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 Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector

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PostSubject: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 8:06 am

Hello folks, I'm Justin and I have a pile of parts that used to resemble a 2003 Silverwing.

I bought it off craigslist years ago when my wife was deep into metropolitans but wanted something bigger, and then we got divorced, so I never built it. I've dragged it out of my shed and am now in the process of trying to make it useful, again.

I'll search the forums for answers before I start posting "WHY WON'T THIS THING START!?!?!" threads.

But, if you will allow, one simple question:

....why won't this thing start?

just want to make sure I'm tripping all the correct triggers. I have the stand switch in the proper position, the tilt sensor is upright, the parking brake light is lit, I'm pretty sure that all the plugs in the harness are attached to whatever they are supposed to be attached to. I read one thread that suggested the hand brake needed to be held, and I've played with the double contact switch that should be the brake switch, but I don't see any changes in condition.


I get fuel pressure, and the motor will crank until the cows come home, but it will not fire off. I don't seem to be getting spark, and the injectors don't seem to be firing. The FI light comes on and goes away as you would expect, and it'll flash the 12/13 codes when the injectors are unplugged, so I assume the ECU is powered up and running.

Is there a security feature that kills the coil and injectors, but still lets the starter run? Am I not closing or opening a switch properly? Is my ECU fried?

I'll keep digging, so thanks in advance for anything this forum teaches me!

Justin


Last edited by psychoboy on Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 9:38 am

Can't help you with the technical stuff as I'm not mechanically inclined and haven't had my Silver Wing for a full week yet, but did want to welcome you, Justin!

Bash
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 9:47 am

You never mentioned that you have gas...... Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 10:19 am

Welcome to the forum Justin. Thank you for your introduction.

I moved your post to the Silverwing Topics section so that your "Why Wont This Thing Start?" question can be addressed in the proper area rather than your Introduction post be hijacked.

I had a similar "Cranks but wont start" problem and made all the appropriate checks. Even though it would crank strongly for a good while the problem turned out to be the battery. When the battery was cranking there just wasn't enough current to also power the ECM and other electric compomnents --not even if I used a jumper battery. When I installed a fresh new battery magic happened and the scoot started immediately. HTH

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 10:37 am

Thanks for the interest and the move, I'll go make a proper (questionless) intro thread, too.

I'm literally working with a pile of parts, no frame, no fairings. I'm fairly sure I have everything hooked up well, but i'll recheck. I know the coil is normally bolted to the frame, but I've never had a coil that needed a chassis ground to work properly. I have the two ground terminals (the big black wire from the motor and the collection of green wires from the harness) bolted together, but not their normal frame point....since I don't have a frame.

how flickery is the gauge cluster under normal starting? Do the fuel and temp gauges stay strong thruout starting? should they shut down? I'm not sure which mine do at the moment, but that might indicate the weak current scenario you described on yours.


I've looked at a bunch of threads, but I can't find any that suggest that a "crank/no start" is a normal thing for the bike. from what I can tell, either the starter engages or it doesn't (in a properly functioning bike). is there a situation where crank/no start IS the appropriate action of a working bike?
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 12:04 pm



From the owner's manual: cranks but won't start

out of fuel
flooded engine
loose or unconnected spark plug caps
loose battery cables
weak battery


Good luck with your project.
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector    Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 12:40 pm

I would first suggest that you attach a spark plug wire to a good plug(grounded) and see if you are getting spark. Yes a fuel injected
engine has to turn over certin RPM for the engine to start. If it is turning over as you say I would not think you have a problem with any of the saftey switches. If you use another vehicle's battery make sure it is not running. Let us know of your progress. Howard
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 1:07 pm

Hi Yo wrote:
 

  From the owner's manual:    cranks but won't start

  out of fuel
  flooded engine
  loose or unconnected spark plug caps
  loose battery cables
  weak battery


   Good luck with your project.

fuel is good, the pump pressures up, the return line has fuel in it, but the injectors do not spray.

not flooded, since the injectors do not spray

I can feel the ears on the plug wires running down the threads on the plugs, but when I test the plugs against the valve cover bolt, I get no spark

battery cables are tightly clamped in a set of jumper cables.

