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Mech 1 twa
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 05, 2021 6:15 am

Hi. I'm new on this forum and from Devon in the UK.
I've got a 2001 Silverwing 600 which I bought in a sorry condition but am slowly improving it.

I've got a concern as the UK has just introduced E10 fuel and am not sure if my old bike can safely run on it. Our local filling station(gas station) has stopped selling E5 so I have to travel further to fill up.

I would be grateful for any advice.
Thanks.
Andy
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 05, 2021 8:27 am

Welcome aboard Andy, in a nutshell the older the bike the worse the Ethanol is on the system the longer it's sets with Ethanol in the system the worse it is. I just went through this with a carbureted small engine that I had Stabil in the fuel. My 05 doesn't seem to have suffered so far as I keep fresh fuel in it and double the Stabil for winter storage.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 05, 2021 9:46 am

Hello Raggie. Welcome to the forum.

To echo what OWG just said. The longer non-ethanol fuel sits the more it draws moisture and that water separates from the fuel, contributes to tank rust, and generally contributes to ill will in the fuel system.

Many of us here in the US have been forced to live with E-10 fuel for years. It hasn’t negatively effected our Silverwings. However when the weather turns sour and we’ve got to put them down for a winter nap we use Stabil fuel treatment, which stabilizes the integrity of the fuel.

So, the bottom line is, don’t sweat using E-10 fuel. Just use a proper fuel treatment if you have to stop using it for a period of time.
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 05, 2021 12:54 pm

Thanks for the info guys. So basically no need to worry, just use it and add a fuel treatment if storing it for the winter.
Much appreciated 🙏☺
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 05, 2021 1:48 pm

If you have Marine Stabil use it, stronger stuff.
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terrier
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 05, 2021 1:59 pm

Raggie wrote:
Thanks for the info guys. So basically no need to worry,  just use it and add a fuel treatment if storing it for the winter.
Much appreciated 🙏☺

Have a look here
https://check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.uk/manufacturer/Honda%20Motorcycles
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 06, 2021 8:17 am

I might still have a bottle of fuel stabiliser somewhere in my garage. I dosed a full fuel tank one winter a few years ago after reading posts on some maxi forum about fuel going 'off'. I can't remember which maxi scooter I owned at the time, and it was certainly before I retired and moved to York.

Whether it was posts concerning ethanol based fuels degrading I can't remember either. I don't think I'll use fuel stabiliser now we’re using E10, I'll just carry on with my normal winter routine of changing to full face helmet, full textile suit, and winter gloves. Taking the scooter out on a dry day, getting a decent ride in, filling up if necessary on the way home, and then washing and hot air drying the Forza when I get back home.

It's a pretty easy job on the Forza, especially as I remember the hassle of cleaning that dirt trap, overweight lump of Burgman 650 I used to have.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 06, 2021 4:33 pm

Fuel stabilizer is only good for two years after it's opened buy fresh every year. If you ride year round really no need for it. Those of us who put bikes away for months at a time should use it or buy non ethanol gas for that last fill up. I just add a little in season till it's used up and buy more before Winter.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 07, 2021 10:40 am

LOL, unstabil Stabil.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 08, 2021 7:32 am

This topic is confusing me. I have used 95 octane because I thought that 98 octane would burn hotter and my old 2001 SW engine wouldn't like it, (valve burning perhaps). Shell stopped selling 95 octane a couple of years ago.

I now find that E10 is 95 octane and E5 is 98 octane. This means that Shell will only be selling E5 unless they revert to 95 octane, i.e. E10.

Should I be running my SW on 98 octane?...i.e. E5?...or have I been correct in running it on 95 octane, i.e. E10? My brain hurts !
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Mottza
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 08, 2021 9:07 am

Normal Unleaded - 95RON - E10
Super Unleaded - 97-98RON - E5

Run on Normal Unleaded unless not using bike for over 4 weeks, either use stabiliser or Super Unleaded.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 08, 2021 1:44 pm

Thanks Mottza. Are you saying that Super Unleaded has a longer 'shelf-life'?, so to speak.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 08, 2021 8:42 pm

Ethanol has a very high octane rating. 100 plus but has around 60% of BTU's compared to gas thus uses more to make same power. Stick with E5 and add a bit of stabilizer that cleans injectors and such.

