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Hammy
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PostSubject: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 7:55 pm

Hi folks, I've gone past 12k miles and since my belt snapped at 11.3k, I thought I'd try to see what else I could do while putting on the new OEM belt. This is on my new-to-me 2004 Swing, which might have been sitting in the dealership lot for who knows how long...

I'm thinking I should:
Change my oil
Change my plugs
Clean my K&N air filter
Change the final drive oil

I've already:
Switched to Dr. Pulley sliders

Anything else I should do? When do folks usually change their brake pads (I don't really know how to check if they're worn)?

Also... all the talk about what oil has gotten me a bit turned around. Can someone just help me figure out what weight synthetic oil to get for the oil change, what type oil for the final drive, and what size spark plugs to get (um... do they come in different sizes?)?

Thank you kindly!
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jimjotel
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 8:04 pm

cleaning your air filter this soon may not be needed since the k&n says clean every 50k, lol
12000 mile shopping list 383825
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 8:06 pm

Hi Hammy,

Sounds like your getting ur done!

As far as Oil, Oil Filter, Spark Plugs, and Final drive oil, you'll just need to trust your own best judgement. All the information is out there.
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jimjotel
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 8:08 pm

i've got almost 32k on my Swing Hammy and just had the 4rth rear wheel installed. Everytime the mechanic changes the tires he tells me how my brke pads are doing and they still look great according to him.
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 8:42 pm

Hammy,
Change your oil... simple.... take plug out let drain... catch the spring that is behind plug. You WILL drop it if oil is hot... pay attention to how it goes. Put good oil back in .... there has been a lot of discussion here the last few days about what weight oil is recommended. I think the consensus is that 10w30 or 10w40 will work. Same oil can be used in final drive. That is one of the easiest things to do yourself for your swing. Again, just remove the drain plug, then the top plug , let the oil drain. Fill from the bottom plug to overflow, put top plug in then the bottom.
Changing the plugs is another simple, though a little more difficult thing to do. Main problem is getting to the plugs. You can replace the original with similar plugs if you need to replace them at all. Since you changed the drive belt yourself, I know you can certainly do the simple tasks you asked about. The air filter is another easy one. ALL of these projects have a
pictorial file for you to follow.
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Hammy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 8:55 pm

Thanks Gary... when does one actually change the actual oil filter? I just put in one 3000 miles ago. Also, is there a particular size of spark plug or are they all the same size?
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 9:09 pm

Owners manual.. plugs (standard) CR8EH-9 (NGK)... OR U24FER9 (denso)

OIL FILTER: CHANGE INTERVALS 6,000 miles


Check your brand of spark plug when you pull one out. May be different. I know there are heat ranges to consider so, other brands may cross over to the NGK or DENSO.... I used the NGK.

Hope this helps.



Last edited by Opalsboy on Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Correct spark plug ID....)
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Hammy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 9:12 pm

Thanks Gary. I'm assuming the NKE is the NGK iridium or somesuch? I'll try and find where I can get a CR8EH-9 (geez, you'd hope folks just made things simple and standardized or colorized everything!)...
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 9:13 pm

NGK plugs get gapped at .032-.035"
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 9:44 pm

Yes, you assumed correctly.. sorry about that. Seat is too low and with my tri focals can only bend my neck so high.... Btw... when changing oil.. I just looked at the diagram and just in case you drop something.... the strainer screen goes into hole first female end up .... setting spring over that next.... O-ring next... then the plug. I also noted that you should remove filler plug when draining the oil. I do that, just forgot to mention it earlier.


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Hammy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 9:47 pm

Thanks! This sounds horrible but it'll be the first time I get to check out my Swing's undercarriage...
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 9:57 pm

You have changed a belt out... that is major. I have not done that. I paid a guy to do mine and I watched. Probably pay the guy again the next time. OR I might trailer it to PA and watch you do it. Laughing It is so easy for some that they can take movies of it. Go figure.
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Hammy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 02, 2010 10:14 pm

I'm really not mechanically inclined at all, but after JeffR, Bill, and Tim walked me through it, it actually turned out to be really easy especially with the impact wrench. You just have to make sure you have the right tools, which I didn't but now do! 12000 mile shopping list Icon_lol

What I bought and used:
Nocord Digiwrench
1/4" ratchet and metric deep socket set
Metric hex key set with ball ends

It's really as simple as taking off some bolts, tupperware, and then the aluminum case, and then using the impact wrench to bang off the 17mm nut on the variator (now I know why they call it an impact wrench!). I think it took me about 20 minutes to get everything off, and that's because I kept slapping away mosquitoes and having stuff roll under my butt (I was sitting on the ground to do this)...
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masscoot
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 8:31 am

Opalsboy wrote:
Same oil can be used in final drive. That is one of the easiest things to do yourself for your swing. Again, just remove the drain plug, then the top plug , let the oil drain. Fill from the bottom plug to overflow, put top plug in then the bottom.

