Removed the J-Costa Variator

Hi All,

Lately my gas mileage has gone to a point that I needed to look at getting it back where it should be. So I removed the J-Costa Variator and reinstalled the stock Honda Variator and took it for a ride and just got back. What a difference the J-Costa in performance. It is going to take a bit of getting used to not having all that get-up and go.

One thing I noticed during my ride was the RPM went down from 6K to 5.5K at speedo speed of 70 Miles an Hour. This alone should give me a little better MPG.

When I pulled the belt cover there was very little belt dust, looked surprisingly clean. Belt wear was hardly noticeable at 28.15 mm.

I'm going to run with it stock for a while and see how I like it and if I get the erg for speed I'll re install the J-Costa.

Have you thought about Dr. Pulley 26gr sliders instead of the stock Honda rollers?

I was out for a ride today and noticed the RPMs while at 70 mph would range between 5100 to 5400 rpm. I never saw it over 5500, let alone 6000. Do you think your pins have worn too much?

I have an '03 with a J Costa. About 11,600 total miles, and about 4,800 miles on the JC.

After reading DennisB's post, I also checked my RPM vs speed this morning on my ride. At 70MPH indicated on the speedo, my tach is showing a consistent 5100rpm. 5500rpm yeilds about 75MPH indicated. Everything except the seat is stock, about 4800 total miles at this point.

80mph @ 6100rpm w/costa

Starting to think it might be the clutch that's giving me the trobble. When I first bought the scooter, it was brand new and one thing I noted was the clutch always started to engage and role the bike at around 2200. Now it dosn't engage until around 2800. Just don't think the clutch is giving me 100% any longer.

What do you think, clutch experts?

I have 36k on my Swing Dennis and have stock cvt. Have only replaced the drive belt for the second time, I think? I just know when i bought it new, rpm's at 80 mph were exactly at 6k. At 16k I was charged for a belt replacement but as time went on, i started to notice an increase in rpm to maintain same speed. Right at 31.5k and ready to have 32k checkup i ordered the stock honda belt thru the dealer and had it ready for the 32k checkup. The rpm's had got up to 6300 to maintain 80mph. after honda did the checkup, i was told my belt was under min. tolerance in width and they were right, but never noticed any difference in the first 16k, kinda makes me wonder if i paid for a belt installation that i never got. I am now back to 6k rpms at 80 mph.

Jim,

Nice thing is, my mpg has generally maintained 50 mpg riding solo or with wife thruout.

Dennis:
If the clutch is slipping, it would definitely affect your gas mileage. Have you looked at the clutch springs? The engine rpms your referenced seem pretty high for those speeds. A slipping clutch could be the culprit.

Looking at the IPB (Illustrated Parts Breakdown), It looks like the springs hold the clutch pads in while resting and then they are forced out by centrifical force.

No matter what variator I use, stock Honda or J-Costa, the RPM's are to high.

DennisB wrote:

Looking at the IPB (Illustrated Parts Breakdown), It looks like the springs hold the clutch pads in while resting and then they are forced out by centrifical force.

No matter what variator I use, stock Honda or J-Costa, the RPM's are to high.

Letus know what the stock vs costa mpg before switching back

Dennis:
If the engine rpms are too high regardless of which variator is installed, then it would seem that the variator is not the issue.

I sure agree with you and Thank you for you help.

I just wish more good people, like you, would give their RPM numbers at 70 MPH and what variator they have installed, sure would help.

Dennis:
I have noticed that my engine rpms at a given speed seem to vary a little. I think this is partially due to the fact that where I live, there are very few (if none) flat places to measure accurately. I am virtually always either going up a little hill or down one. However, I do watch my engine rpms and typically, when I am traveling at 70 mph, my rpms are around 5,200 to 5,500. When I travel around 80 mph, my rpms are around 6,000.

