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» HELP SILVERWING DOWN
by cello33 Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:52 pm

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 HELP SILVERWING DOWN

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cello33
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PostSubject: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:04 pm

Hi in-mates have a 2002 SW which has 22K miles on the clock , bought in March 2018 (16K miles) and other then changing the oil and filling with fuel has done me proud over summer. Doing about 250 miles a week which was a pleasure until this morning when she would not start.

The symtoms are with the rear brake and ignition on you get the whirr from the fuel priming circuit and the FI light goes out but the battery just turn the motor over and there is no sign of starting.

I took the plugs out and apart from a bit wet they looked fine, I cleaned them up set the gaps to the handbook .0030-34 put them back in and still nothing.

This evening i charged the battery which looks fine and checked the plugs and they both read 4K ohms from the electrode to the tip.

I guess its either fueling or electrics but not sure what to look for next ...i would like to test the fuel pump as thats visible from the plug cover but not sure how to verify its working before i start tearing down the covers to test coils the ECI/blackbox.

I have found a link to a service manual but its in german but can post a link to it if anyone needs it ......hope you guys can assist in getting me on the road once more. Many thanks....
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:38 pm

First thing is see if you have spark from coils. Pull a plug wire insert a good spark plug and rest it against valve cover then crank it over.You will see the spark and hear the snap when plug fires.
Your old plugs me be wet use a new spark plug. It's maybe just flooded with fuel.

IF you have spark spray a little oil in cylinders WD40 anything similar. crank it 2 seconds put in new plugs and open throttle half way or more till it starts.

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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:22 am

I would look for the easiest fix first.
1. Is the side stand up? May need to spray some WD40/cleaner and play with the sidestand.
2. Is the kill switch on the right hand even bar off? May need to spray some WD40 and work switch.
3. Check that the wires are not pinched in the drive belt cover.

Good luck! Hope you find what is wrong!
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:19 am

It's a 2002, with only 16k miles? I'll wager that it has the original battery. Replace the battery.

"Cranks, wont start" is a classic symptom of electile dysfunction. The battery is too weak (even after charging or jumping) to hold a full charge. So what happens is that there is enough of a charge to crank the starter but not enough power the ECM & ignition circuitry at the same time.

Put your volt meter on the battery terminals. You should see 12.5V at rest and 14V-15V when at fast idle. If the battery drops to 11V when cranking there's not enough current left to also power the electrics.

Been there/done that

Tim
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cello33
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:34 pm

Yo, thanks for your wisdom all, I should have said I have tested the plugs and have a blue spark, currently have the silencer off as well as I was making good the aftermarket silencer I have had on her all summer and thought I may have blocked the exhaust but the spark does look weak.

I think cosmic may have something with the battery as even though on the Monday morning it turned the engine over for a few minutes it had been stood for 72 hours and started two times briefly while i was working on the exhaust.

Measuring the voltage it has 12.5 at rest but dips to <10 when attempting to start her. The battery was changed when i bought her for the one off my CBR6 which may be slightly under powered and I dont have much luck with batteries even though i usually use a optimate to top them up over winter.

Will jump start her off the car battery in a bit and see what we get ......thks again
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:56 pm

Caution when jump starting from a car. Make sure you DO NOT have your car running. Your car generates too much amps for the Swing. Will blow fuses.
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:45 pm

Battery, I have an 08 that had a new battery 3 years ago and if leave my camera charger plugged in for a day extra its flattish, this week temperatures have been sub zero and tried on monday to start her, turning over but not firing. Needs a new battery as has been doing this for a few weeks and usually starts after a couple of hours on charge. Looks like it is going to hibernate for a month or 3 and geta new battery.
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cello33
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:52 pm

OK not managed to get the car battery on there but wired the old swing battery in parallel that was reading 12.6v and the newer battery thats reading 12.7 when not under load....sadly that did not solve the problem. I did notice that with the throttle cranked open it backfired once and then nothing.

Having had a duff battery on the swing before I know that the bike should start at the speed the starters turning and the HISS / FI lights are staying unlit so pretty sure i can rule out the battery.

Will try the new plugs when they arrive and then start undressing her to see what i can find whats wrong ith the old girl.

For the record she now has 23,400 mles on the clock but looks like she has done more work then my 99 CBR6 with 18K which looks mint.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:35 pm

I'm still betting it's flooded. Once the cylinders get wet with fuel it reduces the compression.
Does it spin faster than normal? Little back-fire means it's trying to start. Open throttle all the way and try it start it don't stop when it pops a little. Reduce throttle once it starts and try to hold it a 2k RPM. Don't get the wheel spinning to fast.

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GHM-PM
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:05 pm

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:


"Cranks, wont start" is a classic symptom of electile dysfunction.

Found just the answer!!  Get a new Viagra AGM battery should boost it right back up!!! LOL

Sorry Tim, couldn't resist!
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:34 pm

What was the result of the jump start?
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cello33
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:58 pm

No difference, a faster turnover with one backfire , no time tonight but try new plugs tmrw. Cheers Guys
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jodders1
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:26 am

With the age of the bike and ruling out battery, plug spark i would be looking at the fuel system fuel pressure regulator and the in tank fuel filter
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cello33
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:53 pm

Oh dear its serious guys, iridium plugs in and no change!