Gary this is a method I haven't tried. I use a squeeze bottle with a small diameter hose to fill (final fluid) with. I have an oil change (I always check and change final fluid at the same time) coming soon and will try your method, thanks.
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 8:40 am

Masscoot,

Gary just used the refill method that the top mechanics use at Mercury Outboard Motors to refill the final drive on their outboard motors. Push the oil in from the bottom and let the air come out the top. Gary, I'm glad you mentioned that method.
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edbancro
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 8:41 am

Hammy wrote:
...This is on my new-to-me 2004 Swing, which might have been sitting in the dealership lot for who knows how long...

Anything else I should do?

Maybe a coolant change, not because of the mileage but because of the age (service manual says at least every two years), and a brake fluid change (service manual recommends every 2 years or 12K).
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 8:46 am

Dennis, I wasn't sure where I learned that method. It is not in the book, I just know it worked when I did it before. You are right. I did use that method to add oil to the foot of my outboard when I had one. Masscoot... please use the squeeze bottle when you do this. Those dang oil cans usually don't fit the hole tight enough. Smile
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 9:45 am

x


Last edited by bigbird on Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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crahar
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 9:45 am

Now yall've got me all confused I thought the final drive was the one from the funeral parlor to the bone-yard! 12000 mile shopping list 744535

Just what sort of squeeze bottle do you use, in my mind I see you with an old mustard or ketchup bottle and oil every where. I know there are others out there but not sure what would fit the bill. Is there something with a tube or hose you stick in the bottom hole and use kinda like an old enema bottle which would be held higher than the top hole so your not trying to push the oil uphill? Or is this something a parts house or boat shop would sell?
Craig
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 11:07 am

I use a syringe-type thing to do the final drive fill. It's called 'The MixMizer', holds about 2 oz., and is normally used to mix 2-Stroke fuel. The MixMizer also come with a 4" extension tube. I got it at Pep Boys or Auto Zone for about $5.

I pre-measure the the oil into a clean cup or jar. Then suck it up into the syringe and inject it into the final drive. Then repeat until it's full.

No reason that a ketchup/mustard squeeze bottle wouldn't work either --but you'll need an extension tube too.

After draining the oil from the final drive, and before reinstalling the drain plug, be sure to rotate the rear wheel a few times so that the final drive gears 'push' out the remaining old oil.

When I was servicing outboards I was never too successful in refilling the final drives from the bottom up. Always ended up with too much of a mess -and then had to 'top off' anyway.

I've never had a problem filling my Silverwing final drive from the top using the Mixmizer syringe. Again, rotate the rear wheel a few times so that any potential air pockets are purged before you are sure you've filled the drive.

And oh yeah, I refill the final drive when I have the belt drive cover(s) off. It's a whole lot more accessible that way.

Tim
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thomphoto
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 11:31 am

I use a pump type oil can with a long slender spout that fits right into the top fill hole. It holds 10 oz which is what the rear drive holds. Wally World has them for under $5.
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 11:49 am

Well, My final drive filling tool is not that fancy. I just us a turkey baster $1.00 and a small piece of rubber hose and a short length of metal tube. It works OK, but that walmart, pump type oil can, sure sounds like a winner to me.
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crahar
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 12:32 pm

My better half frowns upon me using her kitchen utensils for other than what they were intended. Also might make the turkey be a little off flavored, so I think a trip to walley world is indicated in the near future.
Craig
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 1:49 pm

Hi All, For some of you guys that don't know what a cheep, turkey baster looks like:

12000 mile shopping list Nylon-turkey-baster

And NO, don't bast your turkey after you use it for final drive scooter oil installation. Just keep it out in the garage with your other scooter tools. They are only a dollar at the Dollar Store.
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masscoot
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 1:50 pm

Mixmizer great item to have around! I use a clear ketchup bottle and a clear extension tube (I think it is 1/4") with a diagonal cut at the tip of the tube so I can insert part of the tube into the hole making a great seal.
12000 mile shopping list 11rfthcytpL._SL500_AA300_
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buddy19520
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 8:50 pm

bigbird wrote:
Not sure how you could fill the final drive from the bottom hole unless the fill nozzle was a very tight fit into the drain hole. Also, every time you had to refill the dispenser, a lot of oil would run back out. I use a pump-type oil can that must be refilled 3 times to transfer the correct amount of oil into the final drive. Seems like overkill and a really messy situation to try and fill from the drain hole rather than the top hole.

If you go to a boating supply store, they sell a fluid pump that screws onto a standard quart size oil bottle that has a tube to fit into the drain hole on an outboard. Oil is pumped in to avoid trapping air inside the gear case. The same thing would probably fit the drain hole on the Honda.

