rear brake lever locks up ?

The rear brake lever has been working normal for the last 18 years, but now over night it is very hard to pull/use. It was fine last week, both wheels turn very easy so something is causing it to be
unusable , The front brake lever works normal.
I replaced the front pads about a year ago and the rear pads about 6 months ago, Every thing has been working fine until now.
I need to get this fixed soon, Right now I am using only the front brake.

This sounds like a weird one to me. The first thing I would do is look for anything which might be physically obstructing the lever itself. Oddly enough, my rear lever has been putting up more resistance lately. It feels like I'm pushing against a dry master cylinder piston. If I squeeze the lever hard a few times in quick succession it frees-off. The problems occurs at random. I intend to have a look at the piston (without removing it), I just want to look behind the dust seal to see how it looks in there.

This could be just one possibility but you might need to see what the brake fluid in the rear reservoir looks like; gunge in the fluid could be swelling the seals. Further on from there it could be problem at the rear caliper. Have another look at the new rear pads in case they are not 'returning' properly. Also, the rear caliper pistons could be sticking through corrosion or gunge.

Besides assuming that brake fluid was replaced/bleed periodically (every 3-5yrs) and your system is not contaminated, etc. You either have blockage/ bad seals at master cylinder, or maybe you got dirt/dust into caliper seals when you pushed piston back in, binding the pistons, it doesn't take much to do it. Most owners usually just collapse pistons and slide pads in, but cleaning road grime, etc., from exposed chrome is almost a requirement IMO. A trick you can try, with caliper removed, is to push pistons out slightly 1/8 in./3mm by pulling brake lever, then clean exposed area of piston, etc. with a toothbrush and some alcohol, mild degreaser, etc. BTW, is always better to open bleed screw when collapsing the pistons, because moisture/crud always collect at lowest point (calipers), especially after brakes sit/cool down, no point on pushing it back into system, IMO.  

Sometimes you have disassemble/clean/overhaul the calipers to free them up, BTDT, years of road grime and corroded pistons could be the culprit. Since you have combined brakes/CBS on rear lever the rear caliper is suspect  

I think the post by rvtips is in reference to a 2002 Honda reflex with a rear brake problem.

Be safe, be seen!

JohnyC wrote:

I think the post by rvtips is in reference to a 2002 Honda reflex with a rear brake problem.

Be safe, be seen!

Maybe that "Need to know info" when asking advice , he did post on "Other Scooters and Motorcycles",

In any case most previous info still applies, the main difference is that the Reflex 250 uses a single piston rear caliper for both the hydraulic and mechanical parking brake, so there's a mechanical auto adjustment feature, so basically before you install new pads you must reset the caliper, turn piston in clockwise until it stops and position as shown in figure below, piston should turn smoothly, otherwise there's and issue.  BTW, you cannot compress/collapse this type of caliper like traditional ones, it will not move, may brake or damage it.

Well done zrx212, sorry about the poke but I figured you would probably know about a Reflex to.
Clarity wins the day.
I've never seen a live one.

Be safe, be seen!

Thanks for the "Poke", the rear caliper setup is not common, although similar system is used on Burgman 400, BTW the Reflex 250 is a good/well designed scooter, they are very easy to service, had combined rear brake and some had ABS, just a little underpowered, for highway use, etc.  the Forza 300/350 that kinda replace it does not have a parking brake, same goes for XMAX 300  

rvtips wrote:

The rear brake lever has been working normal for the last 18 years, but now over night it is very hard to pull/use. It was fine last week, both wheels turn very easy so something is causing it to be
unusable , The front brake lever works normal.
I replaced the front pads about a year ago and the rear pads about 6 months ago, Every thing has been working fine until now.
I need to get this fixed soon, Right now I am using only the front brake.

=========================================================
Well I guess I will start my rebuilding the left master cylinder, Where do you folks get your parts ?
Phil

Hi rvtips.

Rear Master Cylinder seal set Honda Reflex 250

Copy and paste the line below into Ebay. not sure why the hyperlink didn't copy over.
New Rear Brake Master Cylinder Rebuild Kit PS250 NSS250 Reflex Big Ruckus #I22 G (Fits: Honda Reflex Sport 250)

Hope this helps.

