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 Radial Tires?

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Bluerider3
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PostSubject: Radial Tires?   Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:14 pm

Does any company make radial tires for the scooter riders or are we stuck with bias ply tires only?

Just a FYI Dennis Kirk has the Michelin Power Pure tires for $125.76 for the pair. Front 120-80-14 and rear 150-70-13. These are bias ply.
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scotchjoe
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:30 pm

Changed the tyres on my Silverwing 2k miles back and was also surprised that no radial tyres were available in the correct sizes.Its my first scooter so with no previous experience to go by I decided to go with a well known brand,Michelin Power pure tyres.
Front end tramlines and a wee bit skittish over the white lines but its all fairly predictable and manageable.In all fairness the scooter is always ridden with both a rider and pillion so the tyres are worked hard.Can't help but feel that radial tyres would improve the ride on the scooter.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:37 am

SilverWing was not designed for radial tires.....nor car tires.
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scotchjoe
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:25 am

I find the Silverwing transmits every bump and pothole right up my old spine.
Radial tyres with a more pliable sidewall would help the suspension in doing its job.
Many an old 1980's bike has been transformed into a superior handling machine by fitting radial tyres that they were never designed to use.
Honda have decided to use bias ply on the Silverwing,that choice could be nothing more than financial.They are using the tyres that are available to them,Honda don't make tyres.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:43 am

But they test them.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:07 am

scotchjoe wrote:
I find the Silverwing transmits every bump and pothole right up my old spine.

Then I have to ask, why did you buy it? scratch
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scotchjoe
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:32 am

Meldrew wrote:
scotchjoe wrote:
I find the Silverwing transmits every bump and pothole right up my old spine.

Then I have to ask, why did you buy it? scratch

I bought it because I like the way it shimmers in the moonlight.
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scotchjoe
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:55 am

i can fix the suspension to work the way I want it too,that's not a problem.The bias ply tyre with its very stiff side wall is working against me.I can't fix that.
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Sidewinder Pilot
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:20 am

The best improvement would be not running a Power Pure on the front....it will dance like a Hula Hoop girl in a Conga Line!
I quit using them because of that, plus they all had a desire to wobble, especially decelerating through 40-30 mph.

Used Shinko for my last two changes, but they're not good in rain or even damp roads...
City Grip is on order, installing next week.
I'll try doing the matched set first, but may end up next time with Power Pure SC on rear...
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:04 pm

If the suspension is banging that bad scotchjoe it most likely to be the rear suspension, either on the wtong settings or utterly worn out.
Bias ply to radial wouldnt make much difference on a bike with the dynamics of a silverwing. If anying radials are usually less forgiving.
The reason radials felt better on old bikes in the 80/90s was more to do with modern rubber compound than anything intrinsic in the carcass design.
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scotchjoe
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:41 pm

steve_h80 wrote:
If the suspension is banging that bad scotchjoe it most likely to be the rear suspension, either on the wtong settings or utterly worn out.
Bias ply to radial wouldnt make much difference on a bike with the dynamics of a silverwing. If anying radials are usually less forgiving.
I never said the suspension was banging,I said that jolts from potholes and bumps were being transmitted up through the bike.
Forks were overhauled 2k miles ago,rear shocks are fine and on the correct setting for the load.The bike has done only 5500 miles.The Silverwings suspension is very basic to say the least,its working the best that it can.
How can you state that radials wouldn't make a difference on a silverwing?How can you know?
Radials less forgiving than bias ply tyres scratch ,how is it possible for a tyre with a stiff side-wall to be more forgiving than a tyre with a side wall that is able to flex.
Are you saying that tyre technology is actually moving backwards?
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scotchjoe
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:52 pm

steve_h80 wrote:
Oops pressed go too early...
The reason radials felt better on old bikes in the 80/90s was more to do with modern rubber compound than anything intrinsic in the carcass design.

