Defining Difference between a Scooter and a Motorcycle

I know that this has been discussed before on this forum - but with technology improvements many of the prior noted differences between a MC and a Scoot seem to be disappearing - except for one.

The defining difference - IMHO - is that there is nothing between your legs on a Scoot while there is a lot between your legs on a MC.  The Scoot is like sitting on a 'barstool' while the MC is like sitting on a 'horse'. Having something between your legs helps to get your through corners a bit better and the entire bike seems to be more rigid and stable which is important when turning/cornering - IMHO.  

BTW - I love my SWing and am not giving it up for no-stinken-motorcycle!

Been Riding Motorcycles for 52yrs up to 2010 when back problems meant i could no longer get astride a Motorcycle. Never dreamed of a scooter till then. Bought a Burgman 400 off Ebay and my eyes were opened. It was a motorcycle with a scooter framework. 4mths later traded in my Motorcycle and bought my Silverwing, best riding experiance of my life, would never wish to part with it. My son in law rode a Suzuki Intruder i think it was 1200cc, he had a ride on my Burgman 400. Three months later he traded, and has a Burgman 650. I have now done just over 32,500mls. I agree you need time to adapt your riding technique, and allow for the smaller wheels, but once you get that sorted your set. 

I find bikers who say maxi scooters aren't proper motorcycles because there's nothing between your legs have nothing between their ears either, because usually they haven't ridden one. Then years later when they're a bit creaky, they'll pop up on scooter forums telling everyone their biking history and asking for advice about buying their first maxi scooter.  

Meldrew is my hero.......He tells it like it is.......

When I owned a PC-800 a few folks thought it was a scooter. When I ask why they thought this the reply was one of two things: (1) The enclosed engine or (2) the bulging saddlebag area that somewhat resembled the engine shrouds on a Vespa.

It's been a long time since I found the info, but if I recall correctly the definition is:

A scooter has the engine mounted on the swing-arm.
A motorcycle has the engine mounted to the frame.

The Silverwing has the engine mounted to the frame and classified as a scooter, but a more refined definition is that it is a "step-through-motorcycle".

trouble1100 wrote:

When I owned a PC-800 a few folks thought it was a scooter. When I ask why they thought this the reply was one of two things:  (1) The enclosed engine or (2) the bulging saddlebag area that somewhat resembled the engine shrouds on a Vespa.

That might explain why a maxi-scooter from the "get-go" fellow like me has a liking for motorcycle sport tourers that have loads of plastic fairing like the Pacific Coast, the ST 1300, BMW RT 1200, the Triumph Trophy, etc but no real attraction to cruisers, Harleys and what not.

masscoot wrote:

The Silverwing has the engine mounted to the frame and classified as a scooter, but a more refined definition is that it is a "step-through-motorcycle".

Yep,just a very big version of the C50,which IIRC was officially described as "step-through-motorcycle",which brings me to wondering how many SWing riders had a C50/70/90 in years gone by ? I did  

I bought a Honda C90 in the early Eighties as a cheapo winter commuting hack.  It had the usual Honda windscreen and cheapo evil smelling fibre glass top box. I know all about their long production history and how they plod on forever in countries all over the world, but I can't say I ever enjoyed riding it.

Some local scrote must have had his eye on it as it was stolen from outside my flat one night so my C90 experience was terminated. I can't remember if it was worth claiming for on my insurance but I certainly didn't miss it.

You should have hung on to it Meldrew as they are selling for crazy prices now !!

I've heard that on the Muppets too, I honestly don't see the appeal of them. Maybe those tartan PVC panniers for C90’s are attracting crazy prices too!  

I thought this would have been the defining moment.... Margate and the rocker/Mods in the UK.

The Mods must have gotten really upset when they heard the Rockers had "tanks"

I think the altercation above came about when the Mod Chick asked the Rocker Scrag how to adjust the sidestand without first introducing herself.
        

 silly sod  

As i am fairly new too scooters whats the difference between a maxi scooter and a ordinary scooter?Is it the centre tunnel or the body being a different style [encased].Or something completely different?Also where does the name maxi scoot derive from any ideas people?Questions questions, my old dad said if you do not ask you do not get the answers ha.

Maxi scooters are usually considered 250cc and up. No rules are hard and fast, and will probably change before I post this.

KurtPerthWA wrote:

 

The photo is too much - where did you every find it! I think I am going to print it out and show it to those MC riders that put down my SWing!

Thankyou hiyo, i get the piont now about maxi scooters and scooters .I was not asking about m.c.s as it looks like some thought cheers everyone.

Hi Yo wrote:

 Maxi scooters are usually considered 250cc and up. No rules are hard and fast, and will probably change before I post this.  

IMHO, If one buys a sub-400cc scooter thinking it is going to perform or handle anything like a SWing - it will be a huge disapointment. My definition of a maxi-scooter is a nominal 500cc and up - but I am OK with the 400cc units maybe being included - but nothing below that! For example, the Vespa 300GTS has 12in wheels, 21hp, weighs 325 pounds. It is so much fun in the City but likely not up to the SWing when ranging afar. I had a 325 pound scooter that was a blast and wish I had it still. If I actually lived in San Francisco, I would get a smaller scooter than the SWing as it is a lot to handle on hills and is not so nimble on SF streets, IMHO.

