Increased Performance

If you would Like more Performance out of your Silverwing, Without Spending any Money, You can do the Following. Next time You Have your Variator belt Cover off, Remove your Variator and Dissamble It. Check your weights for any That are not Round and replace those so that you have 8 nice round Weights. Use a Gram or Grain Scale to weigh one of your Weights, Once you have Accurately determined its Weight. By Carefully Drilling Out the Steel center of the weight reducing its Weight by 15%. A Lathe is the best way to accomplish this. Do this Carefully to all 8 weights. You will notice a remarkable improvement in your Performance, Comparable to a Foreign Manufactured variation without any of the Problems associated with that Expensive Thing. Your RPM's Will increase up until about 50 MPH at which point you will cruise at the same RPM's as Before. Should your Bike set a V Code on your Instrument Panel, Do not be Alarmed, Just reset the V Code and avoid that 50 MPH continous speed that Caused it to set. This Modification will use a Little more Fuel But the Increased Performance is worth it. Sometime your Bike Will lift the Front Wheel, When this Happens you have no Directional Control, Be Careful and Enjoy your Greatly improved Acceleration. Reducing your Weights more, Like 20% will give More Performance, Higher RPM's to 60MPH, Use More Gas, And result in More than a Half second in your 1/4 Mile Drag time. Replacing your Torque Spring with a Malossi White Torque Spring along with the above Modification will improve your 1/4 Mile by about a Second with no loss in top end and nice 70-75 Cruise. Happy Motoring lloyd193.

Or you could just replace your OEM rollers (which are sure to develop flat spots) with tried & true Dr Pulley sliders (aka "SR" or sliding roller weights) which have been shown to not wear out.

26gm or 24gm Dr Pulley sliders are very popular with members here.

Tim

PS: Gee Lloyd, I must have missed your post in the Introduction section. But Welcome anyway

Or buy another bike! Each time I change belt I replace rollers and sliders with OEM parts along with OEM belt. Has worked for me for the past 80,000 miles with 2 new SilverWings. = performance fine.

A half second in the quarter mile? Really? We are talking a SCOOTER here. Who cares LOL? I appreciate your thoughts but perhaps a Hayabusa is more in your line? I too use DR sliders and OEM belt and am perfectly happy with the performance from my portly (550 lbs) scooter!!! Oh and welcome to the forum! Everyone has their own ideas and here is a good place to share them.

My opinion?

I put 26 gram Dr Sliders in my 08 SWing. I didn't take it to the track before or after the installation but still love the performance. I don't know if I gained anything but I do know it has enough get up and go for me and I still get 50 mpg with it, give or take 1 mpg, depending how I rode it that tankful. It keeps up with the bigger bikes I ride with on the highway and some of them have more than twice the cc's I have. So I have no complaints.

I think IIloyd was just having some fun, you could just change the engine and put a jet engine in .

Or you could just ride the thing as it is, I'd have to be daft to buy a lathe, then a load of classes to learn how to use it, a big box of nice round variator weights to allow for the ones I'd inevitably cock up. I'd need a electric stand drill (and a hefty work bench to use it on), a drug dealers gram scale, and anything else I've missed.

Now this is a lot of coin I'd have to shell out, just for a little bit of extra performance I'd get for free on my bog standard Silver Wing just by being a bit more heavy on the throttle.

As the OP is hot humid Orlando where everyone seems to ride around in shorts, may I suggest an alternative cheaper performance tip. He shave his legs like the pro cycle racers do, those smooth legs offer less wind resistance and that half second over a quarter of a mile could be achieved by a quick run over with a new razor.

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

26gm or 24gm Dr Pulley sliders are very popular with members here.

I saw on the Dr Pulley web site that they recommend 24gm or 25gm for the 600 Silver Wing. I found 25gm sets on ebay and I'm thinking of buying them to fit when I replace the belt.

However, Meldrew's post about shaving the legs made me think about the decreased air resistance I might obtain by shaving off my moustache and beard?

Of course, shedding weight will make it faster and could also save me some money!

I've started on the 5-2 diet ----- less food = less shopping trips = save on fuel.