One thing I have noticed is that when my bike is cold, (i.e. in the morning) it seems like my bike keeps running at higher rpms when it should be transiting to lower rpms. It almost feels like the variable pullies are stuck in place. Upon hard acceleration this transition usually occurs from 55 mph to 60 mph. But when it is cold, sometimes it seems like it takes longer for the "gears/pullies" to transition to lower engine rpms. Has anyone else noticed this?

Just ordered a new clutch. Should take a few days to arrive. It will be great to get scooter back in the green.

I'm thinking...This just might be a good chance for a pictorial on changing out the clutch.

DennisB wrote:

Just ordered a new clutch. Should take a few days to arrive. It will be great to get scooter back in the green.

https://www.silverwing600.com/silver-wing-accessories-modifications-f5/malossi-maxi-fly-clutch-t1120.htm#9315

Let us know if you make a clutch tool

One characteristic of EFI engines is they idle quite a bit faster until the engine reaches operating temperature. I've noticed this on my Silverwing as well as my Goldwing, once the SW warms up it drops from an idle of 1500 or so back down to 1200. My GW idles at 1500rpm on a cold start around 1500-1600rpm and drops down to its normal idle of 600rpm once it warms up. I don't imagine this would be a factor when the bike is being ridden with a cold engine but it does make it take longer for the bike to slow down with the throttle closed.

When all my test are done the scooter engine is well warmed. When I place it on the center stand and rev the engine up to 70 MPH on the speedo, the RPM's goes to 5200. That's with no rider or the pounds added by the scooter itself. Just moving the tire at 70 MPH. I think changing the clutch is going to make a big diffrence in the way this scooter works. You never know...I just might see 56 MPG again from the old girl!

I just wish more good people, like you, would give their RPM numbers at 70 MPH and what variator they have installed, sure would help.


Dennis

sorry for late reply
5700 rpm @ indicated 70 mph stock clutch and variator with 28 gr
Dr pulley sliders

DennisB wrote:

I just wish more good people, like you, would give their RPM numbers at 70 MPH and what variator they have installed, sure would help.

I'm a good person -

Both of our bikes are stock (the horror) and I have no idea what the tach reads at 70 mph. Now is that indicated or real on the tach or the speedo or on one of the gps' which by the way don't agree with each other?

The scooter on his mainstand or on the road...

I think the RPM's in function of speed , are the same.

The sliders takes a position ifo rpm's.
They don't see the load.

So the diameter of the drive (and driven) pulley is determinated.

Just theoretical thinking....

Hi All,

Well I found out what the problem was after taking it apart and inspecting the clutch and clutch drive hub.....They are with in Honda specification! I think I did find the culprit tho...It is the J-Costa drive face, It has worn down to the point that I could see and feel the where the belt has worn down the surface. At higher speeds the belt moves to the outer edge of the driver system and stays in this location. The J-Costa drive face has worn down to the point of where the belt slips at a higher RPM causing the motor to work at a higher RPM to manitain the speed. The drive Honda face looks good and has very little ware. Here's a drawing of ware area I found on the J-COSTA drive plate surface.

By the way the clutch is in GREAT shape and the looks brand new. Any one need the new Honda clutch that I bought. Will trade for a new set of 28 gr. sliders.

9K and this J-Costa is ready for the Trash Can.

DennisB wrote:

9K and this J-Costa is ready for the Trash Can.

Wow!! Are you going to contact J-Costa??

Were you running with OEM belt??

Has this happened to anyone else??

Hi Bill,

I bought the scooter new and it had only 2K on it when I installed the J-Costa. Yes, the belt is the same one that came with the scooter new. After spending $280.00 on the thing, I thought it would last a little longer. The pins still have the wear indents showing. The wear on the drive face is around a 1/16 of a inch and thats alot.

DennisB wrote:

The wear on the drive face is around a 1/16 of a inch and thats alot.

I would be curious if J-Costa believes that 1/16" was acceptible for 9,000 miles??

honda_silver wrote:

DennisB wrote:

The wear on the drive face is around a 1/16 of a inch and thats alot.