The name maxi-scooter was coined by UK enthusiasts back in the 90’s to differentiate the new breed of 250cc long wheelbase feet forward scooters from the classic compact Vespa and Lambretta type scooters, and had nothing at all to do with engine size.

Also there was no hang ups and embarrassment in the UK about using the word 'maxi' in the name, as isn't associated with a brand of women's sanitary products like it is in the US.  You were calling them superscooters instead, there's even a US forum using that name.

Some of the common differences between motorcycles and scooters:
1. Step through design
2. Smaller wheels
3. Automatic/CVT transmission
4. On-board storage
5. Front and rear brakes mounted on handle bars

Meldrew, I think I got my info from some local scooter clubs featuring mostly Vespas and smaller scooters. (A lot of riding from eating place to drinking place.)   Thank you for clarifying things.

The Helix is often referred to as the first 250cc maxi-scooter, but the Elite had the same 250cc engine and came out one year earlier here in the USA. I guess the long wheelbase and feet forward thing is why the Helix gets the credit. Both of them had the rear brakes mounted on right floorboard.

That's what happened, Honda lengthened the wheelbase of the 250cc Elite or Spacy as it was called outside the US by 14 inches, lowered the seat height, and fitted an integral trunk at the back. They called it the CN 250 Fusion, Helix, and Spazio and riders found out here was a comfortable feet forward scooter capable of touring long distances on.

The Helix was only in the Honda UK range from 1989 to 1991 and had a hefty price tag of £3500 which was really expensive back then for a weird looking 250cc scooter with digital instruments and a boot/trunk. So only a very small number of Helix were sold.

Then they started coming into the country a couple of years later as grey imports and got a bit of a cult following. Owners started writing about these scooters were in a magazine called Motorcycle Sport, and a club for enthusiasts was formed called the Best Feet Forward Motorcycle Club. This was about 1995 and was basically a newsletter with details of owners round the country with a Helix or the more exotic creations of feet forward innovators like the late Malcolm Newell, and Royce Creasey.

I joined the BFF and in 1996 bought my Helix as a new US spec grey import from a Honda dealer in York. I ordered it over the phone and went down on the train to to collect it, and was hooked on this weird looking twist and go scooter within a couple of miles of the 150 mile ride home. I met up with fellow enthusiasts a few times, and attended a couple of Helix rallies in Germany, and I was the only Helix rider out of a couple of dozen scooters and thousands of bikes at the FIM Rally in Falun, Sweden in 1998. The Helix made a great solo tourer and apart from blowing exhaust gaskets occasionally was totally reliable and easy to maintain. I rather stupidly sold mine in 2004, a decision I still regret.  

Thanks for the potted history guys on maxi scooters,it seems everyone got there own ideas on what defines a maxi scooter from a [normal] scoot.Feet forward chaps::lol!:

I think my Helix clone was the most comfortable scooters I've ever ridden. I also the Helix and the Elite are the best scooters for someone to have for motorcycle riders for their first scooters. You still have a foot brake on the right side and you are not going to grab the clutch only to find out you stop at the wrong time. Then when you go to a bigger scooter you know there is no clutch and that left lever is your brake. I worked well for me.

Hi model 28a,i have seen a elite before not in the flesh though so too speak.Never seen a helix:no:

Not sure if it is called a Helix on that side of the pond.   

I've only seen the CN250 badged as the Helix in the UK even on the pre-1992 steel wheel versions, and it was the Helix in all the old magazines and newsletters I binned late last year. I went to a couple of rallies organised by the 'Helix Club Nord-Deutschland', and similar German clubs used Helix in their title as well. I know it was marketed as the CN250 Spazio in Italy and a few made their way as imports into the UK.

As an import it was pretty simple to convert, as a push of a button would change the digital speedo from km/h to MPH. I've no idea if the US version I bought had it's always on headlight converted to dip from right to left, as it had a pretty narrow spread of light however it was adjusted. I never had any trouble with the indicators doubling as running lights at MOT test time either.

Mildrew - Thanks for the interesting historical perspectives on some early Honda scoots!

"For example, the Vespa 300GTS has 12in wheels, 21hp, weighs 325 pounds. It is so much fun in the City but likely not up to the SWing when ranging afar."

http://www.sergeibelski.com/blog/search/?t=vespa+adventures

This guy is in Calgary, Alberta.  He rides his Vespa 300 Super everywhere.  I might respectfully suggest that a machine's suitability for long distance touring is largely a matter of perception...or, stated another way, there is no reason why a GTS 250 or 300 Super, or a Silverwing or a Kymco People 300 GTi or any other reasonably sized, comfortable machine cannot be used for long distance touring.

Jinglebob wrote:

...or, stated another way, there is no reason why a GTS 250 or 300 Super, or a Silverwing or a Kymco People 300 GTi or any other reasonably sized, comfortable machine cannot be used for long distance touring.