I think you may have misunderstood my point.
I was trying to convey that bikes from the 1980's left the production line with ply tyres because that was all that was available then.
The same bikes still in use today,but now wearing radial tyres are greatly improved by the modern tyre technology.
My view is that we will have radials available for the Silverwing within five years.
Whats wrong with wanting modern rubber No
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scotchjoe
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:08 pm

Sidewinder Pilot wrote:
The best improvement would be not running a Power Pure on the front....it will dance like a Hula Hoop girl in a Conga Line!
I quit using them because of that, plus they all had a desire to wobble, especially decelerating through 40-30 mph.

Used Shinko for my last two changes, but they're not good in rain or even damp roads...
City Grip is on order, installing next week.
I'll try doing the matched set first, but may end up next time with Power Pure SC on rear...

I will take your advice and change the front tyre.
Thankyou
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:27 pm

Well you can't get radials in sizes that fit the Silver Wing and you say the suspension is fine. I can't imagine that the road surfaces in Northern Ireland being any worse than what the rest of us the UK ride on.

Over the years I've been over there on three different bikes and a 650 Burgman, and apart from the inevitable fine rain, I don't remember any problems with poor road surfaces, just sand being blown onto roads around the coastal roads of County Antrim.

As for saying the suspension on the Silver Wing is very basic to say the least, it's no different to the the vast majority of maxi scooters that have tele forks and twin adjustable rear shock absorbers. That big Burgman I mentioned earlier has virtually the same set up as the Silver Wing.

The key words here being maxi scooters, they're not sports bikes or whatever else you rode before buying the Silver Wing.
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Sidewinder Pilot
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:51 pm

As they say, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear"

...But I can dang sure put a silk lining in pig skin handbag!
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Sidewinder Pilot
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:07 pm

Anyways, as I recall the reason radials are not recommended for retrofit is the steering geometry requirements are different (the rake/trail equation), also proper compliance from the suspension is needed, so you need rebound damping.

I guess if you wanted to put radials on the wing you'll first commission a tire company to manufacture one to fit, then put on the $500 rear shocks with adjustable compression and rebound.
Then find and retrofit a cartridge fork front end from something to give the correct geometry and damping...................... Evil or Very Mad

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scotchjoe
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:52 am

Okay,this forum is clearly not the place for me.
Goodbye
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Jolly Bodger
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:13 am

scotchjoe wrote:
Okay,this forum is clearly not the place for me.
Goodbye

Wow - you lot have upset him.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:37 am

In what way.? IMHO a lot of blokes come to maxi scooters after many years on bikes and sneering at maxi scooters, then they can't get their head round the fact that it's not the same as a bike. Instead of adapting to the characteristics of a maxi scooter over a period of time, they find faults that aren't there and blame tyres, suspension, lack of a clutch, a petrol tank to grip with their knees, etc.

Then when that Eureka moment comes and they finally get what maxi scooters are all about, they're wondering why they never bought one years ago.


Last edited by Meldrew on Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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bandito2
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:42 am

scotchjoe wrote:
I find the Silverwing transmits every bump and pothole right up my old spine.
Radial tyres with a more pliable sidewall would help the suspension in doing its job.
Many an old 1980's bike has been transformed into a superior handling machine by fitting radial tyres that they were never designed to use.
Honda have decided to use bias ply on the Silverwing,that choice could be nothing more than financial.They are using the tyres that are available to them,Honda don't make tyres.

With proper inflation, passenger vehicle tires (commonly known as car tires) are not as good as you might think as far as reducing the transmission of bumps to your spine. 1980's bikes being transformed into superior handling machines? I doubt it, I believe they did it for the same reasons "DarkSiders" do today. Mainly I believe for tire longevity. There are other reasons/benefits, but that longer tread life would be the main one.

"Car tires" behave differently than bike tires with the squared shoulder and wide tread base that exhibits a transition phase from upright to lean that some would not find "superior" at all. The differences/peculiarity of car tire handling CAN be managed well enough, but many are apprehensive with the idea of it and some don't like it after trying it.

