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 FJS600 Engined Kart

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revolvor
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PostSubject: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03, 2011 7:21 am

Hello all from the UK.

Been lurking for a while but now the problems are starting.

I recently purchased a FJS600 Silverwing from a reputable breaker, the bike could not be put back on the road although it was mainly panel damaged with a slight buckle to back wheel, I just wanted the engine and all parts to enable it run but the breaker told me to take everything (if I wanted to) apart from the frame as the bike came in a deal with a car and they soley dealt in cars, they had hundreds of them.

So I travelled to Accrington with my son and we and cut the bike to bits using a mechanical hacksaw, the bike had been shunted from the rear, no Registration plate was present but I did find the chassis number and from research it appears to be a 2002 model.

I have mounted the engine into a F1 superkart chassis and did not have to lengthen or widen the chassis - it went in great - what a relief, the engine is now out and chassis ready for full welding and painting.

Now first problem is - I have the ignition but no keys, so would the key in a 2002 have a chip? a mate of mine luckily owns a key shop and owes me a favour for doing his shop fittings but I need some info.

Also I am looking to buy a workshop manual to assist with re-wiring, I guess my best bet is to buy a European FJS manual but also notice that American FCS versions are available, is one better than the other ?

My local Kart track does not allow gearbox/shifter karts but does allow auto's - Ive not told many people "just wait til they get a load of this!"

[wow][/wow]

Thanks Bri.
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toolboxjesse
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03, 2011 7:28 am

I can tell you there is no chip in the 2003 fsc600, so I assume the same for 2002.

Jesse in Atlanta
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03, 2011 8:36 am

revolvor wrote:
Now first problem is - I have the ignition but no keys, so would the key in a 2002 have a chip?

Do you still have the speedometer??
I believe at the bottom below MPH there would be HISS and a bulb.

toolboxjesse wrote:
I can tell you there is no chip in the 2003 fsc600, so I assume the same for 2002.

The chip is from the HISS immobilizer ignition which is only available from the UK and Europe.

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Waspie
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03, 2011 10:25 am

If indeed the engine is from a HISS variant engine you are up the preverbal creek without a paddle me old mate! The idea of the HISS, (Hinda ignition Security System), it imobolises the engine and doesn't allow the ignition system to be bypassed. Preventing theft. Your friend may have the ability to get the necessary codes for a new key but I believe there is something regarding the number of keys that can be coded.

Not having viewed a FSJ manual I am unable to comment of differences, particularly regards engine wiring.

Good luck I hope it doesn't become a nightmare of a solution for you.
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BlackFly
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03, 2011 11:22 am

The European Modell have the HISS, i have myself a 2001 Silver Wing and this have HISS. I think in the UK the european Modell is sold so that it will also have the HISS

Accordng to my manual, if all keys are lost, you need 2 (new) keys and a new ECM.
I think it is easier if you find a key(set), Ignition and ECM from a crashed bike...

btw: do you have an idea which cable triggers the HISS indication or do you have the speedometer? I think you need also this indication...
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rogerscoot
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03, 2011 3:29 pm

As I understand it, the HISS works as follows
Each key has its own code; the ECU has the two original key codes in its memory. Any new key will have a different code to the others. To programm this into the ECU memory, you need to have an original key. That is why it's so difficult. However, I have recently seen somebody on ebay who can program a new key in, it cost about £75, but I don't remember details. Have a look there, you may find a way round it. The ECU is programmed to look for a correct HISS key before it will move on. Good luck
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BlackFly
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03, 2011 4:59 pm

Each key has a transponder with a code. You can programm up to 4 keys to the ECM. The ECM will only start the engine if the code are correct.
If you buy a new key (this key from ebay should be a cutted OEM key according to the codecard) you always have to program it to the ECM! And this is only possible if you have a functional key! If you don't have this, you need one new (!) ECM and 2(!) keys otherwise it is ok if you have an used ECM with a key that is programmed to this ECM.

There are no other possibilities acc to the Service manual!
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revolvor
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03, 2011 6:39 pm

Well - Thanks for the info so far

Regarding the speedo -yes I do have the original unit and intend to fit it.

I guess it would be worth me contacting a UK Honda dealer (perhaps David Silver) to quote the chassis number then attempt to order a replacement key, they should then confirm if it has a chip or not I guess.

Does anyone in the UK also know if it is possible to get the original registration number from the chassis number somehow ? The registration plate had been removed from the bike.