Turkish moustache wax will allow you to ride in all your sartorial splender. Bow ties, on the other hand, have been shown to increase drag coefficient by 3%

ROFLMSAO

As the OP is hot humid Orlando where everyone seems to ride around in shorts, may I suggest an alternative cheaper performance tip. He shave his legs like the pro cycle racers do, those smooth legs offer less wind resistance and that half second over a quarter of a mile could be achieved by a quick run over with a new razor.

Duluth Buck Naked under ware and a pair of flip flops and one could be ready for any good race Honest officer it's the latest in riding ware and they only weigh 25 grams.

The big question is: what are you going to do with that second you can shave off the quarter mile? :lol!:

gremlin wrote:

The big question is: what are you going to do with that second you can shave off the quarter mile? :lol!:

Maybe he gets to Heaven a second faster than anyone else

Improved Performance, Thanks for the Witty Replies Guys, I apologize for Teching over some of your Heads, Some Responders could Shave those Too. Happy Motoring Lloyd193.

lloyd193 wrote:

I apologize for Teching over some of your Heads

You'll not be teching over the heads of many on this forum. There's a lot of VERY clever guys on here. Myself, I was modifying, tuning and improving the performance of motorcycles and gokarts in the 60s, 70s and 80s but now that I'm retired I just enjoy the ride of a well made machine with a few like minded buddies.

I thought you were joking Lloyd, as it was hard to believe anyone would go to so much trouble, for so little improvement. If you intend to stay on this website expect some of us to doubt anyone being serious about such things.

Some of the People who Post here simply do not Appreciate High Performance, That is OK. But to Not take a Man seriously who can take a over Seventeen Second Seventy Two MPH. Dog Motorscooter and with a Little time and Knowledge make that Scooter Run 15.6 above 82 MPH from a Dead Start in a Quarter Mile is a Demonstration of Not Caring or a total Misunderstanding of Drag Racing. My Silver Wings Blow Harley Street Bikes off the Road, Beat them so Badly at the Drag Strip that they are Embarrassed. Gives Honda the Repetation of the Baddest Scooter Around, Makes me Feel good that Many of the Corvettes I compete Against Cannot Catch me Before the Timing Traps. I understand that many of you do not care and High Performance is not important to you. I again Apologize for Wasting your time with some of the Knowledge I have Gained in my 77 Years and From my Race Car and Bike Building Businesses I have Owned. Happy Motoring lloyd193.

Get used to it, if you don´t want to be the main stream. Have you heard the saying: "my way or no way"? But it´s your bike, so you´re allowed to do what ever you please as long as you follow the law and orders of your country. Anyhow, there´s loads of good advice on the forum and I appreciate that and it has helped me a lot.

Tina Turner: "nice and easy/nice and rough" ( even though she was´t singing about riding a scooter )

Okay Lloyd, you've kinda got my interest. So, from what you're posted here, am I to understand that what you've done is to install Malossi torque spring and reduce 28gm OEM vatiator weights by 15% to 20% (i.e. 24gm or 22gm) with the result being that you can now get the front wheel to lift on initial acceleration AND that you present a significant challenge to Corvettes as well as eat Harleys in a 1/4 mile drag race.

There are many here who installed lighter variator weights, some as low as 21-22gm, and no one has ever posted that they've managed to lift the front wheel on take off.

Certainly you must be doing something significantly more to allow such an increase in performance. What about clutch slippage...belt slippage? Please tell us more.

Tim

Hi Tim, Thanks for your Intelligent Reply, Yes I Have and do many modifications to my and other Peoples bikes, I have at my Home a Complete Machine Shop Including Lathes and Milling Machines, I am able to Re Machine the Variator's to obtain some of the Performance I have Described. This increased performance is made up of many Small things, A set of Dr Pulley Sliders will not do the Job. I felt going into more Techinal information here was Beyond the Poster's Interest and too Detailed to Explain Here. Modifing Honda Quality parts has always worked better and been more Dependable than most of the After market Things available, The J. Cost a lot Variator is an Example, This thing requires constant Maintanence and Components wear out Rapidly. I do not like seeing people buy things that I know from Experience will leave them on the side of the Road. The Malossi White Torque Spring is Very Important, It Holds the Lighter Variator Rollers Lower on their Ramps longer, Thus Allowing the Belt to Remain lower in the pulley, Increasing the reduction ratio until the engine has had time to get into its torque Curve, If I can be of Furthur Assistance, Please let me Know, I enjoy Helping people and Riding fast Scooters. Again thank you for your Interest Happy Motoring lloyd 193.