I beg to differ IMHO - 300cc scooters can NOT do 600 plus mile rides - they are not very good for LONG distance touring. However, the SWing can do these rides!

Very good, Dimond.  

As I noted above, Sergei Belski is only one example of people who use their 300cc bikes as described.  Over on the scooter section at ADVRider, there are quite a few others who do as well, including CDWise, Klaviator, Cortez and others.  In Europe, which is considerably more scoot-aware than here in the US, people tour on their scooters frequently.  A little research might reveal some other info for you.

I suspect what you mean is that 300cc scooters can't do long distance tours because they lack sufficient power on the interstate, particularly when loaded up.  There may be an element of truth in that, but it depends...the Kymco People 300 GTi is capable of speeds up into the low 90's and handles very well.  I'm, not particularly a Piaggio fan, having owned one which has had many quality control issues, but CDWise has toured all over the US on her BV500 and the BV350 is even better, with equal or better power, much longer maintenance intervals and speeds up to the high 80s.  

It also depends on what you mean by long distance touring...if your picture of that is going straight from point A to point B by interstate, you may be at least partially right...but part of the joy of touring by scooter is staying off the interstates, at least in my mind.  As you correctly noted, the SWing is quite good for touring.  Last year, I did a tour from northern California into central Oregon and Washington on the SWing.  Some of the tour was on interstates...5 in California and 90 in Washington...and the SWing did fine.  I did not, however, enjoy the interstates much, because of the traffic, the speeds, the trucks and so on.  I much preferred secondary highways and surface roads.  In such an environment, the 300cc bikes would have done fine...and they would have been OK on the interstates, at least for short stints, as well.

So, respectfully, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

250's and 300's will cover any sort of distances, however not at the sort of speeds the maxi's can.
(unless they are Chinese, then it would be a problem at any size!)

Saw a guy go round the world on a honda c90 stepthru so i guess its what individuals preferences are.What your comfortable with. Ride safe.

Honda won the Maudes (endurance) Trophy with the C50 & held it for 11 years

Check this out.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C78QdYa3hT0 and search for Postie Bike Challenge, an annual event for charity in OZ

Amazing kurt perth, but they forgot the mail ha.

There was a guy in France who rode an X9 125 for years and toured all over Europe on it for months at a time fully-loaded with camping gear. I have a photo somewhere.

I heard about the Postie Bike challenge, but never saw the video. I love that...I learned to ride a motorbike on my Uncle's Trail 90...forever has a special place in my heart.

Dimond wrote:

The defining difference - IMHO - is that there is nothing between your legs on a Scoot while there is a lot between your legs on a MC.  

Yep, they're called testicals.   

Err...don't you mean testicles.  

Dimond wrote:

Jinglebob wrote:

...or, stated another way, there is no reason why a GTS 250 or 300 Super, or a Silverwing or a Kymco People 300 GTi or any other reasonably sized, comfortable machine cannot be used for long distance touring.

I beg to differ IMHO - 300cc scooters can NOT do 600 plus mile rides - they are not very good for LONG distance touring.  However, the SWing can do these rides!

 
 
Dimond,
 
My wife and I rode our Honda Reflex(es, i, s) around Lake Superior, 1800 miles in 7 days.  We were consumate tourists taking detours and even spending two days in Sault Ste Maire.  The bikes handled well even doing a bit of gravel travel for a trip to an Amethyst mine.  We met several people who were intrigued about the bikes and we had a comfortable and great time on the 'little' 250cc bikes.

Meldrew wrote:

Err...don't you mean testicles.  

Testicals sounds more refined. 

hotwings wrote:

Testicals sounds more refined. 

They're called testicules in French speaking Canada.  

Meldrew wrote:

hotwings wrote:

Testicals sounds more refined. 

They're called testicules in French speaking Canada.  

french speaking Canada, where is that? 

Musr be close to Shropshire

hotwings wrote:

Meldrew wrote:

hotwings wrote:

Testicals sounds more refined. 

They're called testicules in French speaking Canada.  

french speaking Canada, where is that? 

The bits of Canada where 24% of the population speak French as their first language. It's Québécois and and Arcadian French, not the standard French spoken sur le continent.  

So that's why the French have subtitles on Canadian tv programmes in France.

Do they show Canadian TV programmes in France? The only Canadian TV programme I can remember being shown on TV here was way back in the early 1960’s called 'The Forest Rangers'. Everyone spoke English and lived in a place called Medicine Hat.

For those who think smaller scoots are incapable of riding longer distances, here is the story of Ed Otto, who completed the 1995 Iron Butt Rally on a 250 Helix (9300 miles in 11 days): http://www.ironbuttrally.com/IBR/1995.cfm?DocID=3

There is also the story of Wan Lee, who rode a 49cc Honda Ruckus across the United States on an epic 18,000 mile adventure lasting several months. An entire sub-forum has been devoted to him on Total Ruckus: http://totalruckus.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=67    He even appeared in the January 2009 issue of Super Street magazine: http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/130_0901_honda_ruckus_wan_lees/viewall.html