the battery is able to start my accord



The owners manual assumes a complete bike that has not been fiddled with. mine has been very fiddled with, and is not at all complete. :lol!:
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 1:13 pm

NWSSC wrote:
I would first suggest that you attach a spark plug wire to a good plug(grounded) and see if you are getting spark. Yes a fuel injected
engine has to turn over certin RPM for the engine to start. If it is turning over as you say I would not think you have a problem with any of the saftey switches. If you use another vehicle's battery make sure it is not running. Let us know of your progress.  Howard

I'll pull a plug out of my race car to verify no spark, but these plugs look fine and the odometer only suggests 4500 miles, so they shouldn't be bad from age or use.

The starter seems to be spinning the motor up just fine, I can hear the compression lumping along.

I'm interested about the non-running jumpstart. I first tried starting it on a random battery I had lying around the shop, and it almost coughed a couple times until I finally ran that battery down (still cranked, but the gauges were flashy). I'm now using jumper cables off my runing accord, and I didn't notice the gauges having an issue, but the plugs still aren't sparking and the injectors still aren't flowing.
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 5:03 pm

Pull the ignition coil cover of there is a 25 amp fuse under the connector .mine had a hair line crack,after a boosting that went bad.
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PostSubject: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 7:47 pm

The reason the sugestion was made to attach a spark plug to one of the wires was to check for spark, not checking the spark plugs.
It is possiable to have spark some times and not all the time but rare. Are you using fresh fuel. Not using a battery from a nother vehicle that is not running is to protech the starter from to much amperage.When running a alternator can put any where from 30 t0 100 amps. To much for the S/W starter. Let us know. Howard
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 28, 2015 11:30 pm

I wish I could offer some help but I've never tried running the engine out of the scooter. Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Dontknow
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29, 2015 3:14 am

I've a feeling the mounting bolts for the coil does normally create an electrical connection to the frame (at least it has on bikes that I've had in the past). So try connecting a wire from the bolts to the connection where you've gathered the various ground wires together.
Good luck.
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29, 2015 3:38 am

Hi Psychoboy, it looks like you are going to have fun with that toy you've got there! I have run several engines out of the vehicles they came from but they were real old school engines from Lambrettas!
Having stripped down my Silverwing recently and seen what is in there under the plastics I'm not sure I'd try it!
For what it's worth from my experience the main problem I had was getting good enough earths, I eventually made a basic frame to mount the engines to to keep them rigid and clamped all the earths to that. Of course I had to kick start those old lumps and at least you have the aid of electric starts.
Personally I would separate the starter and run it from a different battery, also have you taken EVERY connector apart and checked for even the slightest sign of corrosion?
GOOD LUCK I will keep watching this thread with interest!
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29, 2015 8:27 am

tinman wrote:
Pull the ignition coil cover of there is a 25 amp fuse under the connector .mine had a hair line crack,after a boosting that went bad.

I've gone thru all the fuses, but i'll check them again. Tho, thinking of the way the harness is laid out, I can't think of a fuse holder that lives near the coil. There's the bigger fuse at the starter relay, and a couple little fuses back by the engine...but I'm drawing a blank on a fuse holder that's not near the back of the bike.

NWSSC wrote:
The reason the sugestion was made to attach a spark plug to one of the wires was to check for spark, not checking the spark plugs.

right. I did that...still no spark. My comment about the SWing's plugs was that there is no reason THEY shouldn't be good, and they are (tested them in the race car).

Quote :
It is possiable to have spark some times and not all the time but rare. Are you using fresh fuel.  Not using a battery from a nother vehicle that is not running is to protech the starter from to much amperage.When running a alternator can put any where from 30 t0 100 amps. To much for the S/W starter. Let us know. Howard

No evidence of spark any time.
yes, fuel is brand new, not that any of it is making it out of the injectors.
the starter seemed to be able to handle it, but my accord's alternator is weak, anyway.

Cookie wrote:
I've a feeling the mounting bolts for the coil does normally create an electrical connection to the frame (at least it has on bikes that I've had in the past). So try connecting a wire from the bolts to the connection where you've gathered the various ground wires together.
Good luck.

did that, still no spark.

