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 fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment

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Loosemarbles
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sidco10
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PostSubject: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19, 2019 1:25 pm

Hi all about to fit taper roller bearings to the headstock (if it ever stops raining here !!), how do you adjust the bearings once in ? judging by previous posts I've looked at, the Honda fish scale method is not the accurate way with taper bearings? I have a home made stem nut and adjuster ring tool but i can only get torque adjustment on the stem nut tool...any suggestions cheers k
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19, 2019 2:42 pm

You need to torque up the ring nut to set the taper bearings bud, fish scale method deffo does not work (been there tried that)
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19, 2019 2:51 pm

See this thread bud .........

https://www.silverwing600.com/t9331-tapered-steering-head-bearings?highlight=steering+stem+bearings


TBH, there is very little benifit to be had fitting tapered roller over OEM ball races
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sidco10
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19, 2019 2:57 pm

Thanks again Bern,i misread that the first time i thought it was the stem nut a 30 ft lb of torque Cheers K
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19, 2019 3:03 pm

Pleasure bud Smile For torqueing purposes you could make a tubular tool as in this thread ( https://www.silverwing600.com/t7791-steering-stem-nut-tool?highlight=steering+stem+bearings ) but instead of a 'tommy bar' weld a disc with a square hole to accomodate the wrench
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sidco10
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19, 2019 3:10 pm

Thanks again Bern I'll be calling my mate again for welding mods he's going to be sick of the sight of me soon haha ,Cheers k
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 19, 2019 3:24 pm

No probs bud, we're all here to help each other when possible Cool
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 20, 2019 12:57 am

The "fish scale" method of pre-loading the head bearings worked well on seversl Goldwings I had in my previous shop. If I remember the proper pre-load on the GL was 3lbs pull at the edge of the triple tree. I usually snugged the head nut up good and set the 3lb pull (or what ever the weight was) and then turned the handlebars back and forth while the front wheel was still off the ground. After a few swings the bearings seemed to settle a bit and need just a wee bit more torque on the head bearing nut. Make sure the bearing is well packed with grease and wipe a thin coating on the bearing seats that are pressed into the head.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeWed May 18, 2022 12:39 pm

I've got my steering stem off because the head bearings were giving me that 'dented' feeling.

I've read the various topics on this subject and I thought I'd share my experience and ask a question.

I had my local welder to make the oddball eight sided nut socket and that worked fine to get the top end off. I used my 70cm threaded bar to remove the lower shell form the top of the head pipe, using it as a drift. No problems.

Here's what I used to remove the upper shell from the bottom of the head pipe:

fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment Lower_10

The washer just about fitted into 'that gap' just above the upper shell. Again, I used it as a drift and after careful circular tapping motion, out it came. The biggest hitch was the lower shell which sits at the base of the stem. I ended up using my local shop to 'cut' it off, as I don't have a dremel or any such tool. Forget using a chisel or similar tool as stated in the manual.

I've done some Googling and now I can't decide whether to use roller bearings as replacements. I gather that 30lb/ft torque is the suggested setting for the pre-load with roller bearings and if this is so, does the oddball stem locknut still require the 54lb/ft as stated in the manual?

Any thoughts and experiences on types of head bearings on the SW would also be read with great enthusiasm.
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeWed May 18, 2022 2:21 pm

I’ve noticed a few posts on various forums regarding changing to tapered roller bearings in place of OEM ball bearings. Those posts seem to comment that those tapered bearing failed too soon. However those are the posts which have stuck with me. But I don’t ever recall anyone posting, “Hey I changed to tapered roller bearings 11 years ago and they are still great”.

IIRC you have a 2001 model. How long have those OEM bearings last?
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeWed May 18, 2022 2:41 pm

I take your point. My SW has 37000 miles on it but there is evidence of tampering by a previous owner. Who knows?

Considering the smaller wheels on the SW, the taper bearings seem to be more resiliant to multi-directional impact from rough road surfaces and pot holes.

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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeWed May 18, 2022 10:04 pm

I feel tapered bearings are better. Larger surface area for bearings. Older cars used them remember drum brakes and those small bearings that they road on.

Seating the races is important then just a little torque to set them. Dirt bikes use them and they take a lot of abuse much more than street bike and they last. Balls Vs tapered?
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Terry Smith
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeWed May 18, 2022 11:52 pm

I've certainly fitted tapered rollers to every bike that needed new head bearings (RF900, VFR800 x 2, ST1100, VTR1000F and Swing). And I've never regretted doing so. I completely agree that they are more sensitive to small changes in torque. I tend to deliberately overtighten initially, work the steering back and forth to seat the parts, and then back the nut off. They usually end up not much more than hand tight, at the point where all freeplay is taken up and no excess friction is introduced. I would expect the tapered roller to be more forgiving of being a bit loose compared to a ball bearing. If you overtighten them, the result is quite amusing as some of the self-centring qualities of the steering disappear, and you end up over-correcting, making a smooth line through a corner surprisingly hard to do.
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeThu May 19, 2022 3:58 am

I remember those old brake drum roller bearings...tighten them to a stop and then loosen by one 'flat' of the castellated nut, or just enough to insert the split pin.