Fill the tank if not riding much E5-10 will work fine biggest problems occur when something sits for a long time and fuel separates. Phase Separation ethanol mixes with water in air and it all goes down hill from there. Rust, gummed up fuel pumps etc.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 08, 2021 9:26 pm

I have a E85 fuel ready Ford Ranger twice I've run a couple of tanks of E85 in it both times it wasn't worth the money per gallon difference and to top it off it's suggested to run the block heater in the winter, that heater spins a electric meter fast enough to screw it into the ground.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 08, 2021 10:06 pm

Big loop hole on those multi-fuel car-truck things for the car companies. Govt. mandates just a bunch of crap to push ethanol. Scam. Do your own research.
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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 08, 2021 10:16 pm

This whole "ethanol" E10 was just as confusing on this side of the pond when it came out, way too many experts out there  confused cofusing the issue, they have really made it worse in the UK by assigning different percentages of ethanol to certain octanes.

 IAC whe are talking SW600 here, the owners manual in my US model states 86 octane or better, max 10% alcohol(Ethanol), so 91/E10 US(better)= 95/E10 UK, anything more is wasting resources IMO, no performance/economy gain, the bike will perform power wise the same 95/E10 fuel, just worse fuel economy. As long as the fuel meets the engine AKI(anti knock index) it will perform the same.
 
 Ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs moisture from the air over time, treating fuel and completely filling tank to reduce air volume works in most cases for limited storage/months. The higher the ethanol percentage, the bigger the water sponge !!
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 09, 2021 4:38 am

To add to the confusion over in the states you measure the octane thing different to the rest of the world.
Environmentally I'm not immediately convinced the whole E thing makes sense, I suspect it's more box ticking till electrification gets it's act together.
Until then pass me another dinosaur 😁
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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 09, 2021 11:48 am

steve_h80 wrote:
To add to the confusion over in the states you measure the octane thing different to the rest of the world.
Environmentally I'm not immediately convinced the whole E thing makes sense, I suspect it's more box ticking till electrification gets it's act together.
Until then pass me another dinosaur 😁

 The state of Florida where I reside, revoked the E10 mandate years ago, mostly citing long term damage to the boating, motorcycles, off road vehicles, small engines etc., very big industires here, there was no real compelling argument or data from pro E10 three-huggers, to justify is use, like air quality improvements in cities in Florida, etc, etc.  

 Bill was approved/signed off into law by Governor !!  sunny

 In addition since for the most part we don't have any safety/emissions inspection or enforcement in general, is a great place to have modded vehicles, etc.  bounce Billowing smoke exhaust or big noise will get LEO's attention  Suspect

  Most gas stations carry ethanol fuels as they are more widely produced, 
but ethanol free is common with no restrictions, is more costly but usually 90 or better octane  bounce

 My OEM stock, daily driver 2.0L 2018 Ford Focus/DCT basic trim is flex fuel capable, I've tested all fuel types, I get best results 89/E10.
 
 My SW600 get's a steady diet of 92 NE gas, mostly to prevent moisture issues, just a mile from the house, 50-55mpg Avg. 

Uk fuel questions  Gas10
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 09, 2021 2:31 pm

zrx212 wrote:

 The state of Florida where I reside, revoked the E10 mandate years ago, mostly citing long term damage to the boating, motorcycles, off road vehicles, small engines etc., very big industires here, there was no real compelling argument or data from pro E10 three-huggers, to justify is use, like air quality improvements in cities in Florida, etc, etc.  
Bill was approved/signed off into law by Governor !!  sunny

 In addition since for the most part we don't have any safety/emissions inspection or enforcement in general, is a great place to have modded vehicles, etc.  (snip)

Then too you all do get your annual spate of hurricanes which blow all that pollution over to Bermuda or up north.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 09, 2021 3:08 pm

Mech 1 twa wrote:
Big loop hole on those multi-fuel car-truck things for the car companies.  Govt.  mandates just a bunch of crap to push ethanol.  Scam. Do your own research.

Right, our U.S.A ethanol is for the most part is from corn, a one crop a year source, if they want to really do something with it make it a grass based product. I look at it as more a forced on us product to subsidize the mega corn farmers.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 09, 2021 3:22 pm

Our ethanol in the the UK is produced from fermenting renewable crops like corn, wheat, and sugar beet into alcohol.
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 09, 2021 5:46 pm

Well, that's just great. Now I have to study meteorology and climatics in order to decide which fuel I use?

Oh, just take me back to the days of 4 Star petrol. Rolling Eyes
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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 09, 2021 7:22 pm

Loosemarbles wrote:
Well, that's just great. Now I have to study meteorology and climatics in order to decide which fuel I use?

