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 Try to use the correct terminology

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bigbird
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PostSubject: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:46 am

In reading many posts in the Maintenance section, I and many others get frustrated with descriptions, in particular, engine starting problems.

Some examples are  "engine turns over but won't start", or "engine spins but won't start", or "I press the start switch, engine starts, but stops when I release the switch".

What do these descriptions mean? Who knows? It is very difficult to decipher through these vernacularly challenged posts to even attempt an answer when we have to guess what is actually happening.

Going forward, please try to use these descriptors.

When you turn on the ignition key and press the starter button, you are CRANKING the engine. When you release the starter button and the engine is making its sewing machine like noises and the tachometer indicates that there is spinning of the crankshaft, the engine is said to be RUNNING.

If you use the terms "Crank" and "Run", then there is no room for miscommunication. Please don't use the misleading terms  "Start", "Spin" or "Turn Over". Yes, I'm aware that the electrical device that cranks the engine is called a starter, but the word "Start" is really vague. Thanks to all for reading this.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:13 am

Adding----scooters sometime appeal to people who know little of mechanical things or care, but scooter/bikes are not idiot proof.

Belt drive makes push/bump starts impossible(and I think fuel injection voltage requirements)-----larger displacement scooters do not have kick starters------turn on switch, no juice/lights/dash lights, you probably have dead battery----best solution in US is take battery out and take to Batteries Plus---they are battery experts and have reasonable quality batteries.... and then with strong batteries, scooters do not run or stay running.......but did the owner use "real Gas" or some sort of fuel prep when he parked for winter?

Often bikes that are not in daily use are hard on batteries, so replacement is often necessary in 2 years or so.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:22 am

john grinsel wrote:


Belt drive makes push/bump starts impossible(and I think fuel injection voltage requirements)-----

Push (or pull) starting doesn't even require a battery on some fuel injected engines, particularly 2 strokes. When Arctic Cat introduced EFI on their 2 stroke snowmobile engines, the battery was not needed to even pull start. The magneto provided enough current to energize the EFI. Small fuel injected outboard 2 and 4 stroke engines without electric starting have no battery, yet use EFI.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:53 am

How about SilverWing? I am familiar with my BMW K--75, under 11.5 volts=no go, might go run down steep mountain as engine spins fast to generate electric power.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:57 am

Adding to Prof Bigbird's lexicon primer: how about an agreement on the terms for the drive system? The front pulley is the Variator which Honda calls the Drive Pulley; the rear pulley is the Driven Pulley; the Clutch is attached to the driven pulley, and fits into the Clutch Bell which Honda calls the Clutch Outer. The driven pulley/clutch and clutch bell all mount on the final drive input shaft.

The assembly of the variator, drive belt, driven pulley and clutch acting together are the transmission. While the cluster of gears housed between the clutch bell and the rear wheel is the final drive. The rear wheel fits on the final drive shaft or output shaft.

Tim
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:19 am

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
Adding to Prof Bigbird's lexicon primer:


The prof will be assigning homework.
Sketch all parts that Tim has mentioned, and label them. Test to follow.


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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:22 am

john grinsel wrote:
How about SilverWing?  I am familiar with my BMW K--75, under 11.5 volts=no go,  might go run down steep mountain as engine spins fast to generate electric power.

If you got the Silverwing coasting fast enough downhill, or pulled it behind a tow vehicle, the transmission would directly engage the engine. I base that on the fact that if you kill the engine while coasting at higher speeds, you still get engine braking, which means there is direct hookup. Flipping the kill switch back on instantly has the engine running. You would still need the battery installed. But if the battery were dead, would this work? I think so.
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:48 am

I think the main posts should be pinned; I'll get Colin or one of the others to sort it out as I'm likely to delete everything!
If one or two of the more chatty posts disappear please don't be offended - Terry, Tim and John I suspect you will understand why.  Smile 
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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:08 pm

I think I understand, it's just that UK and North American termanology differs. We say our engine is "Ticking over" when you say at "idle", same as we have Petrol and you have Gas. scratch 
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Colin B
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:59 pm

MikeO wrote:
I think the main posts should be pinned; I'll get Colin or one of the others to sort it out


Thread sticky.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:01 pm

Old Limey wrote:
we have Petrol and you have Gas. scratch 

What, don't the Brits ever have gas?
Must be your low fibre diet.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:02 pm