I would be curious if J-Costa believes that 1/16" was acceptible for 9,000 miles??

I hope that's not a sign that mine will prematurely wear. I wonder if Matt at Scootertrap will/can do anything.

bigbird, It looks like J-Costa needs to look at the material they cast the drive plate from. If your MPG starts to go south, take a look to see if your J-C drive plate is the problem.

DennisB wrote:

bigbird, It looks like J-Costa needs to look at the material they cast the drive plate from. If your MPG starts to go south, take a look to see if your J-C drive plate is the problem.

I will definitely keep an eye on the outer rim that you had diagrammed. Yours is the first that I had ever read of a wear problem on the inner face of the sheath. Any recourse from the retailer, importer, manufacturer?

Now I'm going to have to tear my j costa to inspect

Wow Dennis, that is alarming news. I put my J Costa on at 4,000 miles and will turn 20,000 in a week or two, so I have nearly 16,000 miles on mine. I will have to take a careful look at it next time I have it serviced. Thanks for the heads up. But if you break it down to a cost per mile, it works out to only 0.0175 (a penny and 3/4) per mile. Yes it is a cost, but it also adds a lot of fun factor.
DCC

Dennis, is there a lip at the outer diameter of the pully where the aluminum is worn down????

If not maybe there was a double angle/ slope cut into the pulley at manufacture.

How thick is the outer edge of the pulley. If it did wear a 1/16 in. , there wouldnt be too much meat left out there as I recall.

Just wondering.

Nice diagram .....

MaxB

Hi Max, Yes, there is a very noticeable lip (ledge) about about 3/4" from the OD. I do alot of hi speed freeway riding and the belt rides in this location most of the time. There is NO ware on the opposit Honda drive disc.

DennisB wrote:

Hi Max, Yes, there is a very noticeable lip (ledge) about about 3/4" from the OD. I do alot of hi speed freeway riding and the belt rides in this location most of the time. There is NO ware on the opposit Honda drive disc.

Weird , just weird,

I wonder if you could have it wire weled to fill it back in and then turn it smooth at the same angle again.

The weld wire is usually very hard and should last forever.

It would be nice if you didn't have the wear in the first place .

MaxB ( just thinkin out loud)

MaxB wrote:

I wonder if you could have it wire weled to fill it back in and then turn it smooth at the same angle again.

I concur. A good machine shop should be able to have the pulley face reworked. They build up the surface. Welding is old school. Plasma spray is more common. Then the part goes on a lathe for precision cutting to final specs. Of course you'd have to price this against the cost of a new J. Costa and see if it's worth it. It might be.

I'm just thinking a set of sliders and calling it a day.

Dennis , don't trash it just yet.
I will ask around and see if/what can be done with some machine shops around here. If not too costly ..... I amy be able to help out. It may take a few days to find out. A lot of them around here need the work.

MaxB

Just found Dr. Pulley sliders for $53.00 with $5.00 shipping. Here's the information thread:

http://www.buggypartsnw.com/home?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=386&category_id=32

I purchased a set.

DennisB wrote:

Just found Dr. Pulley sliders for $53.00 with $5.00 shipping. Here's the information thread:

http://www.buggypartsnw.com/home?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=386&category_id=32

I purchased a set.

They have both 26g and 28g (OEM weight) Dr Pulley Sliders ... which weight did you order??

Hi Bill, I got the 28g. I've been reading what I can on the sliders. I measured the weight of the stock Honda rollers and they were about 31.5g. I'm a very careful fellow and I'm thinking of doing a polishing job on my variator ramps so these new sliders work well in their new home.

I weighed the stock ones digitally and they are exactly 28 grams

Your probabley right. The only thing I had to use was a postage scale that just measured oz's in 10's.