Be safe, be seen!

Thanks

rvtips wrote:

Thanks

================================================
Well I have done some more checking, If I hold the L/rear brake lever and crack the rear bleeder there is NO fluid, If I crack the brake line at the L/rear brake master Cyc. There is fluid coming out?
The park brake cable is free and if I push it on the rear tire will stop. The rear wheel spins freely.
Does this sound like a bad L/master Cyc.?
I have the muffler off and I don't see any thing that could bind the rear Cyc.
I just don't know where to go next.
Phil

Hi rvtips.

A couple of quick ??
1) how far are you Cracking the bleeder open... 1/4 turn 1/2 turn ??
2) are you then squeezing the Master?
3) have you stripped down the rear caliper to check the state of it's seal and how much corrosion is there on the pistons

Hope this helps.
Awaiting your reply.

Be safe, be seen!

I only cracked the bleeders about 1/4 turn.
I have not remover the rear cyc yet,I am going to loosen the rear brake hose to see if any fluid comes out first.
I will let you know.
Thanks Phil

When you pull the left/rear lever, does the brake act on the front wheel?
It should.
If it does not, your problem is further upstream, in or around the splitter/delay valve system.
If it does, then your problem is likely your rear caliper.

smellybeard wrote:

When you pull the left/rear lever, does the brake act on the front wheel?
It should.
If it does not, your problem is further upstream, in or around the splitter/delay valve system.
If it does, then your problem is likely your rear caliper.

=======================================================
No there is no drag on the front wheel.
How do I check the splitter/delay valve system?
This all happened over night, One day it was fine the next no rear brake and the Left brake lever is very hard when you try to apply .
Phil

Well, I'm glad you discovered that before you went attacking the rear brake caliper.
I don't know what's really up and I've never had 'the middle' of the rear brake system asunder.

Go slowly. Don't believe everything 'we' tell you. I've been know to be terribly wrong.

Do you have the workshop manual?

From the manual...
"Note that you may feel strong resistance on the rear (combined) brake lever during pumping to bleed air from the caliper. This symptom is caused by the delay valve function."

Where it is, it doesn't say. Up the front somewhere, I assume.

smellybeard wrote:

From the manual...
"Note that you may feel strong resistance on the rear (combined) brake lever during pumping to bleed air from the caliper. This symptom is caused by the delay valve function."

Where it is, it doesn't say. Up the front somewhere, I assume.

=========================================================
Well I did a bit more checking, When holding the L/rear brake lever there is some stopping of the Front wheel after a second or two ?
With the L/rear brake lever held, I cracked the rear caliper bleeder and even with it open a full turn no fluid. A small amount from the brake hose at the caliper.
I do have the manual so I will read up on the combo valve.
Phil

rvtips wrote:

smellybeard wrote:

From the manual...
"Note that you may feel strong resistance on the rear (combined) brake lever during pumping to bleed air from the caliper. This symptom is caused by the delay valve function."

Where it is, it doesn't say. Up the front somewhere, I assume.

=========================================================
Well I did a bit more checking, When holding the L/rear brake lever there is some stopping of the Front wheel after a second or two ?
With the L/rear brake lever held, I cracked the rear caliper bleeder and even with it open a full turn no fluid. A small amount from the brake hose at the caliper.
I do have the manual so I will read up on the combo valve.
Phil

=========================================================
today I removed the rear brake line at the rear wheel cyc. and held the L/rear brake lever and there is NO fluid coming out of the hose. I do get some fluid from the L/rear cyc. when I hold the lever.
Looking at the manual it looks like the problem is in the delay valve, It looks like the whole front end must come off to get to it?

When holding the L/rear brake lever there is some stopping of the Front wheel after a second or two ?

It's not something I've had any experience of and I'm mainly a cable operated drum brake guy. I just had trouble bleeding my rear brake circuit and remembered the existence of the pesky delay valve. You need better guidance than I can offer.

The delay valve, I assume, splits off the hydraulic pressure and delays the operation of the front braking action which the left lever exerts.