The old plugs that were taken out seemed to be quite wet but not with fuel! I say not with fuel because with a naked flame on the plug it did not ignite, so it could be a bit of oil on the bores but did not notice i was burning oil and at 23K seems unlikely unless the mileage is not genuine.

Ok so starting to take the bodywork off but strugling with the central engine cover, any ideas please?






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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:39 am

cello33 wrote:


Measuring the voltage it has 12.5 at rest but dips to <10 when attempting to start her. The battery was changed when i bought her for the one off my CBR6 which may be slightly under powered


cello33 wrote:
OK not managed to get the car battery on there but wired the old swing battery in parallel that was reading 12.6v and the newer battery thats reading 12.7 when not under load....sadly that did not solve the problem. I did notice that with the throttle cranked open it backfired once and then nothing.

Having had a duff battery on the swing before I know that the bike should start at the speed the starters turning and the HISS / FI lights are staying unlit so pretty sure i can rule out the battery.


Seems to me the best start point would be a brand new correct rated battery bud.

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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:47 am

cello33 wrote:
Oh dear its serious guys, iridium plugs in and no change!

The old plugs that were taken out seemed to be quite wet but not with fuel! I say not with fuel because with a naked flame on the plug it did not ignite, so it could be a bit of oil on the bores but did not notice i was burning oil and at 23K seems unlikely unless the mileage is not genuine.

Have you fitted the correct rated (& fully charged battery ) to this machine yet ?
These machines do flood easily, take your new plugs out & see if they are wet, I'm guessing they will be, if so you either have not enough battery power to fire the plugs due to the starter motor drawing most of it's energy, or quite possibly contaminated fuel.
Where in the UK are you bud ?
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:10 am

You might want to try the fuel tests as outlined on p 5-81 of the Factory Service Manual (FSM). The pump should be delivering 43 psi to the fuel rail. Fuel volume is checked by disconnecting the (low pressure) return hose from the Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR) to the tank at the tank. Place that hose end in a container, turn the ignition switch ON momentarily to activate the fuel pump: you should get 2 oz of fuel in 10 seconds. 

If inadequate fuel then the FPR should be replaced. If inadequate pressure then either the pump is defective or the fuel filter is clogged.

If all goes well with those tests then, as The Bern mentioned, perhaps the fuel is contaminated.

Oh, another other bit of advice; try starting the scoot with the throttle twisted all the way open. That WOT sends a signal to the ECM which works some kind of magic with the timing and/or EFI delivery.

Remove the coil. Take it somewhere to have it tested. Given the age of the scoot the coil may have deteriorated to the point that it no longer is adequate to the task. Chances are good that our man Siataukreg can supply you with a salvaged one.

Tim
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cello33
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:00 pm

Yo, yes car battery wired in and wow does it spin....but not start. It used to have a duff battery and struggle to turn over but started even at a low crank speed.

Got the top cover off and all looks good so will do the presure test on the FR, i might just pull the hose at the to and stick some spare pipe on for the test.

The bike did a 30mile commute home on the friday, has half a tank of fuel and was started twice briefly on sat before i wheeled her out on Mon morning andshe sounded normal initially when i tried to start her then the crank speed increased slightly and nothing since.

I will do a youtube tmrw vid so you can see / hear the issue but fueling sounds like the culprit given the work so far .....thks.

I am near Worcester not far from Telford but hope I can sort this out as i am missing the freedom of the Wing Smile
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:53 am

Ahh, cool not too far away, if you get into 'big probs' I could nip down & have a look-see. At the moment I'm staying very local as I'm waiting on physio for my neck & shoulders which are giving me a degree of grief.
I've sent you a PM that you may find helpful Wink
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cello33
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:36 pm

Thanks Bern, nice to know I have backup Smile

Well as an update it started on full throttle, quite surprised and i was recording a vid at the time so will post it up in a bit. I then did the fuel line test and it did gve me some fuel but took 30 secs for about 100ml = 4oz and look at the state of it and the residue at the bottom in twi identical coke bottes, the oright one has 100ml water in it for comparison.








So the plan now is to get the tank out drain it of fuel fit a new filter install tank and do the fuel test once again....it may take a while to get the filter but will keep u guys posted on the progress. I may have to clean the injectors and purge the lines of the contaminated fuel but will see...

Thks for your wisdom,comments much apprecited!
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The Bern
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:23 pm

Good man, I get the feeling you're on your way to a happy outcome bud Happy Holiday
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:51 pm

Good thing is it started. Water in fuel can gum things up for sure. Ethanol or bad gas from station.
It's an 2002 fuel filter is a good idea that's 16 years old. There was a discussion about filters a short time ago but I'd use OE for sure. $$ not cheap though.

Clean tank and lines. Injectors have fine mesh screens you can clean them with a spray cleaner But don't try to remove them. Plastic and they will break. Screens stopped anything large from getting into injectors already. After it's running again run some FI injector cleaner for a tank or two.
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cello33
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PostSubject: Re: HELP SILVERWING DOWN   Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:52 pm

Just to say I went out on the Swing today and she performed brilliantly Smile possibly a tad more mid range with the iridium plugs. Still have to apply the injector cleaner to a full tank of fuel but did 50 miles faultlessly.

Thanks once agin for your support, great forum Smile
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