Thanks Lloyd. Beside reducing the weights by 15-20% the what do you do to the variator to improve the performance?

Tim

Hi Tim, Thanks again for your Interest, Tim, I remachine the Variator Roller stop faces so that the Rollers can Have increased travel. By Removing Material at the Hub end of the Rollar Ramp the Roller will be able to travel further down the ramp Increasing the Pulley Width allowing the Belt to go lower in the Pulley, A .100 Removal is perfect. At the outer edge of the Roller Ramp, Only remove .020 Thousands of an inch. Any more will allow the belt to travel too High and increase your reduction ratio too much. These Modifications must be Done Accuretly, Doing all the Things I have Explained will make your Bike a Thrill to Ride and will cause people to look your Scooter over and ask where can I get one of these. If you test your Bike at the Drag Strip, Stage at the rear of the staging lane, You may Sometime Experience your Bike Lifting the Front Wheel out of the Beam Giving False Readings. These Modifications make your Bike Very Responsive, So be Careful until you have gotten use to the Increased Performance. Happy Motoring lloyd 193.

How does all that stuff work on trip to Alaska and back? And what do you do if something breaks and you need parts to get back on road---walking sucks. Belt Life??

Hi John, You Hit the Nail on the Head, That is why I advocate using Honda Parts, Not Aftermarket Parts. Any Honda Dealer has stock parts that would allow you to Replace your Modified Parts and go Home. Nothing I have Described Here Shortens Belt Life, May be a little hard on that Rear Tire, I Reccomend a New Belt OEM every 25 thousand miles. I have over the Years Traveled the Country on my Bikes. I never do anything Knowingly that Reduces Reliability or Safety. Happy Motoring lloyd 193

Hi John, I neglected to respond to your Question about Alaska, It is too cold up there for an old Guy like me. Some of the Scooter Cannonball Riders who I help Prepare their Bikes For these Cross Country Endurance Runs tell Me It is Colder than a Well Diggers a** in Alaska, I think I will Continue Sweeting it out here in Florida.

lloyd193 wrote:

I Reccomend a New Belt OEM every 25 thousand miles.

Honda must have wasted millions on research and developement as they recommend 16,000 miles for a belt change. I'll bet they're wishing that they had yourself on the payroll all those years ago when they designed the Silver Wing.

Terrier, Thanks for your Enlightening Response, Some of the Fellows whose Bikes I Maintain have Run OEM Belts over 40 Thousand Miles, I try to tell everyone to Change by 25 Thousand, How the Bike is used and age Dictate Belt life, I bet a Belt would go 75 Thousand if it were all Highway. Speaking of Honda Engineers, Do you believe they have heard of Dr Pulley Sliders? Do you Believe Honda has Tried them? Do you Believe if Honda Engineers Thought they were Better that Honda would still be using Rollers? Should I need More Advise I will Contact you Again. Happy Motoring lloyd 193.

asking question: just how many miles do you have on SilverWing? Right now I have just over 80,000 miles on 2 new ones----so have some idea of how AK as well as my last Burgman 400---all the easy way to Hyder AK---but went reg way on CB750 Nighthawk.=too many people.

Lloyd wiil you sort yer puntuation out, the capitals are doing my head in :-)
My ocd must be playing up today!

Steve H80, Steve, I have not been in School in 60 years, During those Years of being in Business I had Ladies do my Letter writing, Spelling and Punctuation, So I am a Little Rusty. I am usually so busy here at my Shop and Home that I do not get Much Practice on the Computer. I Apologize I will try to do better as time permits. Happy Motoring lloyd 193.

lloyd193 wrote:

Should I need More Advise I will Contact you Again

You're quite welcome to contact me for more adviCe anytime. It'll be my pleasure.

