Ongoing Engine Stall

Hello all,

re: FSC600/A 2013 Silver Wing ABS bought new off lot now at 15,000 miles.

Sorry for the lengthy description of my stall problem, but I think it helps for you (all) to have some history...

I had posted on August 27 regarding an engine stall problem. I came to admit to myself that I needed to do my own maintenance and could not rely on a mechanic to do it for me. (They charged me $65 to run it in the shop for an hour or two without a stall.) Anyways, that was a good lesson learned. Thanks to the folks in this forum, I'm becoming my own mechanic.

Since the initial stall problem began, about 5-6 months ago, I had struggled to figure out what was causing the intermittent stalling. To eliminate potential problems, I have done the following:

1) replaced the spark plugs with NGK Iridium IX CR8EHIX-9 Spark Plugs # 3797 (http://tinyurl.com/y8eyoq6w). Torqued to spec per Honda Service Manual. (Not being my own mechanic yet, I replaced the originals late at 14,500.)

2) replaced air filter and thoroughly cleaned surrounding areas, etc. (Also replaced this later than spec'd in the service manual.)

3) ran 4.2 ozs. of Techron engine cleaner per product instructions.

4) removed left side panel and re-seated both the black and grey data cable plugs.

5) topped up coolant with Honda Pro HP coolant to upper line level.

Once all of this was done, I though I had surely found the problem and felt secure to take it on a few long and demanding rides through some of the outer canyon roads near where I live -- no stalls through at least a good 250 miles. Thought for sure that my new mechanical skills had solved the stalling problem by performing a few maintenance jobs.

You know what I'm leading up to, don't you? Today, after a few errand rides in the area, it STALLED 2 TIMES! **** (excuse my French), but I am becoming frustrated with what the problem could be. Is it the fuel pump? The stalling seemed to vanish for at least one week after the above maintenance was done. Today, the stall problem continues unresolved. Darned!!

The first time it stalled today, I was in my driveway about to leave. It would not start. I continued using the starter several times before it finally turned over -- took about 15 seconds. I found that pulling the accelerator (a little) seemed to help get it started again.

Sounds like the fuel pump to me, but what do you all think?  I am lost and don't know what to consider next. I'm reluctant to take it to my usual mechanic because I've lost confidence in their ability to troubleshoot this intermittent stall problem.

Thanks in advance for any feedback or suggestions you might have to offer.

Steve

3) ran 4.2 ozs. of Techron engine cleaner per product instructions. <<>> You could have put the entire contents of one bottle in for aa real good clean up dose.

Hmm, ya think Fuel Pump, huh? Um, I'm kinda at a loss here, but just grabbing at straws I'd suggest checking the air screws synchronization (balance) on the Throttle Body. See p 5-103 of FSM. For that you'll need a DIY manometer. A couple of guys here have brewed up their own simple ones so check the Search function.

And while it's highly improbable given yours is a 2013 it might be the fuel pressure regulator (p.5-102). A ~$42 part and easy enough to replace. Though I would think that if the FPR was defective you'd be experiencing the problem continually.

Both these are functions of fuel delivery.

SteveSilverWing wrote:

It would not start. I continued using the starter several times before it finally turned over -- took about 15 seconds. I found that pulling the accelerator (a little) seemed to help get it started again.

Do you mean you were pushing the starter several times before the engine cranked over,
or,
Do you mean you were pushing the starter several times before the engine fired & ran

When it does run, how is the tickover ? is it at all erratic ?

Can you look at the connector for the lamba sensor (exhaust) & see how many wires it has please (mine is too old to have one)

More question, does this happen only after the engine is completely at operating temps and has been ridden for a while? Does this happen on a restart after a run and while the engine is HOT.

The Bern wrote:

SteveSilverWing wrote:

It would not start. I continued using the starter several times before it finally turned over -- took about 15 seconds. I found that pulling the accelerator (a little) seemed to help get it started again.

Do you mean you were pushing the starter several times before the engine cranked over,
or,
Do you mean you were pushing the starter several times before the engine fired & ran

When it does run, how is the tickover ? is it at all erratic ?