Hi All,

Well, the Dr. Pulley sliders showed up and I installed them this morning and went for a test ride. At 70 MPH Indicated the RPM was at 5.1-5.2K as a result of the Sliders installation. That is sure a big jump down form 6K at 70 indicated with the worn J-Costa variator installed.

By the way, I was only getting 40.9 MPG with the J-Costa installed.

Now, in another 4K miles I will need a new belt...But for right now, it's great having my RPM's down.

This ends this topic....Thank You.

DennisB wrote:

Hi All,

Well, the Dr. Pulley sliders showed up and I installed them this morning and went for a test ride. At 70 MPH Indicated the RPM was at 5.1-5.2K as a result of the Sliders installation. That is sure a big jump down form 6K at 70 indicated with the worn J-Costa variator installed.

What was the acceleration like with the 28gr Dr. Pulley as compared to the J. Costa?


Sorry Dennis, I don't know how to delete this once it was posted.

I did a search and found the answer. JeffR had replaced his J. Costa with stock variator and 28gr Dr. Pulley sliders and he commented on the acceleration difference.

Here's the thread in case anyone besides me is interested:

https://www.silverwing600.com/silver-wing-accessories-modifications-f5/i-installed-the-dr-pulley-sliders-t485.htm

DennisB wrote:

This ends this topic....Thank You.

Apparently not...

dspevack wrote:

DennisB wrote:

This ends this topic....Thank You.

Apparently not...

Dan...Your right, that is funny.

Filled the tank up and went for a short ride. More vibration in the scooter at higher speeds, I noticed with the Dr. pulleys. Half the trip was a 70 indicated and the other half was at 40 - 45MPH. The first bar on the gas gauge fell at 51.0 miles, not bad.

bigbird, Alot less vibration with the J-Costa and alot more get-up and go. The scooter seems to be kinda flat now...Very little get up and go. Better gas milage is what I'm shooting for, and it looks like the Dr. Pulleys will give me that.

DennisB wrote:

bigbird, Alot less vibration with the J-Costa and alot more get-up and go. The scooter seems to be kinda flat now...Very little get up and go. Better gas milage is what I'm shooting for, and it looks like the Dr. Pulleys will give me that.

I think that because the J. Costa raises the rpm of the engine, the engine runs closer to its torque peak "sweet spot" of 5000 rpm. The stock front drive causes the engine to run lower in the torque band, where not only does the engine produce less power, but it also vibrates more. That's my theory based on my comparison between stock and J. Costa. I wonder if 26gr sliders would pull the rpm enough to not significantly affect gas mileage while also providing more torque and less vibration?

At least you go what you were looking for Dennis, a 25% decrease in fuel consumption.

hi all from the uk,i have a 2001 sw with 35000 on ,had the j costa on for about 10000 miles went through two sets of pins and after 10000 miles my rpms shot to 7000rpms at 40mph.after pulling her to bits the belt had worn straight through the variator face to a point where it wore the hard surface away completly and was on the soft aliminium.the other original honda plate on the other side was pretty worn too.i think the j costa is a bit much for the sw,i now use dr pulley sliders.

lee wrote:

hi all from the uk,i have a 2001 sw with 35000 on ,had the j costa on for about 10000 miles went through two sets of pins and after 10000 miles my rpms shot to 7000rpms at 40mph.after pulling her to bits the belt had worn straight through the variator face to a point where it wore the hard surface away completly and was on the soft aliminium.the other original honda plate on the other side was pretty worn too.i think the j costa is a bit much for the sw,i now use dr pulley sliders.

2 sets of pins in 10k miles sounds excessive. Are your driving habits extreme? Something sounds fishy.

i do ride to the extreme but i read on here other people are only getting about 6000 miles out of the pins before replacing,after that the revs shoot up.done 14000 miles on the dr pulley sliders now and no issues,the fun factor has gone abit but i need reliability as ive been as far south as the bottom of spain and east to russia,this year planning romania,wish i lived in the states more room to play.

What weight Dr.Pulley sliders are you now using?

went for the 26gr work great for me