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 Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch

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DennisB
Cosmic_Jumper
sonuvabug
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sonuvabug
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PostSubject: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 08, 2011 10:37 am

A couple of days ago my 2005 SW cranked over slowly a couple of times, then the starter slowed right down ... with no cranking.

I charged the battery (original I suspect) overnight, reinstalled it and same thing happened. I removed the battery and took it to the local auto store where their free battery load test indicated it should be replaced.

Bought a new FTZ-14s battery (a little higher rated than the OEM FTZ-12s) and installed it. Exactly the same physical dimension as the stock battery.

Last night after installing the new battery, the SW fired up like nobody's business. Only ran it for a about 30 seconds then shut it down. This morning, it cranked strong but took about 6 separate tries (about 5 seconds per cranking try/cycle) to get it to start. That was after playing with the throttle wide open, waiting 10 seconds in bewteen cranking cycles etc.

It finally started and I let it warm up for about 1 minute and then i turned it off and tried again. It turned over fine but wouldn't catch. I'm left scratching my head as this is the first time anything like this has happened with it. It usually catches instantaneously.

Thoughts ... or ideas as to what's up? ~ sonuvabug ~
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sonuvabug
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 08, 2011 12:24 pm

Thanks BigBird ... I do have a Factory Service Manual to reference. I don't think it's the gas but that's as good a place to start as any.

I understood if the stator is gone ... then it wouldn't turn over. Am I wrong in thinking this? My gut tells me its related to fuel flow somehow but I'm not sure how to check this.

If it comes down to the electricky bits to trouble shoot ... then I am lost and I guess I'll turn it over the the local dealer to sort out.

I was really hoping for an answer like .... "that happened to me and all you have to do is this ... xxx ... and it'll be all better". cheers

Wishful thinking I guess.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 08, 2011 1:00 pm

You can check the fuel flow by disconnecting the fuel return line at the gas tank. Then putting the return line into a container --one quart/liter would be adequate-- and attempting to start the engine. A measured amount of fuel should collect in the container within a certain amount of time --you'll have to check the Manual for the specifics-- if there isn't enough fuel then you've got a problem in the fuel delivery system.

On another thought; has the weather in your area been excessive wet?...High humidity? If so you may well have tiny cracks in the ignition coil which are shorting out due to moisture and causing an erratic ignition failure.Once you get it running you could always spritz the coil with a spray bottle of water to see if there is any arcing going on. Of course you've got to remove the floor skirt, And doing that test in a dark garage or at night would help too.

WD-40 will help draw the moisture out of the coil. And a silicone spray will seal the coil once it is dry and back up running.

In as much as the coil is located under the right side floor skirt it can be susceptible to damage from curbside road grit and water puddles.

Let us know how you make out. Chances are pretty good that your local dealer won't know beans about your Silverwing but will be all too happy to play "maybe it's this..." with your money.

Hope this helps

Tim

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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 08, 2011 1:04 pm

Hi, If your started your scooter cold the enrichener probly kicked in and more gas was let into your combustion chamber, gas fouling your plugs just enough to make starting again hard to do. You should not need any throttle twisting during start-up, on this scooter...ever. It should start-up without touching the throttle... then let it warm up.
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 08, 2011 5:05 pm

Good suggestion Dennis... I had an experience while waiting to get on the ferry in North Carolina... rode the scoot up to the front of the loading line.. been running like new... killed the engine... waited for the port guy to tell me begin loading... I gave it gas, cranked and cranked.. long line behind me got me frustrated and I know I was giving it more and more throttle. Finally, dawned on me to take my hand off throttle, cranked right up. Never happened again.
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sonuvabug
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Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 09, 2011 12:09 pm

Opalsboy wrote:
Good suggestion Dennis... I had an experience while waiting to get on the ferry in North Carolina... rode the scoot up to the front of the loading line.. been running like new... killed the engine... waited for the port guy to tell me begin loading... I gave it gas, cranked and cranked.. long line behind me got me frustrated and I know I was giving it more and more throttle. Finally, dawned on me to take my hand off throttle, cranked right up. Never happened again.

My expereince was exactly the opposite ... it only started after I opened the throttle wide open while cranking. Go figure!

Anyway, I tried to start my SW at noon yesterday, in the evening and again first thing this morning. All three times it fired up just fine like nothing ever happened.

This is somewhat relieving ... but also somewhat disconcerting because if it misbehaved once ... I'm thinkiing it could happen again and not in a convenient place like my garage.