HORNBLOWER wrote:
Hi Psychoboy, it looks like you are going to have fun with that toy you've got there! I have run several engines out of the vehicles they came from but they were real old school engines from Lambrettas!
Having stripped down my Silverwing recently and seen what is in there under the plastics I'm not sure I'd try it!
For what it's worth from my experience the main problem I had was getting good enough earths, I eventually made a basic frame to mount the engines to to keep them rigid and clamped all the earths to that. Of course I had to kick start those old lumps and at least you have the aid of electric starts.
Personally I would separate the starter and run it from a different battery, also have you taken EVERY connector apart and checked for even the slightest sign of corrosion?
GOOD LUCK I will keep watching this thread with interest!

There are three grounds that I can find. One is the thick wire coming off the starter mount that grounds the motor to the frame. One is the ring terminal that grounds the harness that is also bolted to the frame. One is the negative battery cable. I have all three of those bolted together and in the jaws of my jumper cables.


I got my injectors back today, so i'll put them back in the harness and start running test starts with the different sensors detached to see if the ECU notices they are missing and throws the proper codes.

I'm still of the opinion that the ECU is failing to send the proper signals to the injectors and coil, but I cannot decide if that is because the ECU is bad, or because it's not seeing something that it wants to see (either a security thing, or a diagnostic thing).
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PostSubject: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark,    Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29, 2015 1:36 pm

I think by this time the opinion agrees that the two problems (no spark and no injectors pluse)are one in the same.On page 19-0 of the service manual a system diagram shows two sencors a CMP sensor and a CKP sensor.May be some one can send you a copy.I believe both send information to the ECM to let it know the engine is turning over and to triger the injectors and the coils.Both of these sensors have to be grounded either through the main wiring harness or other means. It looks like they have a white/yellow color to ground. Howard
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29, 2015 4:35 pm

The fuse is under the rubber  dust cover  .It is not in the fuse box that holds all the fuses for the swing. Looking at the system diagram on page 20 -0  I think It might be the starter relay switch main fuse A under the dust cover . It is separate from the fuse box assembly.
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 29, 2015 9:45 pm

psychoboy wrote:
Hello folks, I'm Justin and I have a pile of parts that used to resemble a 2003 Silverwing.

Is there a security feature that kills the coil and injectors, but still lets the starter run? Am I not closing or opening a switch properly? fried?

I'll keep digging, so thanks in advance for anything this forum teaches me!

Justin

hi buddy, wishing you good luck with your project.  I recently helped a mate to install an Aprilia motorbike engine in a buggy frame and we had the same problem. Modern ECMs rely on many different sensors, some of them simple on/off and others depending on resistance.
We found that our bank angle sensor ( you called it tilt sensor) was faulty and that is exactly what it does. It kills spark and fuel supply when activated (or as in our case faulty), but has no interaction with any relays / switches needed to start the engine.
It took us a long time and a couple of bottles of Bundy rum to methodically test all the sensors to find the culprit.

Wishing you good luck
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 31, 2015 10:11 am

tinman wrote:
The fuse is under the rubber  dust cover  .It is not in the fuse box that holds all the fuses for the swing. Looking at the system diagram on page 20 -0  I think It might be the starter relay switch main fuse A under the dust cover . It is separate from the fuse box assembly.

The only fuse I find under a rubber cover is the normal sized (postage stamp sized) fuse next to the four pin plug and the allen bolts that make up the starter relay circuit.  that fuse is good....as are the rest of them.

gremlin wrote:
hi buddy, wishing you good luck with your project.  I recently helped a mate to install an Aprilia motorbike engine in a buggy frame and we had the same problem. Modern ECMs rely on many different sensors, some of them simple on/off and others depending on resistance.
We found that our bank angle sensor ( you called it tilt sensor) was faulty and that is exactly what it does. It kills spark and fuel supply when activated (or as in our case faulty), but has no interaction with any relays / switches needed to start the engine.
It took us a long time and a couple of bottles of Bundy rum to methodically test all the sensors to find the culprit.