Can you look at the connector for the lamba sensor (exhaust) & see how many wires it has please (mine is too old to have one)

Hi The Bern,

I meant I was pushing the starter several times before the engine "fired & ran."  When it does finally run, the engine runs smoothly as if nothing had happened.  (Not sure what tickover means but would like to learn.) I'm going to look at the lamba sensor -- do you mean the 0₂ sensor that connects to the muffler?

Thank you!

oldwingguy wrote:

More question, does this happen only after the engine is completely at operating temps and has been ridden for a while?  Does this happen on a restart after a run and while the engine is HOT.

Thanks OldWingGuy,

The stall can happen at any time whether the engine is hot or cold. Come to think of it, it usually happens after the engine has been run. Over the past week, I put on over 250 miles without one stall...until Wednesday when it stalled twice. Mystery to me but I'm determined to get to the bottom of it myself. I'd better because my life is riding on it.

oldwingguy wrote:

More question, does this happen only after the engine is completely at operating temps and has been ridden for a while?  Does this happen on a restart after a run and while the engine is HOT.

Are you sure that I should put the entire Techron bottom into the gas tank. As you undoubtedly know, it the product directions say to use 1 oz. per gallon. Our tanks hold 4.2 gallons; right? I'll do it if you're sure it won't mess anything up/

Thanks again for helping with this crazy intermittent problem.

Hi

Not sure if helps but I had exactly the same type of issue with an SV650S. Turned out to be a faulty coil. Was never traced by the garage as it tested ok but when the coil/ lead was eventually replaced the bike ran perfectly.
Mr Blobby

Mr Blobby wrote:

Hi

Not sure if helps but I had exactly the same type of issue with an SV650S.  Turned out to be a faulty coil. Was never traced by the garage as it tested ok but when the coil/ lead was eventually replaced the bike ran perfectly.
Mr Blobby

When you say "coils" are you referring to the stator area on the right side of the bike? I ask this because I had had a problem with an oil leak at the stator cover last year. If coils are in there, perhaps they were damaged when the mechanics removed and reattached with a silicone sealer (as was manufactured) that stator cover.

Thanks Mr Blobby, I am forever grateful. Any thought or consideration is helpful!

Steve

Hi.
I am talking about the ignition coil. It is what makes the plugs spark. It is located near the radiator and has long plug leads to the engine. In my case the fault was never found by electrical testing. The garage started replacing bits one at a time. When they changed the coil. It was fixed. Never had a problem again. Coils can be troublesome. Worth a look at.
Mr Blobby

Further to Mr Blobby, I do recall a friend having a somewhat similar stalling issue with his 2002 S/Wing several years ago. After a multitude of roadside breakdowns and service by several Honda shops the coil was eventually replaced. Several weeks later, after yet another roadside crisis, the coil wires & plug caps were replaced with OEM, Silverwing-specific wires & caps. That resolved the issue.

Somehow when the coil was replaced that shop also used the plug wires which were on the coil from the non-Silverwing showroom model the shop 'borrowed' to get my friend back on the road. As it turned out those other wires (& possibly the caps too) were not compatible with the Silverwing ignition. Possibly too much resistance in the wires --or maybe the caps were leaking. 

Here's a link to Partzilla's page: http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Scooter/2013/FSC600A+AC/WIRE+HARNESS/parts.html

Cliffyk has a couple of very informative posts regarding coil breakdown and plug caps.

Tim

SteveSilverWing wrote:

Hi The Bern,

I meant I was pushing the starter several times before the engine "fired & ran."  When it does finally run, the engine runs smoothly as if nothing had happened.  (Not sure what tickover means but would like to learn.) I'm going to look at the lamba sensor -- do you mean the 0₂ sensor that connects to the muffler?

Thank you!

Sorry transatlantic terminology Tickover = Idling rev's
Yep, O2 sensor, if they fail it can cause some stange symptoms

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

Further to Mr Blobby, I do recall a friend having a somewhat similar stalling issue with his 2002 S/Wing several years ago. After a multitude of roadside breakdowns and service by several Honda shops the coil was eventually replaced. Several weeks later, after yet another roadside crisis, the coil wires & plug caps were replaced with OEM, Silverwing-specific wires & caps. That resolved the issue.