There are radial tires for some of the big maxi-scooters; just none yet that I am aware of for the Silverwing. One aspect of bias bike tires Honda uses is mainly why most motorcycle manufacturers use motorcycle/scooter tires; Not specifically that they are bias ply perhaps, but rather that they have the rounded tire profile that makes for a higher degree of consistency in contact patch shape at all angles. This makes for smoother and more consistent handling behavior. The stiffer side wall is needed to help maintain the rounded profile.

BTW, Motorcycle tire manufacturers make the best tires they can for bikes and car tire manufactures make the best tires they can for cars. There is no conspiracy of bike tire manufacturers making tires for bikes that do not last as long as car tires with the big idea of selling them to a captive market...

Your problem of bump transmission to your spine is more likely a suspension and/or seating issue, not a tire issue.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of people here know I'm a big proponent of car tire use on bikes. But I've been around it long enough to know there are many that won't do it because they prefer not to go outside the manufacturer's recommendations. (among other reasons) That's fine and it's their choice.

It's a lot to take in, but if you'd like more info on car tire use on scooters, you could take the time to read this: it's not the be all, end all of car tire use on bikes; it's just how I see and know it. There, you will find out why bike tires wear out faster than car tires and why the ride is/seems smoother.
http://mcdarksiders.forumotion.com/t7188-for-maxi-scooters-the-darkside-according-to-bandito2-part-1-2

This all may be moot, but aren't "car tyres" banned in Ireland like they are in England?


Last edited by bandito2 on Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:25 am

scotchjoe wrote:
Okay,this forum is clearly not the place for me.
Goodbye  

WT?, You participate in a discussion, but storm out when informed comments don't support your preconceptions? Well, at least you've had the courtesy to say, "Goodbye".

"Ya can't always get what you want..."

PS: The door is always open.

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:15 pm

Maybe he'd have better luck on the Magic and Witchcraft forum! :lol!:
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:39 pm

Toys thrown out the pram methinks.
God knows why. Who upset him?
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:37 am

Don't worry about it, he's picked his toys up and is now quietly lurking in the shadows. Smile
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scotchjoe
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:25 am

Yes,decided to keep an eye on the thread to see if it continued as i expected it would.
If you read the thread from the beginning taking great care to pay attention to the comments printed in response to my posts,there has been complete nonsense spouted and supported from other members as informed comments.
I have as good as been called a liar,a post saying that they doubt a motorcycle that left the factory on plys was improved dramatically by fitting radial tyres.
Ask any VFR 750 1986-1999 owner who now rides on radials about the day and night difference in handling.Or any 1980's jap 400cc machine owners doing the same.The list is of older machines now being ridden on radials as different sizes become available is very long.I give you fact and you call me a witch.Also a very long post about car tyres,which I made no mention of.
I wonder how many of you's would fit a radial tyre if the correct size was available,time will tell me thinks.
I commented that the Silverwings suspension was very basic(again a fact),and got the head chewed off me.The informed response was that its the same as all the other maxi scooters out there and its not the same as what I am used too with the bikes I rode previously(oh I see so that makes it fine then).The suspension is very basic,Non adjustable forks and rear shocks only adjustable for preload is very basic.Another thread running concurrently states that the silverwings suspension is not up to the job but received no "informed" comments,only new guys not allowed to slate the Silverwing is it.
Instead of buying stupid looking screens that tilt down,tilt up ect,money would be better spent on upgrading forks and replacing the rear shocks.Suspension upgrades on any two wheel vehicle scooter or bike give the best return for your money.
I also seemingly don't get the scooter thing,its a Eureka moment you know.FFS
I may have only ridden 2k miles on my silverwing,but its more than enough for me to know that it will stay with me until I am fit to ride no more.I sold my Honda Blackbird after only 500 scooter miles,the Silverwing replacing it as our long distance tourer.
My silverwing was completely stripped down and rebuilt (apart from the engine)recommissioned for the road after a very long lay up.Its a very basic machine.I have a manual and the knowhow to get by without asking questions.I may have been of some help to forum members.
I have owned 42 motorcycles so far,had oil grimy crap under my fingernails for over 40 years.Alongside the Silverwing I now only have one other bike.A VFR800 hybrid.The holy grail of the mighty VFR.
A VFR800 vtec fitted with a gear driven cam 800cc engine from an earlier model.I believe that there are only four in existence.If i managed to do that I may actually have some idea of what I am talking about.
I seem to remember a thread recently where a chap offered to tell you's how to get more power from your Silverwing.He was also treated abysmally.
Seems the scooter brotherhood is not the same as the biker brotherhood.
I thought we were all kindred spirits,but no.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:41 am