Wishing you good luck

on the SWing, the bank angle sensor is part of the starter circuit. if that is not in proper position, the starter will not crank.
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 31, 2015 10:08 pm

psychoboy you are right, that fuse is good. If the main fuse were bad you would not have power anywhere, no dash lights, fuel pump, starter nothing. And you are right about the bank angle sensor also.
Now I've told you what you already know, I wish I could tell you what you need to know.
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 01, 2015 12:41 pm

It defies obvious logic, but it ran last night.

I unplugged the crank and cam sensors, checked their resistance and continuity to the ECM, and plugged them back in. Cranked it over again, and it chuffed to a start.

Killed it and tried again... another, better start.

hung the exhaust on it, put the drive pulley back on to keep the crank seal bushing in the case, and started it again. every start runs a little better.

now it runs just fine, sounds steady with the muffler off, is nearly silent when the muffler is on.

I mounted the swingarm (no tire) and buttoned up some other bits before I had to go...have not restarted it with the belt and everything in place.


best I can figure is some level of corrosion or pin misalignment on the plug of one of those sensors or the ECM plug. jacking with it fixed the issue, and I just never cranked it long enough to notice a FI code on the cluster.

The fan came on while it was idling, so that system seems to work, but it still got damned hot, so I need to check the water flow and make sure it's not plugged up somewhere. I'm assuming these things don't overheat just sitting still, do they?
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 01, 2015 7:48 pm

applause Good to hear you got it running. Could you read the temp gage? I think my gage usually reads a little above half way.
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 01, 2015 8:55 pm

cheers like model28a, mine just a hair above half on a hot day at idle. I do notice the fan comes on shortly after a stop.
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PostSubject: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector    Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 01, 2015 9:36 pm

I'm sure everyone is glad to here the good news. A person has to look at it as a learning experience and never assume any thing.
Although you herd from a lot of people your feed back was good to here and appreciated. Howard chickendance
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 02, 2015 7:12 am

model28a wrote:
applause Good to hear you got it running. Could you read the temp gage? I think my gage usually reads a little above half way.

Of the little bars on the gauge, I think it lit most of them before I shut it down.

the cluster face is broken and pretty dirty, so I might have misread it. the motor was hot to the touch for a long long time after I shut it down, tho, so I'm guessing what I thought I saw was accurate.
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tinman
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 02, 2015 9:01 am

applause applause applause applause We all learn something to day that we can fine a problem like a loose connection can kill a Swing   . To many pot holes can shake things loose.I hit one so hard it blew my low beam coming home at night.
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exavid
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 03, 2015 10:09 pm

Good to hear your fan is working. My two SWs fans came on fairly quickly when idling at a stop in hot (100+) weather. The temp would drop down to near normal quickly once the fan started.
My GT is odd, I haven't heard the fan start at all but the bike stays below the warning light temperature. My K-1100LT would fire off it's fan at the drop of a hat on a short stop in hot wx.
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Cookie
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 04, 2015 1:49 am

Glad you got it working. It's amazing how taking things apart then putting them together again can often fix things.
Just one thought regarding the 'tilt' switch. This has to be upright when the power is switched on for it to reset itself. Turning it upright with the ignition already on won't work (I dropped my Deaville/NT700 once and it wouldn't start until I'd turned off the ignition and then turned it back on again). You didn't originally connect up the power and then position the tilt switch upright did you? Just a thought.
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psychoboy
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Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector   Cranks but won't start/run. no spark, no injector I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 04, 2015 7:23 am

Cookie wrote:
Glad you got it working. It's amazing how taking things apart then putting them together again can often fix things.
Just one thought regarding the 'tilt' switch. This has to be upright when the power is switched on for it to reset itself. Turning it upright with the ignition already on won't work (I dropped my Deaville/NT700 once and it wouldn't start until I'd turned off the ignition and then turned it back on again). You didn't originally connect up the power and then position the tilt switch upright did you? Just a thought.

I discovered the tilt switch reset early in the troubleshoot. as noted above, the tilt switch is part of the starter circuit. If it is tripped, the starter will not run.
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