I assume it'll need a comprehensive bleed now, so there's little to be lost taking the rear caliper out and servicing the seals. I'd still be careful about taking things apart but worrying about doing it might be more effort than tackling it head on.

This problem is getting me down.
Today I removed the front cover and now I see that the brake lines go to the ABS unit before the front caliper, not sure how to test the delay valve .Could my problem be in the ABS unit?
Before I removed the brake line going to the top of the delay valve I cracked each of the brake hoses at the front caliper one at a time and when I pulled the rear brake lever some fluid did come out of each one.
So how is the fluid supposed to get to the rear brake caliper??
Phil

The Silverwing does use some parts that are common to the VFR800 in the braking system. The diagrams for the VFR show the rear brake master connecting directly to the rear caliper; the delay valve is on a T so the delay only affects the front caliper, not the rear. I'm not guaranteeing the SW is the same, but I would be surprised if it is not. If they are the same, then any issue at the rear caliper is unlikely to be related to the delay valve.




The only item between the rear brake master and the rear caliper should be the ABS unit. These should flow freely in both directions but it does sound like you have a problem in there. I would expect that with the brake hose detached at the caliper, you should be able to pump fluid through the ABS and out the open line with little or no resistance.

Given you are this far down the rabbit hole, it would make sense to dismantle the rear caliper and give the pistons and seals a good clean and maybe replacement.

After a bit of research a few more facts have come to light.
The Honda Reflex 250 was sold in 2 forms state side apparently and marked as NNS250 and NNS250A
the A denoting ABS.
rvtips can you confirm which model you have please, it should be marked up under the seat as NNS250 or NNS250A, also the obvious external difference on the wheels with a pulsar ring with loads of cutouts in it and a wired sensor at the axel of each wheel.
If you do not have ABS then your lack of rear braking is down to the rear caliper(strip and rebuild)
If you do have ABS the problem will be the feed to the rear caliper from the ABS unit, and possibly the caliper itself.
Awaiting your reply.

Hope this helps.

Be safe, be seen!

JohnyC wrote:

After a bit of research a few more facts have come to light.
The Honda Reflex 250 was sold in 2 forms state side apparently and marked as NNS250 and NNS250A
the A denoting ABS.
rvtips can you confirm which model you have please, it should be marked up under the seat as NNS250 or NNS250A, also the obvious external difference on the wheels with a pulsar ring with loads of cutouts in it and a wired sensor at the axel of each wheel.
If you do not have ABS then your lack of rear braking is down to the rear caliper(strip and rebuild)
If you do have ABS the problem will be the feed to the rear caliper from the ABS unit, and possibly the caliper itself.
Awaiting your reply.

Hope this helps.

Be safe, be seen!

======================================================
Yes It does have ABS.
Like I said before, There is NO fluid at the rear caliper either at the bleeder or when I loosen the brake hose at the caliper. The brake fluid so far looks pretty good.

Hi rvtips, thanks for the quick reply.

As you have ABS I agree completely with Terry Smith that your problem has to be the ABS unit.
Both the rear caliper and the delay valve are after the ABS unit flow.
Locate the rear caliper feed from the ABS and temp disconnect, then apply the rear brake, fluid should run out, if it doesn't.... well you know the next move.... down the rabbit hole you must go, but when testing you might even get a dollop of **** pop out(happy days).
If the brake fluid flows when the pipe is disconnected, it can only be the pipe to the rear caliper has a blockage.

Hope this helps.

Be safe, be seen!

JohnyC wrote:

Hi rvtips, thanks for the quick reply.

As you have ABS I agree completely with Terry Smith that your problem has to be the ABS unit.
Both the rear caliper and the delay valve are after the ABS unit flow.
Locate the rear caliper feed from the ABS and temp disconnect, then apply the rear brake, fluid should run out, if it doesn't.... well you know the next move.... down the rabbit hole you must go, but when testing you might even get a dollop of **** pop out(happy days).
If the brake fluid flows when the pipe is disconnected, it can only be the pipe to the rear caliper has a blockage.

Hope this helps.

Be safe, be seen!

