectors".
Furthermore, seems like a kit to clean said fuel injectors run a couple hundred bucks (at least for cars). Is there something here that I'm missing?
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 09, 2010 8:34 pm

OK...It looks like you need to take the scooter to the shop and let a technical person look at it. If it was mine I would take it apart and repair it but it sounds like you might not have the needed information and the tools. Just my 2 cents.
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2010 12:32 am

Elricleano,

When you say the engine won't "turn over", am I correct in assuming that you mean it will crank but not run? If that's the case, then since you have spark and the fuel pump is running when you turn the ignition on, it seems reasonable to assume that the problem is indeed fuel related and closer to injectors.

As a first step, since it sounds like the engine may have been cranked for quite a while without running, I would suggest that you remove the fuel pump relay, take the plugs out, and crank the engine over to make sure it's not flooded. I don't know how much it would take to dry out the cylinders, but I would suggest starting with several (5?) 10 second cranks with a minute rest in between (to allow the starter to cool off and give any fuel time to evaporate). Make sure there's no dirt or anything around the plug hole - you don't want anything to get sucked in there. Reinstall the fuel pump relay and plugs and see if it starts.

If not, then my next suggestion would be to focus on the fuel rail and the injectors (owning the service manual and having reasonably good tinkering skills are
probably requirements for attempting these Smile ). The manual describes a fuel pump flow rate test that would 1) tell you if you're getting enough fuel to the injectors (presumably at the correct pressure...), and 2) get any old fuel that may have been in the lines out. There are also a few simple tests you can do with an ohm meter to check the electronics of the injectors. Beyond that, you may have to take the injectors out and soak the tips in some sort of cleaner if it seems like they're plugged.
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elricleano
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2010 1:11 am

http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/model_years/1067-honda-2002-silver-wing-FSC600/assemblies/15386

At least I found the fuel injector assembly (part 10).

EB - thanks for the idea. Now that I found that assembly at least I have an idea where to concentrate my tinkering. I've done this much myself, so let me digest your suggestion, come up with a game plan and some dedicated wrench time and I'll dive on in.

Keep those suggestions coming!

EDIT - BTW, I do appreciate the suggestions, even if they help or not and I hope that one day, someone who is having a hard time starting their Swing benefits from all the help I've received.
This next step is gonna be a doozy as I'll prolly be stepping in the realm of mechanic, but as long as i'm not messing w/ computer parts and keep a systematic diagram of how I take this fuel assembly apart - I should be okay. Time to bust out my Go Pro helmet cam and record things from here.
This site also seems more helpful than the other site cheers
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2010 8:39 am

One of the tools your going to need to borrow or buy will be a FI system fuel pressure gauge. Here is a link to a very nice set-up at a great price:

http://djvmerchandise.com/pro1355108.html

Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage ACTCP7838
What makes this test unit so nice is it has a valve and control tube to release the fuel presure in the fuel system manafold so you can do multable tests. Well worth the money and a must when working on the EFI systems on any vehicle. (This is the best price I have found on this testing tool).
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Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage Empty
PostSubject: Re: Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage   Back in the Saddle - getting a swing out of storage I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2010 5:24 pm

After hearing that Ashleyroland was having trouble starting her Swing, but it starting after the 56th try, I thought that maybe I should give it a couple more tries - maybe it'll clear itself out.
It's got a new battery so why not? Well after the 6th try, it's not making the same sound like it's trying to turn over anymore. Just a small 'cha' and that's it. Not like the chachachachacha, likes it trying to turn over.
Also, I didn't smell a strong presence of gasoline, like I've read on another site. This leads me to believe it's definitely a fuel problem.
But why did the sound change on the starting pattern? The light still seems bright. I'm afraid I'm binding something up.
Gonna reevaluate my finances and maybe have to take her into a shop. Crying or Very sad
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