[quote="bigbird"If you got the Silverwing coasting fast enough downhill, or pulled it behind a tow vehicle, the transmission would directly engage the engine. I base that on the fact that if you kill the engine while coasting at higher speeds, you still get engine braking, which means there is direct hookup. Flipping the kill switch back on instantly has the engine running. You would still need the battery installed. But if the battery were dead, would this work? I think so.[/quote]

If I understand your post correctly, you seem to be saying that the SW can be bump started. Unfortunately, it can't be bump started because of the centrifugal clutch. Once the engine RPMs drop to approx 2000 rpm the clutch shoes disengage from the clutch bell and no amount of coasting speed will re-engage the clutch and allow the engine to restart.

But flipping the kill switch, momentarily, while at speed will kill the engine yet allow the engine to restart immmediately so long as the clutch shoes haven't disengaged.

The clutch bell is directly connected to the rear wheel via the final drive. The clutch is directly connected to the engine via the driven pulley, belt and variator. N'est-ce pas?

Tim
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model28a
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:52 pm

Tim, thank you I wanted to say the same thing but didn't want to type all that.(not feeling well today) I learned this when I road up north to hill county. When coasting downhill you need to blip the throttle to engage the clutch shoes to use the engine to help hold your speed down.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:23 pm

Yes, Tim, I agree. When I had the intermittent loss of power several years back at highway speeds only,  I remember now that my engine only momentarily cut out, not to the point of zero rpm. There was very strong engine braking. I eventually traced the intermittent cut-out to a loose side stand bypass I had made. I beefed it up considerably by using Sumitomo connectors.
So I do stand corrected. If the engine rpm drops below the engagement point of the clutch, the engine is disconnected from the rear wheel until rpm is brought back up to around 2k. Bump starting would be impossible.


Last edited by bigbird on Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dale N.
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:46 pm

bigbird said, "If you use the terms "Crank" and "Run", then there is no room for miscommunication. Please don't use the misleading terms  "Start", "Spin" or "Turn Over".

I know what you mean. I tried "Turning Over" an old V-8 one time and it nearly crushed my chest. Never again!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously though. After reading this thread I now understand why the Wing seemed to coast while coming up to a light or stop sign. Dropping below 2000 rpm disengages the clutch and it coasts.

I learn something new every time I'm on this site. Thank you all for the valuable information I have learned about my Wing!
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ericclapham
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:49 pm

This opens up a big bag of worms on East meets West terminology-again! Personally, I think that Start/Spin or Turnover are perfectly understandable synonyms for Crank or Run. Your definition of "correct " terminology might not be the same as others It is an International forum after all so ,a little forbearance please gentlemen.
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KurtPerthWA
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:55 am

Could we please have a poll on who gets frustrated by using multi terminology for basic functions?
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ericclapham
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:12 am

You say "poteighto' I say "potatto" etc……………..whatever!
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Colin B
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:09 am

The OP made a perfectly valid point. Let us keep to it. Whichever term or word you use to describe a condition please make it quite clear what you mean. We can't see inside your head.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:16 am

There is going to be some confusion, not everyone here has English, American, or Canadian as their mother tongue. Variations exist. Then there are those who have a problem and don't know the correct term. There also are some who lack a bit in grammar or vocabulary. It really shouldn't be all that difficult to ask for elucidation from the perpetrator of arcane usage. One other point is that emoticons are valuable to help clarify meanings. Sometimes a person uses a bit of sarcasm or makes a joke that might be misunderstood because we have no way to see the facial expressions or body English of posters. Emoticons can help with that missing information. It takes a lot of effort to converse with folks we can't see who come from different cultures or countries.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:17 am

KurtPerthWA wrote:
Could we please have a poll on who gets frustrated by using multi terminology for basic functions?
See! We need clarification here too! Were you referring to mechanical or biological functions? Laughing
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:04 am

Oldies but goodies! Wink
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:42 am

I've noticed the hip kids on here are now referring to mineral based oils as dino oil. Thankfully this term doesn't yet seem to be in popular usage in the UK . But inevitably it'll slowly creep across the Atlantic just like Pulled Pork has, virtually unknown here two or three years ago, now they're putting it in everything!  Smile
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:59 am