I would feel happier with some actual torque numbers though. I intent to make a 3/8 square in the tool kit suspension adjuster tool so as to use my low range torque wrench.

Whatever the setting, does the locknut still need the 54lb/ft?
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeThu May 19, 2022 2:46 pm

After much research I decided to toss a coin to decide. Heads = Balls, Tales = Rollers. Tales won it so I've ordered some roller bearings. The dimensions match but I guess it's all down to quality.

I'm going to change the fork oil while they're off the bike along with seals and dust covers. I'm hoping that this procedure will eliminate the front end shaking (not wobbling) at high speed. I'll post my findings for posterity.

BTW, don't you just hate it when your 'Ole Gal' looks like this and the weather is so good?

fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment Poor_o10
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeThu May 19, 2022 9:04 pm

20-year-old SW hope that oil was changed at some point? If not, it's going to be nasty dark and full of metal from the bushings. I'd do a complete fork rebuild and take it all apart and install new bushings.
They are cheap something like $ 30 US. for all 4. Rabbit hole is deep on that old SW.
Ride ON.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeFri May 20, 2022 8:19 am

I changed the fork oil about 4 years ago and even then, the old oil which came out looked OK, so it had been maintained to some degree. I just thought I would change it again as the forks are off.

My new head bearings have arrived from Pyramid Parts (UK) based in Scotland. The bearings are made in Japan and the dust seals are 'Clark Seals' which look like a reputable company based in Oklahoma. So hopefully I've bought decent quality stuff. Naturally, the bearings are coated in a thin oil which leads me to a question.

Do I have to thoroughly degrease them before applying the bearing grease during fitting???

fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment New_be10
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeFri May 20, 2022 8:49 pm

You know the answer clean them and repack with grease of your choice. It's not a high-speed bearing so pick the best water-proof grease and pack them.

Lock nut same torque just be sure nothing rotates to tighten preload. Like Terry said snug it rotate forks back it off and tighten a little.
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeSat May 21, 2022 4:26 pm

I tried to adhere to the manual with regards to grease and I came up with a Triple QX EP2. Why Honda would recommend a 'Extra Pressure' grease I don't know. Sounds like overkill.

Turns out the fork springs were inserted upside down, that must have been me putting them back the way I found them when I first changed the oil.

I reckon when all this is done, my SW will be floating on air Basketball
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeMon May 23, 2022 12:17 pm

Loosemarbles wrote:
I tried to adhere to the manual with regards to grease and I came up with a Triple QX EP2. Why Honda would recommend a 'Extra Pressure' grease I don't know. Sounds like overkill.

Turns out the fork springs were inserted upside down, that must have been me putting them back the way I found them when I first changed the oil.

I reckon when all this is done, my SW will be floating on air Basketball

Speaking of floating on air, I have experimented with 5,10, and 15 weights of fork oil in an attempt to quieten the jarring in the handlebars.  Alas, I believe that the front end of the Swing is just too light for inertia to absorb the bumps well.  When I had the 5 wt. oil in the forks I truly did experience a floating sensation at times.  I didn't like that and it seemed to be dangerous so I went back to 10 wt. oil.  The 15 wt. oil just made the problem worse. I wish I felt young enough for another Goldwing!!

If wishes were fishes we'd all swim in riches.
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeMon May 23, 2022 12:43 pm

You must have read my mind 1Wingman1. I have been wondering about using a different oil when I rebuild the forks and front end, but your comments are drawing me back to 10w.

It will be interesting to see whether changing my head bearings, (loosemarbles?) and putting the springs back in the right way up along with new oil, will bring my front end up to spec. Question

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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeThu May 26, 2022 1:10 pm

Well, the Pyramid Parts didn't work out. The stem dust seal didn't fit properly and a couple of the rollers on the lower bearing were dented. By some boring complication, I ended up with two sets but only paid for one...so I got a second shot. The second dust seal still didn't fit but the bearings were OK.

I inserted the upper and lower races into the frame. I decided to chance the dust seal and proceeded to put on the lower bearing to the stem. It started off OK but it became very solid about half way down. The bearing dimensions matched perfectly but It didn't feel right. Yes, I was using a screwdriver to drive the bearing down but we don't talk about that. I then noticed some tiny metal particles in the bearing rollers. I'm done for  Neutral

I reckon I can get the new bearing off the stem OK but I now have to find a way of removing the new races from the frame. The new races don't leave that 'lip' which OEM ones do. I'm going to revert to the OEM ball bearings (YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE)....I know.

