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 Engine won't start

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IronSky
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 32
Location : Colorado
Points : 462
Registration date : 2021-06-24

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 5:05 pm

Now that I have fixed my mistake with the battery/main fuse. I am not out of the wood yet because I went back to square one - the original problem I posted about the engine not starting.  

When I try to start the engine, it did turn but not running as if it did not get any fuel.  Someone suggested bad spark plugs (new one installed) or bad spark plugs wires, or something else.

Since I am deaf, I decided to place a drive link to my video here with sounds to see if you can tell me what you think what's wrong when I tried to start.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wlCxUT6wXnE3OuWTx_m12nc5MuyTuqly/view?usp=sharing
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 374
Age : 63
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 979
Registration date : 2020-12-26

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 5:40 pm

I can not hear the fuel pump coming on ?, maybe  hold microphone by fuel door may and record, me and several other people asked/recommended things to check on a different thread. some steps, etc. 

Having multiple threads for same or related issue makes it real hard to keep up and/or recommend a fix !!, stick to one, really all over the place IMO.  scratch

IAC the fuel pump operation is 1st thing, before venturing somewhere else.

I know is frustrating, but help us, help you  Engine won't start 1f601
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IronSky
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 32
Location : Colorado
Points : 462
Registration date : 2021-06-24

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 5:47 pm

Ok sorry. I’m replacing spark plugs again. After this. Check with fuel pump. I hope not cuz I don’t want to open gas tank, to get to pump? won’t I?
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 374
Age : 63
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 979
Registration date : 2020-12-26

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 7:01 pm

IronSky wrote:
Ok sorry.  I’m replacing spark plugs again. After this. Check with fuel pump. I hope not cuz I don’t want to open gas tank, to get to pump? won’t I?

 You don't have open gas tank, just verify the pump is running or not for now, no need to get ahead of ourselves.

 Modern spark plugs and coils very rarely go bad or fail, you need to check spark by just connecting a plug to a spark plug wire, holding against engine metal, etc., while cranking, BTW you need to leave one plug installed or ground both plugs if they are removed to work correctly.
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Terry Smith
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider
Terry Smith


Number of posts : 331
Age : 57
Location : Auckland, New Zealand
Points : 1235
Registration date : 2020-03-11

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 7:03 pm

I don't hear the fuel pump prime either. Replacing plugs is pointless if the fuel pump is not running. You can check the fuel cut relay (which starts/stops the pump, located on the left side under the side cover below the seat) is functioning correctly with a multimeter, if that is OK then I would next check that power is reaching the connector to the pump at the tank.
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IronSky
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 32
Location : Colorado
Points : 462
Registration date : 2021-06-24

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 7:13 pm

Terry Smith wrote:
Replacing plugs is pointless if the fuel pump is not running.

I purchased the bike from owner two weeks ago so I thought I went ahead and replace spark plug with new one. The old ones looked little bad anyway.


Quote :
You can check the fuel cut relay (which starts/stops the pump, located on the left side under the side cover below the seat) is functioning correctly with a multimeter

I will need to get a multimeter.

Quote :
if that is OK then I would next check that power is reaching the connector to the pump at the tank.

How?
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IronSky
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 32
Location : Colorado
Points : 462
Registration date : 2021-06-24

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 7:14 pm

[quote="zrx212"]
IronSky wrote:
 Modern spark plugs and coils very rarely go bad or fail, you need to check spark by just connecting a plug to a spark plug wire, holding against engine metal, etc., while cranking, BTW you need to leave one plug installed or ground both plugs if they are removed to work correctly.

I am having someone coming over to hear sounds for me, hopefully, tonight or so.

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Terry Smith
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider
Terry Smith


Number of posts : 331
Age : 57
Location : Auckland, New Zealand
Points : 1235
Registration date : 2020-03-11

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 7:27 pm

IronSky wrote:
Terry Smith wrote:
Replacing plugs is pointless if the fuel pump is not running.

I purchased the bike from owner two weeks ago so I thought I went ahead and replace spark plug with new one.  The old ones looked little bad anyway.  


Quote :
You can check the fuel cut relay (which starts/stops the pump, located on the left side under the side cover below the seat) is functioning correctly with a multimeter

I will need to get a multimeter.

Quote :
if that is OK then I would next check that power is reaching the connector to the pump at the tank.

How?

Fair enough replacing the plugs then, can do no harm. I did that plus oil, filter, coolant and air filter when I got my Swing.

Check the fuel cut relay below the seat first. You should be able to feel this click on and then off after 5 seconds when the key is turned on. You can also use the multimeter here set to something like 20V DC, you're looking for 12-13V across the brown/blue and black/white wires.

If the relay checks out then  connect one probe to the incoming brown wire and the other to the green/pink wire at the fuel pump connector. When you turn the key, you should see 12-13V for 5 seconds then drop back to zero; that is the ECU going through the pump prime step at start-up.  If that doesn't show,  it may also be worth leaving the probe on the brown wire and putting the other on the frame or engine and just in case the earth connection has come loose.
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IronSky
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 32
Location : Colorado
Points : 462
Registration date : 2021-06-24

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 7:38 pm

Terry Smith wrote:
Fair enough replacing the plugs then, can do no harm. I did that plus oil, filter, coolant and air filter when I got my Swing.

I only did oil change with filter, new spark plugs, replace bad fuses, new battery. Maybe I should do an air filter next. Fun!!