This is starting to feel more or less a cockfight. (There is a new prince in the house.) Honda is a great brand, but as usual in business, numbers are that matters. The more you sell, the more you gain and make profit.

"

Olloyd193 wrote:

Hi Tim, Thanks again for your Interest, Tim, I remachine the Variator Roller stop faces so that the Rollers can Have increased travel. By Removing Material at the Hub end of the Rollar Ramp the Roller will be able to travel further down the ramp Increasing the Pulley Width allowing the Belt to go lower in the Pulley, A .100 Removal is perfect. At the outer edge of the Roller Ramp, Only remove .020 Thousands of an inch. Any more will allow the belt to travel too High and increase your reduction ratio too much. These Modifications must be Done Accuretly, Doing all the Things I have Explained will make your Bike a Thrill to Ride and will cause people to look your Scooter over and ask where can I get one of these. If you test your Bike at the Drag Strip, Stage at the rear of the staging lane, You may Sometime Experience your Bike Lifting the Front Wheel out of the Beam Giving False Readings. These Modifications make your Bike Very Responsive, So be Careful until you have gotten use to the Increased Performance. Happy Motoring lloyd 193.

Lloyd you are very well skilled at performance machining. But it also sounds as if you are doing much the same as the Performance Variator Dr Pulley is developing for the Silverwing.

Seems to me that, because of their shape, changing to sliding variator weights would eliminate the need to machine that .020 thousants off the outer edge (roller stop) of the variator --because the sliders push out further than OEM rollers.

Also, wouldn't adding a shim between the variator boss and the fixed (fan) pulley half allow the belt to drop further down into the variator thus changing the initial gear ratio?

25,000 miles between belt changes? I don't think that's advisable. AFAIK there is no Honda in the country who has either Silverwing variator rollers or belts on hand. And given that the Silverwing has been discontinued and hasn't been imported here since 2013, there is serious doubt that dealers would even have a tire on hand.

The Scooter Cannonball is limited to 250cc machines. Have you done these variator mods to many of those competitors? Have those competitors had any en-route variator or belt failures?

With the above being said, how much would you charge to remachine a variator sent to your shop?

Tim

Hi Tim. I am Happy to hear that dr. Pulley is Making a Variator for the Silverwing, This is news I have not heard before, We will see how it Works. I have been modifying Variators for more than 20 years. Honda Continues Using Rollers in their Variators because they are Smoother and Change position faster than Sliders. Shimming the variator removes its ability to adjust over the wide range of Ratios we are after. I regularly buy 155-70-13 Bridgestone Tires on the Internet, I have Experimented with several size rear Tires, Bike and Auto on the Silverwings and have decided that the 155 Bridgestone is Best for me. The Dealer's I use for Parts have no problem Supplying me with Rollers and Belts, I keep a good supply of both on hand. I was not aware that Silverwings were no longer being brought into the Country, I believe I put pads and a new belt on for a fellow with a 2014 Silverwing in February. I have done all sorts of work for some of the Cannonball guys, The 250 limit has just been imposed for the last Two Runs, All size scooters use to compete until the handicap system ruled them out and this new size limit was instituted. Most failures I am Aware of are Tire replacement and minor crashes. I do modifications on PS250's Nss250 and a number of other bikes Of all Sizes. If you will send down a NEW Variator Moveable half I will do the Machine work and return it to you postage paid for a Hundred Bucks. Have you considered trying one of Dr. Pulley's Variator's? I would be interested in your Results if you try one. All the Improvements we have talked about Require the Malossi white Torque spring in combination with the other changes we have talked about to get these surprising results. Happy Motoring lloyd 193.

Thanks for the explanation(s) of what you do, Lloyd.

We all benefit from shared information.

Hi Tim, Try a Dr. Pulley Variator and let me know how it works. Happy Motoring lloyd 193.

I noticed if I keep the small sliding lid on my coffee cup closed, my coffee stays hot a little longer while in my coffee cup holder on the Silverwing.