===================================================
Well JohnyC I think you are right !
Now is there a way to bypass the ABS unit ?
The hose from the rear master cylinder is right next to the steel line that goes to the rear wheel cylinder, But they are different fittings ?
I have never felt the ABS work in all the 16 years that I have been riding this Reflex.

Hi rvtips.

Confirm if I am right first, then we can talk more.
Have you used the ABS diagnostics procedure as set out in the workshop manual to check what is not working on it ?
It can seem a little daunting but read everything twice and you'll do fine!
The ABS unit is part of your EMS (engine management system) and must be active for your bike to fire up.

Hope this helps.
Be safe, be seen!

JohnyC wrote:

Hi rvtips.

Confirm if I am right first, then we can talk more.
Have you used the ABS diagnostics procedure as set out in the workshop manual to check what is not working on it ?
It can seem a little daunting but read everything twice and you'll do fine!
The ABS unit is part of your EMS (engine management system) and must be active for your bike to fire up.

Hope this helps.
Be safe, be seen!

=========================================================
I have read the manual and in the 80 and 90 I worked for JEEP THEY HAVE A LOT Of PROBLEMS WITH THE abs. like the Reflex and the Jeeps is says in the manual that if there is a problem with the ABS it will not work but the brakes will work normally..
So I will try to find a rubber brake hose that I can run from the L/master cyc. yo the rear brake caliper.
Thanks for the help.

An progress?
Did you loosen the pipe between the ABS and delay valve to positively confirm which it is?

Don't skip over this.

smellybeard wrote:

An progress?
Did you loosen the pipe between the ABS and delay valve to positively confirm which it is?

Don't skip over this.

=============================================================
Yes I did and no fluid, I should have the new hose soon, After I get I will let you all know how it turned out.
Thanks for checking.

rvtips wrote:

The rear brake lever has been working normal for the last 18 years, but now over night it is very hard to pull/use. It was fine last week, both wheels turn very easy so something is causing it to be
unusable , The front brake lever works normal.
I replaced the front pads about a year ago and the rear pads about 6 months ago, Every thing has been working fine until now.
I need to get this fixed soon, Right now I am using only the front brake.

============================================================
Well folks I am happy to say I now have rear brakes !
I ordered a 8FT brake hose to go from the L/rear brake master cylinder to the rear wheel cylinder.
This let me by by pass the ABS unit.
I want to thank everyone that help me.
Phillip

I'm not sure that's a safe solution.
One of the front pots is connected via the delay valve to the rear/left master cylinder. If you run a new line from the front/left master directly to the rear, you'll lose that. You'll also alter the relationship between the volume of the master cylinder and the total volume of the pots in the calipers. This will probably make the lever feel wooden and horrible.

smellybeard wrote:

I'm not sure that's a safe solution.
One of the front pots is connected via the delay valve to the rear/left master cylinder. If you run a new line from the front/left master directly to the rear, you'll lose that. You'll also alter the relationship between the volume of the master cylinder and the total volume of the pots in the calipers. This will probably make the lever feel wooden and horrible.

===========================================================
So far it feels fine and stops good.I have had many motor cycles without the linken system.

My experience is of a much more extreme reconfiguration. My 1981 Moto Guzzi SP was built with the front lever connected to one front caliper and the pedal to one front and the identical rear. The previous owner didn't like it and re-piped it to have two both front calipers operated by the front lever and the rear by the pedal. The end result is that the lever comes back nearly to the bar and the pedal barely deflects at all and has no feel whatsoever. What made it even worse is that as it's a sidecar rig and has leading link forks, the front wheel was incredibly easy to lock up with one finger.

Still, be careful of it. It's not the way it was designed to work.

rvtips wrote:

The rear brake lever has been working normal for the last 18 years, but now over night it is very hard to pull/use. It was fine last week, both wheels turn very easy so something is causing it to be
unusable , The front brake lever works normal.
I replaced the front pads about a year ago and the rear pads about 6 months ago, Every thing has been working fine until now.
I need to get this fixed soon, Right now I am using only the front brake.

=========================================================
well today I put it all back together not an easy job.
Took it for a ride and everything works like it should and to my surprize even the ABS light went out?
Phil