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 25BHP performance chip ??

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4 posters
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yammer
Maxi-Scooter Rider
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yammer


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PostSubject: 25BHP performance chip ??   25BHP performance chip ?? I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 19, 2014 11:05 pm

I can understand that advancing the ignition can improve throttle response but an increase of 25BHP is a little far fetched Shocked

http://www.ebay.com/itm/25BHP-PERFORMANCE-CHIP-TUNING-BOX-HONDA-FSC600-SCOOTER-STAGE-3-WINTER-OFFER-/390934260474?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5b057f6afa&vxp=mtr
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: 25BHP performance chip ??   25BHP performance chip ?? I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 19, 2014 11:43 pm

Short of a new cam, remapped injection and a turbo charger I don't believe you could get that much hp increase. Even if you could you'd be trading engine life for power. I can't imagine how the scooter would handle it anyway. It's quick enough now but with that much more power I think the brakes and suspension would become pretty overwhelmed.
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: 25BHP performance chip ??   25BHP performance chip ?? I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 20, 2014 12:56 am

yammer wrote:
I can understand that advancing the ignition can improve throttle response

It can also cause the engine to ping with 87 octane fuel.

Besides that, the claim of advancing ignition timing by substituting a bogus value for mass air temp doesn't apply to Honda's PGM-FI system.  Both fuel injection timing and ignition timing events are pre-programmed and use TPS, Pb, and CPS to adjust the curve.

Fuel injector drive duration (mixture) is controlled by the ECT, IAT and MAP.  So the only thing feeding the ECU a bogus, colder than normal IAT value is going to do is richen the mixture slightly.

Edit:
Sorry, I should explain more for the folks not familiar with this system:

Honda's system is very basic. It is merely a logic controller that applies a "map" to to values it gets from various sensors. It is not a "smart" or adaptive learning computer like what is found in most automotive applications today. It only controls two things;
1.) Sends a signal the CDI to fire the spark plugs
2.) Sends a signal the injectors to turn them on. The longer the signal to the injectors lasts (called drive duration) the more fuel they squirt.

To control ignition timing you need information on throttle opening, which is supplied the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). We need information on manifold vacuum supplied by the Pb sensor. We need information on crankshaft position and engine rpm, supplied by the Crankshaft Position Sensor (CPS). Actually all the CPS does is supply a pulse that tells the ECU the crank is at a specific location, and the ECU compares the number of pulses it gets to it's internal clock to determine rpm.

To control air/fuel ratio (mixture) we need information on throttle opening, engine coolant temperature (ECT), intake air temp (IAT), and manifold absolute pressure (MAP), barometric corrected.

Under various operating conditions such as full throttle low rpm, we need retarded ignition timing due to greatly increased cylinder pressure which would cause a "ping" if the timing were left advanced. We also need a very rich mixture around a 9.7:1 air/fuel ratio for maximum power and torque. The values sent to the ECU consist of low manifold vacuum, high manifold pressure, and whatever the temp sensors are sending at the time.

At the other extreme of high rpm closed throttle we need advanced ignition timing to insure no unburned fuel makes it into the exhaust system and causes a backfire. And we can shut the fuel completely off and not even fire the injectors. The sensors send values of very high intake manifold vacuum, very low manifold pressure, and again whatever the temps are at.

The logic box (ECU) merely gets all these values at any one time and applies the closest point on the "map" that is pre-programmed into it for that particular set of values that it received to send out it's two control signals.

HRC has sold PGM-FI uploaders and software for off-road or racing engines for years. I'm pretty sure those can be "hacked" to work on most street engines. Looking at all these that this fellow has for sale, it looks to me like that's what he's done, at least for the various Honda's:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/powertuning.2009/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

He has the same ad for every "tuner" that he sells, so the +25BHP thing is a bit misleading. It looks to me like sort of a "brand" name he gives it. If it allows changing the map for the Silver Wing's system, it is well worth the $44 that it costs compared to what you'd spend to get one from HRC. If it just has one pre-programmed map in it then chances are you'd be better off to spend your $44 bucks on something else.
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yammer
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yammer


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PostSubject: Re: 25BHP performance chip ??   25BHP performance chip ?? I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 20, 2014 3:01 am

Well, if you have decent fuel, unlike here in Malta one might benefit for having some advance 2-4 degrees, as most engines are tuned/enriched from the factory to run on
the poorest fuel. I was tempted to use a dremmel to slot ignition back plate holes of my XJR1300 to enable me to advance the ignition instead of replacing the rotor as commonly done until I found that the quality of our fuel is much lower than the 95 RON that it's supposed to be.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: 25BHP performance chip ??   25BHP performance chip ?? I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 20, 2014 10:52 am

Wow! Chris, thanks for that explainer.

Actually, because I seem to get my best fuel economy when riding in hot weather, I have been thinking about a simple (parallel resistance) circuit to fool the ECT thermistor into telling the ECU that it was 'actually' 90°F out. Adding a parallel resistor to the IAT supposedly should assist in that as well.

There is an interesting discussion (that's a bit over my head) in a Prius forum regarding hacking the ECT. Though the hack seems to be to a different end, the idea seems to be the same.
http://priuschat.com/threads/another-thermistor-hack.36342/#axzz3Drrboico

Conversely: Regarding changing the timing; the IAT could be relocated to the front of the scoot where the incoming air is cooler and that would theoretically advance the timing --as would adding a series resistor to the IAT.

Tim


Last edited by Cosmic_Jumper on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: 25BHP performance chip ??   25BHP performance chip ?? I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 20, 2014 11:15 am

Actually, those are my thoughts exactly. It's WAY easier to "fool" the ECU into doing what you want by changing the values that the sensors send than it is to change the map in the ECU.
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