Quote :
Check the fuel cut relay below the seat first. You should be able to feel this click on and then off after 5 seconds when the key is turned on. You can also use the multimeter here set to something like 20V DC, you're looking for 12-13V across the brown/blue and black/white wires.

Okay I will try feeling the "click" on fuel cut relay next. I am not an electrician so I never used a multimeter, voltmeter, etc. whatever you called it before. Shocked

Quote :
If the relay checks out then  connect one probe to the incoming brown wire and the other to the green/pink wire at the fuel pump connector.

Sorry for asking stuipd question, where is fuel pump connector at?

Quote :
When you turn the key, you should see 12-13V for 5 seconds then drop back to zero; that is the ECU going through the pump prime step at start-up.  If that doesn't show,  it may also be worth leaving the probe on the brown wire and putting the other on the frame or engine and just in case the earth connection has come loose.

Okay. I will do it once I location connector.
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IronSky
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 32
Location : Colorado
Points : 462
Registration date : 2021-06-24

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 7:44 pm

Quote :
Check the fuel cut relay below the seat first. You should be able to feel this click on and then off after 5 seconds when the key is turned on.

Oh, I forgot to ask, what if I don't feel any clicking on fuel cut relay?

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Terry Smith
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider
Terry Smith


Number of posts : 331
Age : 57
Location : Auckland, New Zealand
Points : 1235
Registration date : 2020-03-11

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 7:51 pm

The fuel pump connector is located on the fuel tank shell, in front of the engine. You will need to remove some plastic to get there sorry. The service manual link that I gave you has detailed instructions on all the plastic removal, in section 2. You will need some basic tools (from memory at least philips screwdriver, 5, 6 and 8 mm allen keys, 8, 10 and 12mm sockets) plus patience.


The plug body is white and it has 4 wires.

Engine won't start Img_1110
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Terry Smith
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider
Terry Smith


Number of posts : 331
Age : 57
Location : Auckland, New Zealand
Points : 1235
Registration date : 2020-03-11

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 7:56 pm

IronSky wrote:
Quote :
Check the fuel cut relay below the seat first. You should be able to feel this click on and then off after 5 seconds when the key is turned on.

Oh, I forgot to ask, what if I don't feel any clicking on fuel cut relay?


Do the voltage check to see if the ECU is sending 12V to the relay to close it, across the brown/blue and black/white wires.

If the signal to the relay is OK but the relay is not functioning, you can insert a jumper wire across the brown and black/white wires in the socket to simulate the relay function AS A TEST ONLY. That should make the pump run continually with the ignition on.
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IronSky
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 32
Location : Colorado
Points : 462
Registration date : 2021-06-24

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 8:05 pm

Terry Smith wrote:
If the signal to the relay is OK but the relay is not functioning, you can insert a jumper wire across the brown and black/white wires in the socket to simulate the relay function AS A TEST ONLY. That should make the pump run continually with the ignition on.

Like on page 5-80/81 on the service manual? If this test works, then what? Need to replace fuel cut-off relay?
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Terry Smith
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider
Terry Smith


Number of posts : 331
Age : 57
Location : Auckland, New Zealand
Points : 1235
Registration date : 2020-03-11

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 06, 2021 8:07 pm

Yes; looks like an easy to get part.

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/38501-GEE-712?ref=7c7914b3be483618e2fad497158ffb81e8afad2f
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IronSky
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 32
Location : Colorado
Points : 462
Registration date : 2021-06-24

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 07, 2021 3:05 am

Terry Smith wrote:
The fuel pump connector is located on the fuel tank shell, in front of the engine. You will need to remove some plastic to get there sorry. The service manual link that I gave you has detailed instructions on all the plastic removal, in section 2. You will need some basic tools (from memory at least philips screwdriver, 5, 6 and 8 mm allen keys, 8, 10 and 12mm sockets) plus patience.


The plug body is white and it has 4 wires.

Engine won't start Img_1110

You must be talking about 4P CONNECTOR, 5-81/82?
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IronSky
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 32
Location : Colorado
Points : 462
Registration date : 2021-06-24

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 07, 2021 10:55 am

Suffered another setback.  

I was going to check with the relay and connector this morning, but my bike brand new battery died. Something has drained it overnight.  No idea what may cause to suck it dry. A bad stator?

Taking battery to shop for recharge.
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zrx212
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider



Number of posts : 374
Age : 63
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 979
Registration date : 2020-12-26

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 07, 2021 3:21 pm

Either your under seat storage light stayed on or you have an active short, remove the light bulb while your working on bike.
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Terry Smith
Touring Scooter Rider
Touring Scooter Rider
Terry Smith


Number of posts : 331
Age : 57
Location : Auckland, New Zealand
Points : 1235
Registration date : 2020-03-11

Engine won't start Empty
PostSubject: Re: Engine won't start   Engine won't start I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 07, 2021 5:17 pm

IronSky wrote:
Terry Smith wrote:
The fuel pump connector is located on the fuel tank shell, in front of the engine. You will need to remove some plastic to get there sorry. The service manual link that I gave you has detailed instructions on all the plastic removal, in section 2. You will need some basic tools (from memory at least philips screwdriver, 5, 6 and 8 mm allen keys, 8, 10 and 12mm sockets) plus patience.


The plug body is white and it has 4 wires.

Engine won't start Img_1110

You must be talking about 4P CONNECTOR, 5-81/82?

Yes indeed.
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