Oh, just take me back to the days of 4 Star petrol. Rolling Eyes

 No you dont, E10 is completely safe for SW600, just add stabilizer and idle for a few minutes prior to 1-3 month storage !!

 " This topic is confusing me. I have used 95 octane because I thought that 98 octane would burn hotter and my old 2001 SW engine wouldn't like it, (valve burning perhaps). Shell stopped selling 95 octane a couple of years ago."


 Higher octane fuels actually burn cooler and can produce more carbon in an engine designed for lower octane.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 09, 2021 9:16 pm

Meldrew wrote:
Our ethanol in the the UK is produced from fermenting renewable crops like corn, wheat, and sugar beet into alcohol.

Focusing on beet ethanol makes sense for a number of reasons. Green Vision’s figures show that beets produce twice as much ethanol per acre as corn and require about 40 percent less water per gallon of ethanol produced. Using beets instead of corn also sidesteps the controversy associated with using a food product for fuel.

American farmers are paid to grow corn when better alternatives are out there. Subsidized by federal Govt. FYI

Ride On. I'm going riding this weekend looks like a very nice weekend up here in Northeast going to burn the E10 all day long.



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zrx212
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 10, 2021 6:57 am

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
zrx212 wrote:

 The state of Florida where I reside, revoked the E10 mandate years ago, mostly citing long term damage to the boating, motorcycles, off road vehicles, small engines etc., very big industires here, there was no real compelling argument or data from pro E10 three-huggers, to justify is use, like air quality improvements in cities in Florida, etc, etc.  
Bill was approved/signed off into law by Governor !!  sunny

 In addition since for the most part we don't have any safety/emissions inspection or enforcement in general, is a great place to have modded vehicles, etc.  (snip)

Then too you all do get your annual spate of hurricanes which blow all that pollution over to Bermuda or up north.

 Yes, Hurricanes is one natures way of cleaning the enviroment, that and almost daily summer afternoon Rain/Thunderstorms(Which I truly convinced is a State law!!  Uk fuel questions  1f616 ) keeps the air fresh, we don't need any EPA/CARB/Prop65 telling us what's bad for us, a natural disaster in all probability kill us 1st, before any polluton related concern  Shocked

 So BOT, just seen 88/E15 at local gas station, anyone try it yet ...  Uk fuel questions  1f601
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 30, 2022 1:08 pm

I chatted with on old friend recently about fuel. He's been hoarding bikes for years so they stand idle for a long time before he gets around to fettling with them. He says that there is a petrol station near here which sells E0 fuel.

I just wondered if anybody has tried this and whether it affected their bike.

My SW never stands for more than about 3 weeks without use so I'm not sure I should consider it. It would be nice to know that my SW isn't ingesting these nasties which we have in our fuel, even though we're fuel injected.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 30, 2022 2:07 pm

E10 fuel replaced 95 octane Unleaded in all UK petrol stations in September 2021, so you've been using it for at least six months whether you've been aware of it or not. You can't consider using E10, you've no option. Fuel is full of carcinogens whether it's Unleaded or E10, and old style Leaded petrol is the nastiest fuel of all.

I've read a lot of rubbish about E10 and ethanol fuel on scooter forums, but as long as you're using your maxi regularly it's no different to 95 octane Regular Unleaded.

Yesterday afternoon I filled my Forza up with Texaco E10 in York and rode the 190 miles to Stansted, Essex without stopping with no problems at all. Tomorrow I'll fill up and do the return ride.


Last edited by Meldrew on Sun May 01, 2022 2:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Loosemarbles
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 30, 2022 3:12 pm

Meldrew is right. Our choice is E10 or Diesel. After a quick surf, the whole issue seems to point towards petrol 'shelf-life'. I'm experiencing deja vu here!

Long term storage, or classic cars/bikes , seem to be at risk from E5 and E10 but
more modern and regularly used engines can probably live with this.

I will dismiss my misplaced paranoia and keep on riding! thumbs up

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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeSun May 01, 2022 3:56 am

If you're really worried or plan long term storage try and find an Esso garage, in some areas their super unleaded is E0.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Uk fuel questions    Uk fuel questions  I_icon_minitimeMon May 02, 2022 3:00 am

Loosemarbles wrote:
Long term storage, or classic cars/bikes , seem to be at risk from E5 and E10

I wouldn't worry about the concerns of owners of these classic cars and motorcycles. They're a minority and enjoy being exempt from the annual Road Fund Licence the rest of us pay for. The same lot were whinging and complaining way back in 2000 when in line with other EU countries we changed from Leaded to Unleaded petrol.
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