Try to use the correct terminology

In reading many posts in the Maintenance section, I and many others get frustrated with descriptions, in particular, engine starting problems.

Some examples are  "engine turns over but won't start", or "engine spins but won't start", or "I press the start switch, engine starts, but stops when I release the switch".

What do these descriptions mean? Who knows? It is very difficult to decipher through these vernacularly challenged posts to even attempt an answer when we have to guess what is actually happening.

Going forward, please try to use these descriptors.

When you turn on the ignition key and press the starter button, you are CRANKING the engine. When you release the starter button and the engine is making its sewing machine like noises and the tachometer indicates that there is spinning of the crankshaft, the engine is said to be RUNNING.

If you use the terms "Crank" and "Run", then there is no room for miscommunication. Please don't use the misleading terms  "Start", "Spin" or "Turn Over". Yes, I'm aware that the electrical device that cranks the engine is called a starter, but the word "Start" is really vague. Thanks to all for reading this.

Adding----scooters sometime appeal to people who know little of mechanical things or care, but scooter/bikes are not idiot proof.

Belt drive makes push/bump starts impossible(and I think fuel injection voltage requirements)-----larger displacement scooters do not have kick starters------turn on switch, no juice/lights/dash lights, you probably have dead battery----best solution in US is take battery out and take to Batteries Plus---they are battery experts and have reasonable quality batteries.... and then with strong batteries, scooters do not run or stay running.......but did the owner use "real Gas" or some sort of fuel prep when he parked for winter?

Often bikes that are not in daily use are hard on batteries, so replacement is often necessary in 2 years or so.

john grinsel wrote:

Belt drive makes push/bump starts impossible(and I think fuel injection voltage requirements)-----

Push (or pull) starting doesn't even require a battery on some fuel injected engines, particularly 2 strokes. When Arctic Cat introduced EFI on their 2 stroke snowmobile engines, the battery was not needed to even pull start. The magneto provided enough current to energize the EFI. Small fuel injected outboard 2 and 4 stroke engines without electric starting have no battery, yet use EFI.

How about SilverWing? I am familiar with my BMW K--75, under 11.5 volts=no go, might go run down steep mountain as engine spins fast to generate electric power.

Adding to Prof Bigbird's lexicon primer: how about an agreement on the terms for the drive system? The front pulley is the Variator which Honda calls the Drive Pulley; the rear pulley is the Driven Pulley; the Clutch is attached to the driven pulley, and fits into the Clutch Bell which Honda calls the Clutch Outer. The driven pulley/clutch and clutch bell all mount on the final drive input shaft.

The assembly of the variator, drive belt, driven pulley and clutch acting together are the transmission. While the cluster of gears housed between the clutch bell and the rear wheel is the final drive. The rear wheel fits on the final drive shaft or output shaft.

Tim

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

Adding to Prof Bigbird's lexicon primer:

The prof will be assigning homework.
Sketch all parts that Tim has mentioned, and label them. Test to follow.

john grinsel wrote:

How about SilverWing?  I am familiar with my BMW K--75, under 11.5 volts=no go,  might go run down steep mountain as engine spins fast to generate electric power.

If you got the Silverwing coasting fast enough downhill, or pulled it behind a tow vehicle, the transmission would directly engage the engine. I base that on the fact that if you kill the engine while coasting at higher speeds, you still get engine braking, which means there is direct hookup. Flipping the kill switch back on instantly has the engine running. You would still need the battery installed. But if the battery were dead, would this work? I think so.

I think the main posts should be pinned; I'll get Colin or one of the others to sort it out as I'm likely to delete everything!
If one or two of the more chatty posts disappear please don't be offended - Terry, Tim and John I suspect you will understand why.   

I think I understand, it's just that UK and North American termanology differs. We say our engine is "Ticking over" when you say at "idle", same as we have Petrol and you have Gas.  

MikeO wrote:

I think the main posts should be pinned; I'll get Colin or one of the others to sort it out

Thread sticky.

Old Limey wrote:

we have Petrol and you have Gas.  

What, don't the Brits ever have gas?
Must be your low fibre diet.

[quote="bigbird"If you got the Silverwing coasting fast enough downhill, or pulled it behind a tow vehicle, the transmission would directly engage the engine. I base that on the fact that if you kill the engine while coasting at higher speeds, you still get engine braking, which means there is direct hookup. Flipping the kill switch back on instantly has the engine running. You would still need the battery installed. But if the battery were dead, would this work? I think so.[/quote]

If I understand your post correctly, you seem to be saying that the SW can be bump started. Unfortunately, it can't be bump started because of the centrifugal clutch. Once the engine RPMs drop to approx 2000 rpm the clutch shoes disengage from the clutch bell and no amount of coasting speed will re-engage the clutch and allow the engine to restart.