I'm still waiting for my new fork seals and covers to arrive so there's no time lost, just a great PITA!
Surprisingly, my usual OEM supplier has the new bearings and dust covers in stock  Shocked

fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment Mistak10
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Terry Smith
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeThu May 26, 2022 4:50 pm

Sounds like a PITA indeed. I've only used Pyramid Parts fork seals before and I wasn't happy with those. OEM, SKF or Touratech have all been great. For the bearings, I've installed 6 sets from Allballs and never had an issue with any.

To get rid of fork jarring, installing Racetech Cartridge Emulators and 15W oil would be a good step in the right direction, as are stiffer springs.
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeThu May 26, 2022 5:08 pm

Terry Smith wrote:
(Snip) To get rid of fork jarring, installing Racetech Cartridge Emulators and 15W oil would be a good step in the right direction, as are stiffer springs.

Aw jeez Terry. There you go again with that high tech Cartridge Emulators stuff. As effective as they might be isn’t there some bodge we of the low budget persuasion might do to effect some similar upgrade? Something between bone stock and RaceTech?

Stefano Bonacasa’s or zxr212’s fork spring mods are effective and a lot less expensive than Hyperpro’s. But what about doing something to the OEM cartridges, (51440-MCT-003 Seat, Pipe in Honda speak)?
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeThu May 26, 2022 5:19 pm

Loosemarbles,

I have had ownership in electric motor repair shops and had much to learn about bearings.  Some thoughts:

1.  They are precision devices.  There is very little clearance between the balls and the races. The shaft of a small motor might be .0001" larger than bearing I.D. (No room for error there).

2.  Everything about ball or roller bearings is highly hardened  but races can still be stretched or warped  such as when you force it over a damaged area.  That will squeeze the balls resulting in binding, squealing, or extra heat.

3.  We very often cause damage to bearings lands and wherever the metal is raised it can usually be removed with the edge of a good metal file.  If you make a dent the metal from the dent was pushed outward and must be filed down.  Picture the raised sides of a meteor strike.  It is better to file too much than too little. Common sense is always needed.  Machine shops have more sophisticated and expensive methods than we do but plod along we must.

4.  Ditch that screwdriver and use pipe to drive bearings.  Pressing of bearings is best.  Inertia is your friend but not always where bearing installation is involved.

5.  Cleanliness is extremely important.

6.  If you dented a roller it must not have been hardened to begin with. Good quality roller bearings are many times stronger than ball bearings.

7.  Remember the law here is OEM, OEM, OEM or you could get into trouble in several ways.
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Terry Smith
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeThu May 26, 2022 7:09 pm

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
Terry Smith wrote:
(Snip) To get rid of fork jarring, installing Racetech Cartridge Emulators and 15W oil would be a good step in the right direction, as are stiffer springs.

Aw jeez Terry. There you go again with that high tech Cartridge Emulators stuff. As effective as they might be isn’t there some bodge we of the low budget persuasion might do to effect some similar upgrade? Something between bone stock and RaceTech?

Stefano Bonacasa’s or zxr212’s fork spring mods are effective and a lot less expensive than Hyperpro’s. But what about doing something to the OEM cartridges, (51440-MCT-003 Seat, Pipe in Honda speak)?

Ye cannae change the laws of Physics, Captain!

The Swing has damper rod forks and that is the limitation. The damping is generated by flow through drilled orifices in the rod, and both rebound and compression work this way. A check valve in the fork tube allows flow through both sets of ports on compression, and just the smaller upper holes for rebound.

A softer ride needs less compression damping when you hit a decent bump, and you could drill out the compression ports in the rod larger or use lighter oil. Then you will get a marshmellowy mushy ride that won't feel too connected, and with lighter oil you also lose what little rebound damping that you had.

The emulators allow the compression damping to be tuned separately to rebound (although both are affected by oil viscosity). The emulator has a small fixed port to limit fork dive in braking and provide a stable ride, and then faster oil flow can push open a sprung valve to relieve excess force when you hit a bigger bump.

You can find these for US$135 if you look carefully. There are some cheaper Chinese knock-offs as well on eBay and if they are direct copies they could be OK but I don't want to be the guinea pig. YSS make a similar product as well.

They pay you back every time you ride. Money spent on the right suspension mods always makes sense to me.
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeThu May 26, 2022 8:57 pm

Um… You could use a Dremel to cut the o.d. of the old bearing race. That’d relieve the tension. Then disassemble the bearing and use that dremel’d race atop the heated new bearing to drive it onto the steering stem or up into the head stock. The same would go for the old bearing i.d. That’d insure that things were square. My 2¢ opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeFri May 27, 2022 9:16 am


That's kinda my plan. I'm waiting for my Dremel wheels to arrive today, then make sure I get right Dremel to accept them. Even Dremel have different chucks and shanks!!

