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 Steel frame fatigue cracks

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peterb
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PostSubject: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:27 am

Hello,
Excuse me, if I show a well known problem now. If not, please look at the circled areas on the photos, and check your SW if it has many ten thousands of miles, especially on bumpy roads.
In the lower circles you can see the circular steel tube cracked its complete cross-section. In the upper circles, the rectangle tube has partial crack on its inner side. All cracks seem caused by steel material fatigue obviously, by the long, rough usage and perhaps some construction failure, too.
I solved this problem by welding all cracks and also welding steel triangles there, paint and use hollow section wax, too.


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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:48 am

Thank you for sharing these photos, Peter. There must be some very rough roads in Hungry for those cracks to develop. I'm dure that many of us here will be taking a close look at our frame sections during the next maintenance cycle.

Good luck and please let us know how you get on with the repairs.

Tim
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:58 am

Any particular year this seems to be prevalent ? I'm thinking back to the GL 1800Gold Wings aluminum frame failure problem. Steel frame failure is seldom seem,
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:26 am

peterb wrote:
Hello,
Excuse me, if I show a well known problem now. If not, please look at the circled areas on the photos, and check your SW if it has many ten thousands of miles, especially on bumpy roads.
In the lower circles you can see the circular steel tube cracked its complete cross-section. In the upper circles, the rectangle tube has partial crack on its inner side. All cracks seem caused by steel material fatigue obviously, by the long, rough usage and perhaps some construction failure, too.
I solved this problem by welding all cracks and also welding steel triangles there, paint and use hollow section wax, too.<> <>

Thanks for your information and great photos of the stress cracks shown in your latest post. Having Run into these same problems over the years, I have learned a few things about lasting repairs on these cracks.

Cleaning the areas to be repaired is of the utmost importance, Moving everything possible out of the way, Covering the engine with sheet metal, Sandblasting the work area, Then covering everything with wet rags before the Brazing operation starts.

The best rod I have found is the pre flux MG130 super strength Brass Brazing rod for use on High carbon Steel, So that it can be applied at a low enough temperature so that the steel does not become brittle and crack again in the weld areas.

I warm up the area to be Brazed thoroughly so that I do not cause new stress areas. Keeping the area warm as work progresses is very important. Once I have Brazed all the Cracks I install my Gussetts and Braze them into position, While maintaining the heat on the work area.

Since this Brazing leaves no spatter, All that is required before painting is to wire brush the weld area and wash off with some prep solv before spraying with that aerosol gloss black.

Some bikes that I have Repaired years ago still come in for service or maintance and none have cracked again. Happy motoring lloyd 193.

swing
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Flyingpanman
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:19 pm

lloyd193, interesting information on frame repair but as this forum is Silver Wing related, you do not specify if you have come across this problem on any production year of the model we enjoy.

I want to know if this is a common failure on Silver Wings - especially with the road surfaces we get in the UK!
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:40 pm

Flyingpanman wrote:
lloyd193, interesting information on frame repair but as this forum is Silver Wing related, you do not specify if you have come across this problem on any production year of the model we enjoy.

I want to know if this is a common failure on Silver Wings - especially with the road surfaces we get in the UK!


I have never worked on any UK bikes that I know of, I have never ridden any of your UK roads. I have repaired this problem on many Silverwings, I did not keep records as to the year models, Reflex and Helix, 650 Bergman and other Scooters and Motorcycles. These cracks are stress related more so than Fatigue related, Even though heavy loading does contribute to this problem in some cases. It is easy to put a Thousand pound load on a scooters tires when doubled up and of course bad roads would contribute to this problem. I am aware that this is primarily a Silver wing forum, Thanks for your help! Happy motoring lloyd 193. swing
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:56 pm

I have been a member of various Silverwing forums since 2002. This is the only time that I recall when a cracked frame has been mentioned.

Not, mind you, that frames haven't cracked in the past, but that it has never been reported may speak to a brief ownership cycle for Silverwings. Given the plummeting market for maxi-scooters (here in North America) and that Honda ceased importing them several years ago, they can almost be looked at as a disposible commodity.  Perhaps John Grinsel is prescient in his 50,000 & out mindset.

Let's face it though lads, for many of us this is our ride into the sunset.


Tim
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lloyd193
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:22 pm

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
I have been a member of various Silverwing forums since 2002. This is the only time that I recall when a cracked frame has been mentioned.

Not, mind you, that frames haven't cracked in the past, but that it has never been reported may speak to a brief ownership cycle for Silverwings. Given the plummeting market for maxi-scooters (here in North America) and that Honda ceased importing them several years ago, they can almost be looked at as a disposible commodity.  Perhaps John Grinsel is prescient in his 50,000 & out mindset.