The pump is probably about $10, maybe even cheaper if you can find it at Wally World.
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DennisB
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 9:18 pm

What happens is like when you place a drinking straw in a drink and you place your finger over the end of the straw and then pull the straw out of the drink. The liquid inside the straw does not exit the bottom of the straw until you remove your finger.

With that said.. 12000 mile shopping list 87062

Filling the final final drive through the bottom hole until the oil starts to come out the top hole. Then you install the top threaded plug and then remove the bottom hole filler tube and install that plug. Some small amount of oil will leak out the bottom hole, but not that much.
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 10:15 pm

Thank you Buddy and Dennis... I was beginning to think I was insane doing it that way. The amount of oil lost is actually less that what I lost trying to get it in the top hole.
I went to look for the squeeze bottle I used the last time I changed the oil. I did not find it. Should be somewhere, me and the wife cleaned up a little when I got the new storage building. May not even have it now. I think I bought it at the local parts store for a couple of dollars. Plan to take picture when I need a replacement. My new scoot has 640 miles on it now, so, it will be a while.

FYI
The book gives capacity of .32L (.34 US qt, 0.28 Imp qt). Honestly, it has been quite a while since I did this service. (over a year)... I don't think I had to refill the bottle any. When I do this again, I will give more details of what I do. I did this twice and just did it. Wasn't expecting to report to a forum at the time. Sorry for any confusion. You will get old and on medication some day.
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 11:00 pm

One other tip some may or may not have heard of or used. When you are filling a cavity through a small hole ( like a oil crank case of a scooter or mower) and you don't have funnel small enough. Use a screw driver blade to get oil into hard to reach places. Put the blade next to the oil bottle opening and slowly pour. Oil follows... into hole. Don't try this if hole is above screwdriver.

For small cavity, take a straw from a broom or a similar slim item. Place one end in the hole at an angle, then slowly pour the fluid on the straw and watch it run into the hole If you are adding only small amount of oil, you can use soda straw... lower one end into oil, put finger on top of other end. Remove straw, put lower end into opening and remove top finger. This will let oil enter and allow the air to escape around the straw. Will take longer, but will work. For a large cavity, it is not practical, but it works like magic for small openings. I have used it many times to oil old fans with the little lube opening with spring cap.
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Hammy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 11:05 pm

I think I saw a movie where someone hanging from a ceiling assassinates someone by dripping poison down a thin string into the victim's glass... Um... sorry, mind wandering! I tried to find that oil can thing at Walmart but couldn't find one... nor could I find any motorcycle oil there. Silly question (I've got plenty) but DO we have to use oil that has a picture of a motorcycle on there? I mean, 10W30 is 10W30 right?
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 11:21 pm

Hammy,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_oil

I read this to say "NO". Read up ... I have been using regular Exxon 10w30 in my scoot, but now I am going to do some research.

Here is another rather long report ... .

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm

there are more... my gut feeling is, good oil is good oil. but I am still open to having my mind changed.


Last edited by Opalsboy on Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hammy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 03, 2010 11:27 pm

The article basically says, yes, motorcycle oil and regular car engine oil are different. If there's no JASO-MA thingy on the label, I guess I can't really use it then. Rats -- guess I'll have to buy my oil from a bike shop again...
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GaryL
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 12:48 am

Around here, AutoZone auto parts stores carry motorcycle oil. Probably other large auto parts stores also carry it. It may be more expensive than Wally's, but probably cheaper and more convenient than going to a M/C dealer. Might be worth a look (or a call).
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 4:44 am

I stand to be corrected but I think the business over car and motorcycle oil being different is due to motorcycles having wet clutches.

I doubt as 'pure' engine oil for a Silverwing it matters much if one uses 'car' oil.
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 9:00 am

I read this a couple of years ago ... Amsoil's A Study of
Motorcycle Oils ( http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf )
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thomphoto
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 9:17 am

Silverwing scooters do NOT have a wet clutch like a regular motorcycle, so the research and articles about motorcycle oils actually are irrelevant to them. It won't hurt to use "motorcycle" oil in them, but "auto" oils will do the job just fine at a much more economical price. However, we can argue over "dino oil" and "snythetics".
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 1:01 pm

thomphoto wrote:
Silverwing scooters do NOT have a wet clutch like a regular motorcycle, so the research and articles about motorcycle oils actually are irrelevant to them.

There are more factors then wet clutch, for example (from the document I listed above):

1. Operational Speed - Motorcycles tend to operate at engine speeds significantly higher than automobiles. This places additional stress on engine components, increasing the need for wear protection. It also subjects lubricating oils to higher loading and shear forces. Elevated operating RPMs also promote foaming, which can reduce an oil’s load-carrying ability and accelerate oxidation.