I'll post here if it misbehaves starting again. ~ sonuvabug ~
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GaryL
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 09, 2011 12:50 pm

My 2 cents... It sounds like cranking with a low battery, not once, but twice, flooded the engine (lots of fuel, but no spark from the weak battery). When the new battery was hooked up, it was still flooded, and when it finally did catch, it was not run long enough to clear the fouling of the plugs. Then all of the extra cranking probabaly flooded it again. Now that it's been run a while, it is back to normal, and IMO it will stay that way. I think, once again, Dennis B had the correct solution. Fuel injected engines do not need ANY throttle to start. True of my cars, the GoldWing, and now the SWing. If it had not been for the battery problem and this just spontaneously happened, I might agree with the other suggestions. However, as a long time troubleshooter, you always look at the last thing that happened as a starting point. cyclops
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 10, 2011 10:42 am

DennisB wrote:
Hi, If your started your scooter cold the enrichener probly kicked in and more gas was let into your combustion chamber, gas fouling your plugs just enough to make starting again hard to do. You should not need any throttle twisting during start-up, on this scooter...ever. It should start-up without touching the throttle... then let it warm up.

Dennis

I've looked all through the Service Manual for a "Cold Start Valve" or cold start "Enrichener" and I can't find anything.

We've got a similar "Cranks strong, but won't start" problem with a SW here in our group, so I'm anxious to find out more about the starting/fuel circuit so that this problem can be dealt with.

Needless to say, but all the local dealers seem to be blithering incompetents when it comes to SW service.

Regards,

Tim
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sonuvabug
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Number of posts : 612
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 10, 2011 11:05 am

GaryL wrote:
My 2 cents... It sounds like cranking with a low battery, not once, but twice, flooded the engine (lots of fuel, but no spark from the weak battery). When the new battery was hooked up, it was still flooded, and when it finally did catch, it was not run long enough to clear the fouling of the plugs. Then all of the extra cranking probabaly flooded it again. Now that it's been run a while, it is back to normal, and IMO it will stay that way. I think, once again, Dennis B had the correct solution. Fuel injected engines do not need ANY throttle to start. True of my cars, the GoldWing, and now the SWing. If it had not been for the battery problem and this just spontaneously happened, I might agree with the other suggestions. However, as a long time troubleshooter, you always look at the last thing that happened as a starting point. cyclops

I think you are spot on Gary. It now starts and runs with no issues. When I finally did get it started with the former (weak) battery, I shut it off after about 10 seconds ... probably not enough time to burn up all the excess fuel I had put into the system.

Thanks all for your advice and support. ~ sonuvabug ~
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MaxB
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 11, 2011 9:17 am

Weak battery, happened to a friend of mine recently. He changed to new battery and no more problem,

My theory is that during cranking , voltage drops below the threshhold that the ECM needs to work at and thus no spark or other controlled functions. (probably 9-10 volts)

MaxB
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Phred501
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PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02, 2012 8:55 pm

I just enetered into this situation a couple days ago. While out scouting cheaper gas (really just an excuse to scoot) I stopped for a Burrito and suddenly for the first time the scoot didn't start on a couple cranks. I owned a Ruckus years back that would clog the inline fuel filters so that's immediately were my mind went. I tried cranking with just a hint of throttle and the still hot engine fired right up. After reading up on fuel filter replacement I don't want to go there and the low battery idea sounded much more palatable. The scoot has started cold no problem the last 2 mornings but once in this ridiculous heat we have been eduring it needs a squirt to reserect. I checked the voltage right after I got home this afternoon it was 12.85 & now 4 hours later it's 12.75. I turn on the ignition, it dips to 12ish, cranking it's headed for 11 & not starting. A hint of throttle it starts right up & voltage is in mid 13's off the alternator. Me thinks it's time for a new battery. Much easier than a fuel filter. Laughing
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DennisB
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Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02, 2012 9:58 pm

Hi Phred501,

What year is your scooter and have you ever replaced the battery on this scooter?


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Phred501
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Phred501

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Location : RollingMeadows,Il
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Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch Empty
PostSubject: Won't start without throttle   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02, 2012 10:38 pm

It's an 02 (4000mi) battery less than a year old. Ruled it out by hooking up (jumpers) to my work truck & symptoms remain. After checking out other posts here my symptoms are pointing to the pressure regulator. It needs throttle to start then runs down the road OK w/no problems. About six weeks ago it just died idling at a light. Now the starting issue is pretty consistent and the idle is not reliable. I ordered the part online. Gonna park the scoot tile I can get the new on in. Thanks for the help!!


Last edited by Phred501 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:38 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : New better info, less baloney)
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Phred501
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Phred501

Number of posts : 10
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Location : RollingMeadows,Il
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Registration date : 2011-08-14

Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch   Cranks Strongly but Really Hard To Catch I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 14, 2012 10:30 pm

Regulator did the trick! ThanksAgain.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v112/Phred501/IMG_0277.jpg


Last edited by Phred501 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:32 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : photo link)
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