Somehow when the coil was replaced that shop also used the plug wires which were on the coil from the non-Silverwing showroom model the shop 'borrowed' to get my friend back on the road. As it turned out those other wires (& possibly the caps too) were not compatible with the Silverwing ignition. Possibly too much resistance in the wires --or maybe the caps were leaking. 

Here's a link to Partzilla's page: http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Scooter/2013/FSC600A+AC/WIRE+HARNESS/parts.html

Cliffyk has a couple of very informative posts regarding coil breakdown and plug caps.

Tim

I will replace the ignition coil since this may be the source of the problem. This will be my first purchase with PartZilla.com but have visited their website before. At $53.88, how can I go wrong.

There are two entries on the website. The Service Manual in Chap. 19 P-6 is not exactly clear to the novice. Are their two coils, one for each cylinder, or one coil that manages both?

Thanks Tim for the link and your efforts to help me!

Steve

The Bern wrote:

SteveSilverWing wrote:

Hi The Bern,

I meant I was pushing the starter several times before the engine "fired & ran."  When it does finally run, the engine runs smoothly as if nothing had happened.  (Not sure what tickover means but would like to learn.) I'm going to look at the lamba sensor -- do you mean the 0₂ sensor that connects to the muffler?

Thank you!

Sorry transatlantic terminology Tickover = Idling rev's
Yep, O2 sensor, if they fail it can cause some stange symptoms

Thank you, Bern! I'll remember those trans-Atlantic terms for the future. Having not checked your profile, I didn't realize you lived in Telford, Shropshire, UK. Looked it up with Google maps -- lovely countryside. It must be a pleasure to ride along on your Swing in UK!

SteveSilverWing wrote:

I will replace the ignition coil since this may be the source of the problem.  This will be my first purchase with PartZilla.com but have visited their website before. At $53.88, how can I go wrong.

There are two entries on the website. The Service Manual in Chap. 19 P-6 is not exactly clear to the novice. Are their two coils, one for each cylinder, or one coil that manages both?

Thanks Tim for the link and your efforts to help me!

If you are going to the expense of replacing the coil also do yourself the favor of replacing the plug wires (two different part #s IIRC) AND the plug caps. The plug caps screw into the plug caps.

There is only one coil, it fires both plugs.

Not to confuse matters, but the one coil fires both plugs simultaneously. However because the pistons are 180° out of phase... Oh never mind.

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

SteveSilverWing wrote:

I will replace the ignition coil since this may be the source of the problem.  This will be my first purchase with PartZilla.com but have visited their website before. At $53.88, how can I go wrong.

There are two entries on the website. The Service Manual in Chap. 19 P-6 is not exactly clear to the novice. Are their two coils, one for each cylinder, or one coil that manages both?

Thanks Tim for the link and your efforts to help me!

If you are going to the expense of replacing the coil also do yourself the favor of replacing the plug wires (two different part #s IIRC) AND the plug caps. The plug caps screw into the plug caps.

There is only one coil, it fires both plugs.

Not to confuse matters, but the one coil fires both plugs simultaneously. However because the pistons are 180° out of phase... Oh never mind.

That was funny... "Oh never mind." But really I think I do understand how the pistons are 180° out of phase. One piston fires, then the other, and so on 180° apart from each other.

In all seriousness, I am very appreciative for your input, and that of others, too. Eventually, I'll get the whole maintenance situation under control and will share with other new riders in this forum.

SteveSilverWing wrote:

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

SteveSilverWing wrote:

I will replace the ignition coil since this may be the source of the problem.  This will be my first purchase with PartZilla.com but have visited their website before. At $53.88, how can I go wrong.

There are two entries on the website. The Service Manual in Chap. 19 P-6 is not exactly clear to the novice. Are their two coils, one for each cylinder, or one coil that manages both?

Thanks Tim for the link and your efforts to help me!

If you are going to the expense of replacing the coil also do yourself the favor of replacing the plug wires (two different part #s IIRC) AND the plug caps. The plug caps screw into the plug caps.

There is only one coil, it fires both plugs.

Not to confuse matters, but the one coil fires both plugs simultaneously. However because the pistons are 180° out of phase... Oh never mind.