2. Compression Ratios - Motorcycles tend to operate with higher engine compression ratios than automobiles. Higher compression ratios place additional stress on engine components and increase engine operating temperatures. Higher demands are placed on the oil to reduce wear. Elevated operating temperatures also promote thermal degradation of the oil, reducing its life expectancy and increasing the formation of internal engine deposits.

3. Horsepower/ Displacement Density - Motorcycle engines produce nearly twice the horsepower per cubic inch of displacement of automobile engines. This exposes the lubricating oil to higher temperatures and stress.

4. Variable Engine Cooling - In general, automotive applications use a sophisticated water-cooling system to control engine operating temperature. Similar systems can be found in motorcycle applications, but other designs also exist. Many motorcycles are air-cooled or use a combination air/oil design. Though effective, they result in greater fluctuations in operating temperatures, particularly when motorcycles are operated in stop-and-go traffic. Elevated operating temperature promotes oxidation and causes oils to thin, reducing their load carrying ability.

5. Multiple Lubrication Functionality - In automotive applications, engine oils are required to lubricate only the engine. Other automotive assemblies, such as transmissions, have separate fluid reservoirs that contain a lubricant designed specifically for that component. The requirements of that fluid differ significantly from those of automotive engine oil. Many motorcycles have a common sump supplying oil to both the engine and transmission. In such cases, the oil is required to meet the needs of both the engine and the transmission gears. Many motorcycles also incorporate a frictional clutch within the transmission that uses the same oil.

6. Inactivity - Motorcycles are typically used less frequently than automobiles. Whereas automobiles are used on a daily basis, motorcycle use is usually periodic and in many cases seasonal. These extended periods of inactivity place additional stress on motorcycle oils. In these circumstances, rust and acid corrosion protection are of critical concern.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 1:03 pm

x


Last edited by bigbird on Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hammy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 2:05 pm

Big Bird, what brand and type of oil do you use?
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edbancro
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 4:00 pm

honda_silver wrote:
There are more factors then wet clutch, for example:

1. Operational Speed - ...

2. Compression Ratios - ...

3. Horsepower/ Displacement Density - ...

4. Variable Engine Cooling - ...

5. Multiple Lubrication Functionality - ...

6. Inactivity - ...

While I would agree with most of their points in general, many of them won't apply to the SWing:

Regarding points 2 and 3, the compression ratio and hp/L for the SWing are 10.2:1 and about 86 hp/L, respectively. By way of comparison, a base 2010 Civic has 10.5:1 compression and about 78 hp/L (the Si has 11.0:1 and 99 hp/L).

On 4, the cooling system on the SWing is equivalent in design to that of many cars and, from what I've seen and read, seems to do as good a job of keeping the engine temperature in the proper range.

As has been mentioned, point 5 doesn't apply to us, and point 6 simply depends on the rider.

The one that would be of the most concern to us is 1. Our redline (8500) is maybe 1000-2000 rpm higher than a standard small car (base Civic is 6800, although Si is 8000), and our rpm at a given speed is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 rpm higher than that of a small car. However, we're still within the rpm range of a typical car the vast majority of the time... :-/

I'm not disagreeing with the Amsoil study in general or trying to pick on Bill, I'm simply saying that
on the car-motorcycle engine spectrum, it seems that our particular
engine/drive train leans more toward the car side.
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 4:29 pm

I'm not advocating one or the other type of oil here, and I enjoy reading all the technical jargon that's being presented, but in my opinion, it doesn't make diddly difference what kind of oil you use if you change it regularly at 3000 miles or so. Personally, I have used Honda motorcycle oil, dino car oil, and currently I'm using Castrol Full Synthetic 10w40, which I will probably continue to use.
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Hammy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 4:33 pm

Okeedokey... my reasoning is because I burn up a lot of miles on long distance riding and don't wanna be too bogged down with extra cost if I don't need to. Car motor oil is cheaper than motorcycle oil and much more readily available... BUT I don't wanna put something in my bike if it's gonna damage my Swing. I wanna see if I can get her up to 100k miles.
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 6:05 pm

x


Last edited by bigbird on Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 6:13 pm

Hammy wrote:
I wanna see if I can get her up to 100k miles.

Rex Jessup in High Point, NC has over 200,000 miles ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:To1DDhBw1AcJ:silverwing.org/cgi-bin/topic_show.pl%3Ftid%3D4851+200,000+miles+site:silverwing.org&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us )
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Hammy
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 6:15 pm

WOW! I wanna know what HE uses! 12000 mile shopping list Icon_lol Looks like only Honda oil and filters... Considering I just snapped my belt after just 6000 miles of riding and 6 weeks of ownership, maybe I should invest in whatever Honda suggests then... Probably end up paying a premium on that though!
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PostSubject: Re: 12000 mile shopping list   12000 mile shopping list I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 04, 2010 6:44 pm

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