I'm still convinced that having new head bearings, new seals, oil and having the springs in the right way up, will improve my ride.
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeMon May 30, 2022 2:06 pm

I bought a Dremel...WOW!, how did I ever live without one of these things?

Anyhow, I cut the old bearing races out of the frame and began my adventure to begin the rebuild. First obstacle; getting the lower bearing race onto the steering stem. NOPE! In brief, my steering stem is now with the Honda shop for them to fit it. I expected them to have the necessary 'press' to insert the bearing race but the mechanic guy there was talking about freezing the stem and heating the bearing in order to get in on.

Now I'm scared! I'm not of fan of this process but the guy assured me they would get it fitted OK.This has been the most awkward task of all the work I've done on my SW, and I've done quite a bit. That eight sided nut to get the stem off was the easy bit  Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 11, 2023 5:23 pm

Ditto that for Pyramid Parts Roller Bearings the bottom seal did not fit properly for me and hence the premature failure of the head bearings , just over 2 years!

I've just done a little vid of how I changed my steering head bearings and will post it up on YT soon, gone with Honda Ball Bearings this time and yes straight away you notice everything fits perfectly.

Well Done Honda!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 15, 2023 8:10 am

Loosemarbles wrote:
You must have read my mind 1Wingman1. I have been wondering about using a different oil when I rebuild the forks and front end, but your comments are drawing me back to 10w.


I had my fork seals replaced and the shop used 10 weight oil (what Honda calls for) anyway it gave a terrible ride very jolting even going over a small road imperfection. I had them switch it for 15 weight and it is much better! Perhaps it is because I weigh 240+ pounds? Anyway for me at least 15 weight wins and it has been two years.
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 15, 2023 8:49 am

GHM-PM wrote:
Loosemarbles wrote:
You must have read my mind 1Wingman1. I have been wondering about using a different oil when I rebuild the forks and front end, but your comments are drawing me back to 10w.


I had my fork seals replaced and the shop used 10 weight oil (what Honda calls for) anyway it gave a terrible ride very jolting even going over a small road imperfection. I had them switch it for 15 weight and it is much better! Perhaps it is because I weigh 240+ pounds? Anyway for me at least 15 weight wins and it has been two years.

Not to further contribute to hijacking this “steering head bearing” topic, but I’ve just completed changing the fork oil in my ‘09.

I’ve had HyperPro springs along with their 20 wt fork oil since I took ownership of this Silverwing. I’ve found that the ride is quite harsh and also downright jarring on some of our local pot holes.

So I changed the fork oil to 15 wt and have been very impressed with the results. Same roads, much smoother rides.
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Johnbil09
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 15, 2023 10:11 am

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
GHM-PM wrote:
Loosemarbles wrote:
You must have read my mind 1Wingman1. I have been wondering about using a different oil when I rebuild the forks and front end, but your comments are drawing me back to 10w.


I had my fork seals replaced and the shop used 10 weight oil (what Honda calls for) anyway it gave a terrible ride very jolting even going over a small road imperfection. I had them switch it for 15 weight and it is much better! Perhaps it is because I weigh 240+ pounds? Anyway for me at least 15 weight wins and it has been two years.

Not to further contribute to hijacking this “steering head bearing” topic, but I’ve just completed changing the fork oil in my ‘09.

I’ve had HyperPro springs along with their 20 wt fork oil since I took ownership of this Silverwing. I’ve found that the ride is quite harsh and also downright jarring on some of our local pot holes.

So I changed the fork oil to 15 wt and have been very impressed with the results. Same roads, much smoother rides.
I’ll soon be changing the springs out and they gave me a quart of 20 wt oil,is it regular motor oil or is it made especially for the forks, 
The main reason I changed the springs out was to get rid of a bounce I get when I accelerate the front comes up and then settles back down after the first bounce and even when hitting a uneven surface on the road when your at speed it feels like the front bottoms out,I just figured the 20 yr old springs were just tired ,I’ll keep switching to a thinner oil if I find the ride too hard,I’m city dweller so there’s plenty of divots in the streets around here to test it on


Ride Safely
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 15, 2023 12:35 pm

I'm sure tired springs account for a harsh ride on older SWs. I'm tempted to try 15w oil as it seems to be good compromise between 20w and 10w. My SW rides much more smoothly from the front end when I've got my Girlie on the back, or should I call her my Biker Chick?..or my Bird?

She doesn't mind which term I use.
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PostSubject: Re: fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment   fitting taper roller bearings to headstock and adjustment I_icon_minitime

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