Let's face it though lads, for many of us this is our ride into the sunset.


Tim
More information is available on line concerning cracked scooter frames, Just type into your search engine, Cracked scooter frames. Many scooter owners would be hesitant to post on line that his scooter has a cracked frame. I feel sure he would prefer to sell it to someone and have them later discover that the frame is cracked. Happy motoring lloyd 193.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:02 pm

Wouldn't cracking frames be a safety recall item in or out of warranty?
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DodgetheRog
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:31 pm

I've seen a few cracked frames over the years but I wouldn't say it was a common failure, certainly among more recent models, say the last 20 years. I did look around Google regarding Cracked Scooter Frames - went 4-5 pages in and found virtually no mention at all.

Saying that, a heavy load and/or rough roads will destroy almost anything. Who knows what the previous owner put it through? Thanks, peterb for bringing it to the forum's attention. It's good to be aware of stuff like this.
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peterb
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:48 am

As I know, this 2002 SW has imported from Italy some years before and then used in Hungary, where many roads are terrible. So I think the main problem is the previous owners habit and the rough roads together. Dynamic road stress, heavy load, heavy engine and owner's driving and maintenance habit..., yes, these can be destroying together.

But as I wrote, I think it could be some possible frame construction failure, too. If you look at the 2nd photo, you can see some strengthening on the lower end of the circular tube, so they knew well at Honda, that it's a critical part of the frame.

You can also notice the edge line of strengthening around the tube near the lower end. Maybe the upper crack is very similar to that, because a very straight crack line and not any displacement, as on the left side of my SW on the 2nd photo. First I dismounted only this side plastics, and at superficial first sight I didn't think of any crack problem. I discovered later the bit displaced and not so straight crack line on the right side. And noticed the cracks on the rectangular tubes just before welding. I'm almost sure, that the cracks of the rectangular tubes are results of stress caused by cracked circular tubes, so if you have not problem with the circular ones, you have not any problem.

I had help for the welding, because I have a professional welder colleague with a TIG welding machine, so it was less problematic to do (heat, spatter, etc.), than with traditional MMA welding. Welding of the inner side of tubes needs to take out the intake air box and to cover everything carefully, of course.
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Scootypuff Snr
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:43 am

oldwingguy wrote:
Wouldn't cracking frames be a safety recall item in or out of warranty?

Didn't early Kwasaki ER6 models have a frame crack issue highlighted by some bike mag or other but never went as far as a safety recall as I remember just a "something to look for" when buying second hand
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:14 pm

GL 1800, early frames of aluminium had the cracking issue repaired / replaced under warranty or not.
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GHM-PM
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:41 pm

oldwingguy wrote:
GL 1800, early frames of aluminium had the cracking issue  repaired / replaced under warranty or not.

True story. The aluminum frames were a new thing and cracking WAS an issue. I believe Honda got it corrected by the 2004 model. My 2005 got a clean bill of health.

Never heard or cracking on Silver Wing frames though until this.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:22 pm

You are correct on both counts.
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Flyingpanman
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:29 pm

I've been stripping my Wing down to replace the steering head bearings and a couple of other bits and pieces. Decided to check the frame joints where the fatigue cracks were on the original poster's bike.

Mine was first registered in the UK in 2006 and those joints are different. I'll get the chassis number and some photos of the joints later.

Honda must have recognised the problem because my joints have an extra fillet beefing the whole thing up and extending along the lower tube. Happy to say mine has no problems there.
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peterb
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:11 am

Thank you, it's good to see, that newer bikes have not this problem. Smile
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Flyingpanman
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:12 pm

Okay, I've uploaded a photo to my forum album showing the frame joint left side (right side is mirrored joint). No fatigue/stress crack problems on my 2006.

The OP's 2002 joint is similar, but you can clearly see where they beefed them up.

My VIN is JH2PF01B46K100071, so anything after that will be similar.

http://www.silverwing600.com/gallery/Personal-album-of-Flyingpanman/Frame-joint-left-side-pic_2129.htm
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Vyacheslav
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:01 pm

I also strengthened the frame, My scooter of 2004,



Last edited by Vyacheslav on Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Steel frame fatigue cracks   Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:51 pm

Hello Vyacheslav. Welcome to the forum. Thank you for your post and the photos.

You haven't mentioned the model year of your Silverwing. It would help us if you did tell us the model year of yours so that we could keep track of these frame cracking issues.

BTW it is considered forum courtesy to introduce yourself to the forum in the Introduction section. Russia is a very big place. Where in Russia are you located?

Tim

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