AFAIK the steering geometry is fixed and non-adjustible. And, aside from going Darkside by mounting a car tire on the rear there are no radial tires available for the Silverwing.

There are a couple of aftermarket rear shocks available; Hagon being the most popular. Fornales shocks are also available. They are air shocks and so able to be fine tuned to a rider's needs.

HyperPro progressive springs are available for the front end, as is various weight fork oil. Many here feel that HyperPros are a big improvement over the OEM suspension. Someone with access to the right tools could modify the fork caps to make the pre-load adjustible as well. Unfortunately though the internal valving can't be upgraded. So, yes, the suspension is quite basic.

The fact of the matter is that aftermarket manufacturers haven't taken the maxi-scooter market seriously enough to offer any serious upgrades. Neither have the tire manufacturers opted to produce radial tires. So we're kind of "stuck" with the basic design of what we have.

It is what it is.

So what is it that you have done when you've stripped-down & rebuilt your Silverwing?

Tim
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:47 am

I can recommend Hagons if you ride two up with luggage, but they are still basic with preload only. Adjustable damping would be nice...
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Sidewinder Pilot
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:26 pm

This is my list of suspension and CVT parts (Christmas List)

The better of the YSS shocks has full bidirectional damping ...

Progressive fork springs Hyperpro SP-HO06-SSA016 -$160 www.epmperf.com
Hagon Shocks $274 www.hagonshocksusa.com
YSS Shocks, not sure of sources
RZ362-420TR is a gas/emulsion shock with adjustable damping. They are $499/pair + shipping.
RE302-420T is a standard hydraulic type shock. They are not adjustable and are $299/pair + shipping.
Dr. Pulley Sliders $75
Dr Pulley HiT clutch $360
Dr. Pulley Variator $360
https://www.buggypartsnw.com/index.php/dr-pulley-products/dr-pulley-slider-weights/400cc-and-higher/dr-pulley-slider-weight-28x20-for-600cc.html
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Sidewinder Pilot
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:50 pm

.....Also Ikon has a fully dampened unit for around the same as the YSS (500USD)

on ebay now...
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:54 pm

Yikes!!!! Hagons cont me £170, about $200 I'd guess.
I think I'll manage without adjustable damping lol
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janitorj1
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:34 am

What's a pram?
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:56 am

janitorj1 wrote:
What's a pram?

Really?  It's the proper name for what you'd call a baby stroller.
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Jolly Bodger
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:37 am

Pram is a shortened version of 'perambulator' which is a baby pushchair
JB
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:19 am

In a similar vein, what our dear American friends eat for breakfast and call grits, is known as wallpaper paste over here. Smile
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bikehiker
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:27 pm

Sidewinder Pilot wrote:
Anyways, as I recall the reason radials are not recommended for retrofit is the steering geometry requirements are different (the rake/trail equation), also proper compliance from the suspension is needed, so you need rebound damping.

I guess if you wanted to put radials on the wing you'll first commission a tire company to manufacture one to fit, then put on the $500 rear shocks with adjustable compression and rebound.
Then find and retrofit a cartridge fork front end from something to give the correct geometry and damping...................... Evil or Very Mad


I think Honda puts radials as standard on their NC700X bikes. I don't think their suspensions are very complex.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Radial Tires?   Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:14 pm

Bottom line to me----SilverWing was not designed for radials....and none as mc tires are available. It goes ok for what is is....a scooter, no amount of throwing money at suspension pieces will change that and remember it is an old design, no longer in production.
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