Thanks again
Bri
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rogerscoot
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03, 2011 7:26 pm

I think you've missed the point...even if you got a replacement key,although it is cut the same it cannot have the same code as the original, so it won't work, it has to be programmed into the ecu, which you can't do without an original key.
I came across this, which may help...try him and see.....let us know how you get on
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOBILE-KEY-REMOTE-PROGRAMMING-SERVICE-SOUTH-WEST-UK-/180695606811?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a124c261b
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BlackFly
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 04, 2011 3:11 am

Yes, thats the point! Each key have a unique transponder code. You can not order 2 keys with the same code! You can order from Honda a fitted/cutted key (but you need the key number, Honda don't have a database for this) but you can not order a key with the same transpondercode like the original one.
Each key with its unique transpondercode (and also the Honda replacement key) has to be programmed/registered in the ECM. This is only possible if you have one functional key. If you don't have this, you need a new (!) ECM and 2 (!) keys. The new ECM will only work if it has 2 registered keys programmed and it will automatically register the first 2 keys. Therefor you only have 2 possibilities:
1. Buy a new ECM and buy 2 keys or
2. Buy a used ECM with minimum one registered keys

Your Engine will have the HISS, if you have the speedo you will also see a little light labeled with HISS under the writing km/h (in germany, i think you will find it at the same place).

I also tried to make a 1:1 copy of the key and my key service told me that it is not possible to copy the transpnder code On some keys you can copy the transpondercode to the new key that the ECM thins the new replacementkey is the original one. But for this, you also need one functional key and i asked 2 services, both are not able to copy the transponder code...
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Waspie
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 04, 2011 4:52 am

revolvor wrote:
Does anyone in the UK also know if it is possible to get the original registration number from the chassis number somehow ? The registration plate had been removed from the bike.

Thanks again
Bri

DVLA should be able to supply the info you require.
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BlackFly
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 04, 2011 10:31 am

Take a look to this ebay auction: 320654216534

The seller said he can make a copy and register the key without any functional keys. According to the Honda Service manual this is not possible but Honda wants to sell the parts Wink
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rogerscoot
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 04, 2011 10:50 am

BlackFly wrote:
Take a look to this ebay auction: 320654216534

The seller said he can make a copy and register the key without any functional keys. According to the Honda Service manual this is not possible but Honda wants to sell the parts Wink

This is not a Honda dealer...just some private individual in Poland looking for business. Just shows that technology is moving on....however, its a lot of hassle, so its not like you can just get a key copy and get a vehicle going.
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bikerboy
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 04, 2011 11:15 am

Do you actually want some unknown person in Eastern Europe to have a copy of your vehicle keys and the immobiliser code ???!!!
It's OK in the case of the go-kart but otherwise it must be a big no-no !!
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Coops666
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 04, 2011 12:08 pm

BlackFly wrote:
Take a look to this ebay auction: 320654216534

The seller said he can make a copy and register the key without any functional keys. According to the Honda Service manual this is not possible but Honda wants to sell the parts Wink

A quote on his feedback page:
!! BEWARE !! NO REPLY, NO REFUND,FALSE ADDRESS, FAKE COMPANY, !! BEWARE!!

I'd be very suspicious, unless someone on here can actually vouch for him.
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BlackFly
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 04, 2011 2:07 pm

It is only one negative and many positive replies...
The payment is via Paypal and therefore also secure and you can take your money back in case of problems (no refund? Not possible if you are not too stupid Wink)...
It is also no big security problem because if you have a functional key you can make copies as much as you want and de-register the key from this guy and then they cannot do anything...

I just want to show that there is possibly another possibility than the official way with the 2 new keys and a new ECM which is really expensive! If you can erase/reset the used ECM to a "new" ECM, then you can register new keys without a functional. Possibly they find a way to reset the ECM? Possibly you find a guy in your area who can also do this?
Or this guy in poland have a few (stolen) ECMs and they will send you one of this...
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revolvor
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 07, 2011 6:49 am

Thank you all so much...............

I have just bought a European FSC600 workshop manual and a key with chip for my mate with his fancy 12k coding gadget to have a play with, I have nothing to loose if the ECU goes awol.
After more research into HISS (that I had not heard of until I came here) would be next best option be to buy an American market FSC600 ECU with Ignition and key's ? would this plug straight in ?

Obviously with it being a kart, security is more hassle than it's worth, I have read on some forums that Honda owners with track day bikes have bypassed the HISS system but obviously it's not mentioned in detail due to theft.

My other option would be to try and find the previous owner before it became salvage, I have phoned the DVLC and quoted the chassis number but they would not tell me the original registration plate details.
I suppose I could write to them but would I really gain anything?
Anyway - Thanks for all the help so far, I have welded and painted the chassis now and the engine is bolted in - I am dreading the Electrics dealwithit
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BlackFly
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 07, 2011 7:42 am

Hm, the US ECM should be a solution but i don't know the electrical harness exactly and have no idea whether it fits or not...
The first that i can see on the wiring is the missing HISS on the US-Modell and that they have an additional purge vlv and one additional wire connection on the connector

Everything i can offer from my side is the wiring diagram of an european and a US modell...