That is performance improvement that I can appreciate.

Modernman1953 wrote:

I noticed if I keep the small sliding lid on my coffee cup closed, my coffee stays hot a little longer while in my coffee cup holder on the Silverwing.  

That is performance improvement that I can appreciate.

:lol!: :lol!: :lol!: I love it!

Well this thread started out, as I thought a bit " tongue in cheek", I thought it was a wind up. Lloyd apparently likes to drag race, not something most of us are interested in. In my case why would anyone want to go in a straight line for quarter of a mile with the throttle wide open? .  Now the skill in riding fast, seems to me, to ride a circuit like the Isle of Man TT, where ordinary roads are closed off and riders compete against the clock, now that is riding skill. As for every day riding, we in the UK have a speed limit of 70M.P.H. so going faster means we could lose our right to ride. Riding sensibly on the road pleases everyone, doesn't it?.

I've decided I'm not going to shave off my moustache and beard for decreased air resistance. They keep me warm in winter, and in summer, the flies caught are a good source of protein!

Instead I've bought a set of Dr. Pulley 25gm sliders. With a new Gates drive belt and a set of OEM clutch springs (I stretched a couple   ), I'm hoping that will eliminate the bad vibes I tend to get when setting off.

I'm all for improving the beast, but not by radically changing it's nature - I have another bike for my adrenalin fixes.

Having ordered the parts, I now wonder if the clutch springs might well be worth upgrading - someone mentioned "white" springs along with Dr. Pulley sliders?

Old Limey, your point is well taken. Especially regarding the preeminent riding skills shown at the IoM TT --real bikes, real roads, real fast! But, as has been mentioned before, many of us old gits here are inveterate tinkerers and just can't leave well enough alone. 

Evidently Mr. Lloyd comes to us with a long history of tinkering and is sharing his knowledge. And while I don't see the value of drag racing either, being a dick-fingered tinkerer myself, I do appreciate what he offers.

Tim

Flyingpanman wrote:

<>Having ordered the parts, I now wonder if the clutch springs might well be worth upgrading - someone mentioned "white" springs along with Dr. Pulley sliders?

There are "two" Malossi white springs: the white torque spring which replaces the main spring on the Driven Pulley, and the white set of clutch shoe (clutch weight) springs which replace the OEM clutch springs. 

Malossi clutch springs come as a kit of springs of various stiffness; white, red & yellow. The white springs are the "weakest" yet are allegedly 10% stiffer than OEM springs. Curiously, no one knows the exact hardness rating of either the Honda or Malossi springs.

However because the Malossi clutch springs are much stiffer it causes the clutch to initially engage much closer to the power band --because you've got to increase the initial RPMs to get the clutch to engage.

Regretfully though I can't quite wrap my head around the effect of changing to a stiffer torque spring and its effect on real world riding. But because that spring is stiffer than the OEM spring, the Driven Pulley is more difficult to open --and that requires higher RPMs as well. So, I dunno...what, you've made two changes, both of which demand higher RPMs to function? Where does that get you...isn't that redundant?

I'm sure that you'll be impressed with your new sliders. Please let us know your impressions and what you may or may not have done to the clutch or torque spring.

Tim

I've done the slider, clutch spring and contra spring tuning.

The best way to think about it is that the sliders mostly control the "bandwidth" of the gear change and the contra spring mostly controls the overall ratio. The clutch springs control where you "let the clutch out", although since this is a driven clutch and not a drive clutch, there's more interplay between them.  

This is a simplification of the interactions, but it presents a workable model to gain insight.

I have the 26g sliders , a Pollini contra spring (blue 25% over) and white Malossi clutch springs (10% over)

I will be switching to 24g soon to get the "final travel" of the front and rear pulleys to be in sync.
This will put my "full acceleration" RPM about 100 RPM below the torque peak, and will achieve full-gear ratio just as I reach/pass rated full torque.

This is NOT a drag-racing setup, but tuning for a fully loaded SW to have the best in-traffic and merging performance.

Changing only one aspect of the CVT will result in only marginal improvement.