But flipping the kill switch, momentarily, while at speed will kill the engine yet allow the engine to restart immmediately so long as the clutch shoes haven't disengaged.

The clutch bell is directly connected to the rear wheel via the final drive. The clutch is directly connected to the engine via the driven pulley, belt and variator. N'est-ce pas?

Tim

Tim, thank you I wanted to say the same thing but didn't want to type all that.(not feeling well today) I learned this when I road up north to hill county. When coasting downhill you need to blip the throttle to engage the clutch shoes to use the engine to help hold your speed down.

Yes, Tim, I agree. When I had the intermittent loss of power several years back at highway speeds only,  I remember now that my engine only momentarily cut out, not to the point of zero rpm. There was very strong engine braking. I eventually traced the intermittent cut-out to a loose side stand bypass I had made. I beefed it up considerably by using Sumitomo connectors.
So I do stand corrected. If the engine rpm drops below the engagement point of the clutch, the engine is disconnected from the rear wheel until rpm is brought back up to around 2k. Bump starting would be impossible.

bigbird said, "If you use the terms "Crank" and "Run", then there is no room for miscommunication. Please don't use the misleading terms  "Start", "Spin" or "Turn Over".

I know what you mean. I tried "Turning Over" an old V-8 one time and it nearly crushed my chest. Never again!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously though. After reading this thread I now understand why the Wing seemed to coast while coming up to a light or stop sign. Dropping below 2000 rpm disengages the clutch and it coasts.

I learn something new every time I'm on this site. Thank you all for the valuable information I have learned about my Wing!

This opens up a big bag of worms on East meets West terminology-again! Personally, I think that Start/Spin or Turnover are perfectly understandable synonyms for Crank or Run. Your definition of "correct " terminology might not be the same as others It is an International forum after all so ,a little forbearance please gentlemen.

Could we please have a poll on who gets frustrated by using multi terminology for basic functions?

You say "poteighto' I say "potatto" etc……………..whatever!

The OP made a perfectly valid point. Let us keep to it. Whichever term or word you use to describe a condition please make it quite clear what you mean. We can't see inside your head.

There is going to be some confusion, not everyone here has English, American, or Canadian as their mother tongue. Variations exist. Then there are those who have a problem and don't know the correct term. There also are some who lack a bit in grammar or vocabulary. It really shouldn't be all that difficult to ask for elucidation from the perpetrator of arcane usage. One other point is that emoticons are valuable to help clarify meanings. Sometimes a person uses a bit of sarcasm or makes a joke that might be misunderstood because we have no way to see the facial expressions or body English of posters. Emoticons can help with that missing information. It takes a lot of effort to converse with folks we can't see who come from different cultures or countries.

KurtPerthWA wrote:

Could we please have a poll on who gets frustrated by using multi terminology for basic functions?

See! We need clarification here too! Were you referring to mechanical or biological functions?

Oldies but goodies!

I've noticed the hip kids on here are now referring to mineral based oils as dino oil. Thankfully this term doesn't yet seem to be in popular usage in the UK . But inevitably it'll slowly creep across the Atlantic just like Pulled Pork has, virtually unknown here two or three years ago, now they're putting it in everything!  

The first bit of terminology that needs getting sorted is the black rubbery bits that seperate the road from the wheels will at some point tire, but up until that point they are tyres

My personal bugaboo is drive vs. ride.  As in I ride my scooter ... not drive it.  (think riding vs. driving a horse or in our case, our iron ... er plastic horses).  I drive my pickup truck and car er ... SUV ... er CUV ... er whatever a mid-sized, cross over, tall station wagon like vehicle might be referred to.

The Bern wrote:

The first bit of terminology that needs getting sorted is the black rubbery bits that seperate the road from the wheels will at some point tire, but up until that point they are tyres

Well it took me a few reads (it was eary in the AM the first time) but I finally got it.  

Tim

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

The Bern wrote:

The first bit of terminology that needs getting sorted is the black rubbery bits that seperate the road from the wheels will at some point tire, but up until that point they are tyres

 Well it took me a few reads (it was eary in the AM the first time) but I finally got it.   Tim

I thought I had it but now I'm not sure if Bern was referring to the tire (or tyre as ole Wm. S. Esquire might have penned it), the rim, the wheel, the chip and tar or bitumen bits?