The first bit of terminology that needs getting sorted is the black rubbery bits that seperate the road from the wheels will at some point tire, but up until that point they are tyres Wink Smile
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sonuvabug
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:46 am

My personal bugaboo is drive vs. ride.  As in I ride my scooter ... not drive it.  (think riding vs. driving a horse or in our case, our iron ... er plastic horses).  I drive my pickup truck and car er ... SUV ... er CUV ... er whatever a mid-sized, cross over, tall station wagon like vehicle might be referred to.
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:21 am

The Bern wrote:
The first bit of terminology that needs getting sorted is the black rubbery bits that seperate the road from the wheels will at some point tire, but up until that point they are tyres Wink Smile

Well it took me a few reads (it was eary in the AM the first time) but I finally got it. Rolling Eyes  Smile

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:41 am

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
The Bern wrote:
The first bit of terminology that needs getting sorted is the black rubbery bits that seperate the road from the wheels will at some point tire, but up until that point they are tyres Wink Smile

 Well it took me a few reads (it was eary in the AM the first time) but I finally got it. Rolling Eyes  Smile Tim

I thought I had it but now I'm not sure if Bern was referring to the tire (or tyre as ole Wm. S. Esquire might have penned it), the rim, the wheel, the chip and tar or bitumen bits? scratch
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:43 am

Its mixing up thingymabobs and wotsits that gets me.
Neither is the correct terminology, they should be referred to as oogeeflops (uless they have the left hand thread splonge bracket), in which case they are dodas.
I hope that's cleared that up.
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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:35 pm

If Petrol is a liquid, and Gas is ,a gas, why do Americans call Petrol Gas? surely it is a liquid until it enters the combustion chamber and mixes with air to form a Gas. Just wondered! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:26 pm

The term "gas" is a shortened form of gasoline, which is "petroleum-derived liquid". So it is much the same as "Petrol" being a shortened term for, ahem, a "petroleum-derived liquid". However because you guys drive on the wrong side of the road the fuel fill cap is on the "wrong" side of the car too and you are forced to purchase "petrol", albeit at a substantial increase in price. Wink  It's all a marketing ploy by Shell, et.al. to bilk you out of your hard earned savings

Tim
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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:48 pm

Petrol tank on Silverwing is in the middle. The Europeans (continental Europe) drive on the right hand side of the road, because , as it was explained to me, when Swordsmen rode horses most carried the sword on the left hand side ,and when meeting an enemy would need to draw their sword with their right hand, However, Napoleon was left handed so insisted his troops passed on the other side, as the French dominated main land Europe till we stopped them, it became the norm. Car fuel caps can be either side on our cars.
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:19 am

Old Limey wrote:
... snipped ... The Europeans (continental Europe) drive on the right hand side of the road, because , as it was explained to me, when Swordsmen rode horses most carried the sword on the left hand side ,and when meeting an enemy would need to draw their sword with their right hand, However, Napoleon was left handed so insisted his troops passed on the other side, as the French dominated main land Europe till we stopped them, it became the norm.

Love these kinds of tidbits ... very interesting.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:06 pm

Most of the world drives on the right side of the road. That means 'right' means both correct and designates the proper side of the road. As shown in the link below 65% of the world drive on the right side. 90% of the planet's roads miles are right side drive. Look at the map, it's pretty obvious that normal folk drive on the right. rabbit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic
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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:21 pm

"Normal folk" You mean all the countries populated by people from mainland Europe. Well then Britain, Japan, Australia and India are not "Normal" according to you. Possibly, American's drive on the right because most of the early immigrants were from Mainland Europe, and the first motor vehicles came from, Mainland Europe. Have you ever driven on the other side of the road? I have, in America and Europe. It just seems strange not to keep to the nearside when driving, but I guess it's what you get used to. Whichever side you Drive or Ride on keep safe eh! Smile
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Winger61
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:23 pm

exavid wrote:
 90% of the planet's roads miles are right side drive. Look at the map, it's pretty obvious that normal folk drive on the right.

Is there any truth in the rumour that from September, Ireland will change to driving on the right? Cars will change over on the 1st, trucks on the 2nd! Laughing
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Try to use the correct terminology   Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:43 pm

Digressing from the main subject here's a bit of interesting video about left/right driving.

Probably would be more interesting if I'd remember to attach the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91VM5I01B4U
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