Remember that this type of tuning will decrease your fuel economy somewhat, you can't get more performance without using more energy too! My MPG is down about 5 MPG overall and by about 7-10 in spirited, high speed riding.

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

Flyingpanman wrote:

<>Having ordered the parts, I now wonder if the clutch springs might well be worth upgrading - someone mentioned "white" springs along with Dr. Pulley sliders?

There are "two" Malossi white springs: the white torque spring which replaces the main spring on the Driven Pulley, and the white set of clutch shoe (clutch weight) springs which replace the OEM clutch springs. 

Malossi clutch springs come as a kit of springs of various stiffness; white, red & yellow. The white springs are the "weakest" yet are allegedly 10% stiffer than OEM springs. Curiously, no one knows the exact hardness rating of either the Honda or Malossi springs.

Tim

Yes, the white clutch shoe springs were what I was thinking of. If they come as kits with all three colours, then I might buy them as they were only around £20.

As for the large main spring, I too hadn't thought it through but Sidewinder Pilot's explanation helps. Decreased fuel mileage was mentioned in the same post and with fuel prices in the UK equivalent to $5.78 per US gallon, I'll leave that modification well alone

Thank uou for that explanation, Sidewinder. 

So what would happen if you kept the 26gm sliders and OEM clutch springs but changed to a Malossi white torque spring? Assuming that the Malossi is "weaker" than the Ploini.

The stronger the contra spring. the more it resists the sliding weights, but, the spring pressure is relatively constant compared to the increasing force of the weights as RPM rises.

So, the slightly stronger contra would tend to push both the low:high ratio bandwidth closer together and lower overall.

The contra pretty much determines where you RPM will settle while the weights go up the ramps.

...So it's best to do any engine mods (if you're in to that sort of thing) first because that will effect where the torque/HP curves are.

Then change the contra spring to place that settled RPM just at the beginning of peak torque.
(if you are like me and plan NO engine performance mods, you want to use the Honda spec values)

After this is done, then decide how you want to have it "shift", either a "closer ratio gearbox" by using lighter weights or a "longer ratio" by using heavier weights. The heavier you load and the steeper your terrain, the closer you need. If you are average weight and run in flat areas. a longer setup is called for.
The Dr. Pulleys are available from 22g to 32g

Several posters have commented about my Running my Silver wing on the Drag Strip. The Drag strip and its Timing Equipment acts as my Dynamometer, My Test Laboratory where I evaluate Changes and New Parts I Have Made. If I wanted to Drag Race I certainly would not be Running a Silver wing Scooter. I would be Running something like my AA/Altered which I ran all over the South for 10 years in the 1960s, I held both ends of the Record with that Car. I am sure Photos From Hot Rod Magazine are still on the Web. The Name Competition Automotive Engineering Inc. my business appear on the side of my Roadster. Happy Motoring lloyd 193.

So you tinker and add Malossi bits to go fast in a straight line on a drag strip. What has that to do with real world riding in all weathers, in different riding conditions, and in traffic where the vast majority of Silver Wings are ridden.

Have you joined this forum solely to advertise your business and set your stall out hoping to sell performance bits by tell everyone how fast you and Silver Wing on steroids are

Do you actually have anything that's remotely of use for the average 50 plus to 60 plus Silver Wing owner. That would improve weather protection, carrying capacity, rider comfort, etc.

Because the Silver Wing is considered to be a rather boring old blokes maxi, not a geriatric crotch rocket like you'd like it be.

Meldrew, I am not in Business I am enjoying a Hobby and I have nothing for You. I test on the Drag Strip so that I can Blow you Newbes off the Road. I am Leaving in the Next few Days For the 129 where I will work on the handling of the Bikes I am taking Up There, Perhaps it will rain some, You Might try mounting a Windshield, I might buy a few New Photos as well.

You come across as having a classic case of Small Penis Syndrome mate. If you were an opera singer you'd be Flaccido Domingo.

Meldrew wrote:

You come across as having a classic case of Small Penis Syndrome mate. If you were an opera singer you'd be Flaccido Domingo.  

Shame one you! Your post is ...classless
!