Its mixing up thingymabobs and wotsits that gets me.
Neither is the correct terminology, they should be referred to as oogeeflops (uless they have the left hand thread splonge bracket), in which case they are dodas.
I hope that's cleared that up.

If Petrol is a liquid, and Gas is ,a gas, why do Americans call Petrol Gas? surely it is a liquid until it enters the combustion chamber and mixes with air to form a Gas. Just wondered!

The term "gas" is a shortened form of gasoline, which is "petroleum-derived liquid". So it is much the same as "Petrol" being a shortened term for, ahem, a "petroleum-derived liquid". However because you guys drive on the wrong side of the road the fuel fill cap is on the "wrong" side of the car too and you are forced to purchase "petrol", albeit at a substantial increase in price.  It's all a marketing ploy by Shell, et.al. to bilk you out of your hard earned savings

Tim

Petrol tank on Silverwing is in the middle. The Europeans (continental Europe) drive on the right hand side of the road, because , as it was explained to me, when Swordsmen rode horses most carried the sword on the left hand side ,and when meeting an enemy would need to draw their sword with their right hand, However, Napoleon was left handed so insisted his troops passed on the other side, as the French dominated main land Europe till we stopped them, it became the norm. Car fuel caps can be either side on our cars.

Old Limey wrote:

... snipped ... The Europeans (continental Europe) drive on the right hand side of the road, because , as it was explained to me, when Swordsmen rode horses most carried the sword on the left hand side ,and when meeting an enemy would need to draw their sword with their right hand, However, Napoleon was left handed so insisted his troops passed on the other side, as the French dominated main land Europe till we stopped them, it became the norm.

Love these kinds of tidbits ... very interesting.

Most of the world drives on the right side of the road. That means 'right' means both correct and designates the proper side of the road. As shown in the link below 65% of the world drive on the right side. 90% of the planet's roads miles are right side drive. Look at the map, it's pretty obvious that normal folk drive on the right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic

"Normal folk" You mean all the countries populated by people from mainland Europe. Well then Britain, Japan, Australia and India are not "Normal" according to you. Possibly, American's drive on the right because most of the early immigrants were from Mainland Europe, and the first motor vehicles came from, Mainland Europe. Have you ever driven on the other side of the road? I have, in America and Europe. It just seems strange not to keep to the nearside when driving, but I guess it's what you get used to. Whichever side you Drive or Ride on keep safe eh!

exavid wrote:

 90% of the planet's roads miles are right side drive. Look at the map, it's pretty obvious that normal folk drive on the right.

Is there any truth in the rumour that from September, Ireland will change to driving on the right? Cars will change over on the 1st, trucks on the 2nd!

Digressing from the main subject here's a bit of interesting video about left/right driving.

Probably would be more interesting if I'd remember to attach the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91VM5I01B4U

Why can´t you understand, I told you in plain English:
When I wiggle on the doohickey of my thingamajig then the whatchamacallit makes some funny noises.
So - what is wrong with mah mordor baik?

(sorry I had to, the (AMC) gremlin in the air plane seat behind me told me so)

As you've dug up this long dead topic about trying to use the correct terminology, why do you put 'west of Africa but not too far'? That's bound to cause confusion to some of our North American colleagues.

Aren't you in the Canary Islands, an autonomous community of Spain and one of the further most outposts of the European Union. Which by all accounts we Brits are still part of for another 3 months.

Old Limey, from your last entry, all this LH/RH BS was started none other than that DH Nappoleon, The Jousting knights of days of yore always used LEFT as they were generally Right Handed,while diving the Jousting Stick into the ribs of their adversaries. Left handed Knights were rare as the church decreed them as the devil's brood and had them and their parents burnt at the stake.
Nappyoleon , could not manage to Joust so he banned it. after having it decreed as a left handed sport. when he invaded the rest of Europe he also decreed that all his roads were designed for left handed peoples... But the Anglaise, who didn't like the little bugger decided they would exit from the French / European System and forge ahead blindly keeping to the left.
The colonies of India and OZ followed suit, and the japanese just went along with hoping to sell stuff to India's huge population.
I hope this clears up all the above misconceptions...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

G'day mate, unless he's lurking, Old Limey isn't going to read your post, and there's probably less chance of him answering it.

He's gone 'walkabout' as you Aussies say from this forum. He's mentioned selling his Silver Wing on another, as he now prefers riding his lighter and more practical SYM Cruisym 300 round his vast Lancashire estates.

I believe the Azores are further West but too much up to call them tecincally west of Africa. So you must be right BUT there is also an Island famous  for it´s wine and horrible windy airport what we should not 4get.
... and do not count on the 3 months, remember the Never Ending Story?