That was funny... "Oh never mind." But really I think I do understand how the pistons are 180° out of phase. One piston fires, then the other, and so on 180° apart from each other.

In all seriousness, I am very appreciative for your input, and that of others, too. Eventually, I'll get the whole maintenance situation under control and will share with other new riders in this forum.

Hi Steve silver wing, I would suggest that you with the spark plug access cover removed, The engine running, That you grab each spark plug lead in the plug area, What you are looking for is an electrical leak, many Newbies unable to remove the plug wires use Pliers to pull the leads off the plugs. Damaging and cutting the insulation of the plug wires. If you do not receive a shock your boots and insulators are OK. If you find a bad wire I suggest you replace it when you order your coil.

Your Cylinders fire at 360 Degrees apart, Both your pistons reach top dead center at the same time. One being in the power stroke, The other being in the Valve overlap Stroke.

Your Ignition coil does not fire both cylinders simultaneously, If it did you would have a back fire at every revolution.

Steve, In order to eliminate your fuel system as a source of your problems, The fuel pressure regulator is at the right end of the fuel rack, Use a pressure gauge to establish that you have 34 pounds pressure at the regulator and on the fuel rack, If so you have eliminated the fuel pump and fuel filter and all other fuel system components. Pressure above 34 pounds returns to the fuel tank, If you would like you can rig up your Fuel pressure test gauge so that you can see it during bike operation, Temporarily taped to your handlebars. Since the fuel pump is inside the tank it is not easily reached and it is not an inexpensive part to replace. I have only replaced a few in many years of Silverwing service, Most of those were ruined by allowing the bike to repeatedly run out of gas and the pump continuing to run.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.

SteveSilverWing wrote:

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

SteveSilverWing wrote:

I will replace the ignition coil since this may be the source of the problem.  This will be my first purchase with PartZilla.com but have visited their website before. At $53.88, how can I go wrong.

There are two entries on the website. The Service Manual in Chap. 19 P-6 is not exactly clear to the novice. Are their two coils, one for each cylinder, or one coil that manages both?

Thanks Tim for the link and your efforts to help me!

If you are going to the expense of replacing the coil also do yourself the favor of replacing the plug wires (two different part #s IIRC) AND the plug caps. The plug caps screw into the plug caps.

There is only one coil, it fires both plugs.

Not to confuse matters, but the one coil fires both plugs simultaneously. However because the pistons are 180° out of phase... Oh never mind.

That was funny... "Oh never mind." But really I think I do understand how the pistons are 180° out of phase. One piston fires, then the other, and so on 180° apart from each other.

In all seriousness, I am very appreciative for your input, and that of others, too. Eventually, I'll get the whole maintenance situation under control and will share with other new riders in this forum.

Steve Silverwing, Steve your bike is equipped with a computer, An engine management control Module. Each time power is removed from this computer, It loses its memory. Restoring the memory can require as much as 200 miles of stop and go and high speed motoring for the Computer to relearn everything. The engine dying may be part of this relearning process. Each time you disconnect the battery, This process starts over. If you are going to continue Disconnecting the battery you need a battery supplemental power supply, Another 12 volt battery Alligator clamped onto your battery cables before you disconnect the bike battery. This prevents your computer losing its memory. If your starter does not run each time you push your start button with the brake lever depressed, The handlebar switch in the run position and the side stand up, Then your handlebar switch assembly is bad and is probably causing all the problems you are having. I understand that this is very aggravating, Spending money for parts that you do not need and replacing things unnecessarily. Please follow the instructions I have given you and you will be able to get your bike running correctly. That Handlebar switch is paramount in the operation of this bike and they have always been defective. Use the starting sequence I have written about before on these post's.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.

Lloyd,
Could your procedure cause the switch in the left hand brake to go bad the same way as the start switch?

Easyrider wrote:

Lloyd,
Could your procedure cause the switch in the left hand brake to go bad the same way as the start switch?

Easyrider, Not likely that the left brake light switch will fail, In the event it does, It is attached with one fastener and two slip on plugs and cost $12.00 and is a 5 minute job to replace. In my years experience using this starting method I personally have never had a failure, I have replaced a few on friends bikes over the years.

Happy motoring Lloyd 193.