And you are for sure not the first one who never heard of HISS and is wondering why the engine not start...
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rogerscoot
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 07, 2011 1:37 pm

Another option may be from another Honda bike. I suspect that the ECU is a standard item across many Honda bikes, with a removable chip that is labelled, in it specific for the Silverwing. Have a look inside the ecu that you have. This chip will have all the engine parameters for ignition settings and fuelling. Note that this chip is not likely to be the memory that holds the key transponder codes. So if you could get a secondhand ecu, keys, ignition barrel and hiss ( as seen on ebay) from another Honda...make sure the ecu has all the same connectors and looks the same and swap that chip you may get somewhere.
Did you get any response from the ebay link I posted? Look up "replacement key services" for other sources of help.
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 19, 2011 5:57 pm

I consider myself fortunate to have stumbled across this exchange because I've been thinking about replacing the OE Chinese CN250 clone engine in my little chinese-built "Go-Kart" (dune buggy) With an FSC600. With the CN250 having been designed with a V-belt transmission for the Honda Helix scooter and the FSC600 (FJS600, etc) having been designed with a V-belt transmission for the Honda Silverwing scooter, it would seem superficially like a pretty easy upgrade repower. Despite them having done innumerable engine swaps, I haven't been able to find anybody in the mini-buggy community who has any insight regarding similarities and dissimilarities between these engines. My hope is that you folks or someone you have rubbed up against in the scooter or F1 superkart communities know about the challenges expected in such a swap.
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revolvor
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17, 2011 3:48 pm

Hello again all,

So the kart is basically finished and I have left the HISS problem until last (hopeing it would go away)

On closer inspection the FJS600 ecu appears to be moulded together as one, I can send it to Motomatrix in the UK with £200 and get the problem sorted with a new chip and keys or should I risk buying this FSC600 ecu with slight case damage on Ebay USA for £50 including postage 300604901730

Obviously it is a kart so the security issues are not required.

Also If I do go for the FSC option would some kind person send me the ecu wiring diagram as I only have the FJS workshop manual.

What would you do ?

Any advice greatfully accepted,

THANKS AGAIN.
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rogerscoot
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17, 2011 7:20 pm

Glad to hear from you again....It will be interesting to hear from our American friends, as I believe they dont have the HISS system on their version, so you may not even need a key unless you want to...a switch would do. you will also need a Silverwing main harness and wiring diagram
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revolvor
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 15, 2012 5:14 am

Hello all,

So I got the ECU matched up to some keys by Motomatrix in the UK.

The temp is fine when running, just have to sort out some wider wheels and tyres and re- fit the bodywork then hopefully out later this week for a track session.

I will post Youtube clip below.

Anyone in the UK got a Power-commander for sale ? Laughing


Last edited by revolvor on Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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tarmacburner2
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 15, 2012 8:10 am

That looks like really good fun. Glad you were able to get it all sorted. Three Sisters at Wigan by any chance?

Cheers,
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revolvor
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 15, 2012 5:49 pm

tarmacburner2 wrote:
That looks like really good fun. Glad you were able to get it all sorted. Three Sisters at Wigan by any chance?

Cheers,
Will be at Tamworth Priory Park circuit mate not Three Sisters
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"Hi Yo"
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 15, 2012 9:48 pm

interest applause I do believe I would be a spectator.
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revolvor
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21, 2012 9:00 am

Well I can tell you - This makes a great kart engine Smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziEqC64PewQ&context=C47ed63fADvjVQa1PpcFPUG1e1Y3A8DzeysuXFdKydkaLDcG48DrA=

The day started off very wet and we only had good sets of slicks, the wets we had were too low profile and the bumper was scraping on acceleration with these on.

First of all we found the gearing was all wrong as we started with a similar roll out to the scooter, max rpm on straight was about 5500 rpm so we changed to the smallest axle sprocket.
It was going fine then in he wet but could not get the power down still.

Then it started to steadily dry and the pace increased.
Now still overgeared but trying to lift the front wheels when launching, then a problem - in the dry the kart was cutting out after a very sharp hairpin time after time, coming to a halt in the same place everytime.

We looked at the kart all seemed fine then took it out again when it was even dryer, now it was cutting out on more bends.

After a bit of thought we realised it was the correctly mounted tilt switch cutting the engine, we were getting lots of G into the corners and it was cutting out because it was similar to a scooter being on it's side.
We had no wiring diagram and the track session had ended for the day.

The tilt switch has now been bypassed and the engine sprocket replaced with a 46 tooth instead of a 52 so more acceleration and higher rpm to come - should be fun lol


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pancho
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21, 2012 10:46 am

COOL !!!!!! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21, 2012 2:38 pm

x


Last edited by bigbird on Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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revolvor
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PostSubject: Re: FJS600 Engined Kart   FJS600 Engined Kart I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 21, 2012 4:55 pm

bigbird wrote:
Can't even see the engine in the poor lighting.

Sorry about that bigbird, it was recorded under a 4 post lift with a Volvo Estate above it, light was poor.

Will get some track clips soon.


Last edited by revolvor on Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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