Honda Silver Wing Scooter Forum

Welcome to the home for Honda SilverWing and everyone interested. This is a place to ask questions, share, and learn about the SilverWing and its dedicated riders. Please post an introduction when you join as a sign of Courtesy.
 
HomeCalendarGalleryFAQSearchRegisterLog in
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Latest topics
» Got hit at a stop sign from behind
by exavid Yesterday at 23:35

» Disappointed in high speed hiway travel
by exavid Yesterday at 23:23

» First Canyon Ride on Silver Wing
by Pastor Ron Yesterday at 17:28

» Fuel Pressure Regulator
by codge Yesterday at 16:55

» New windscreen
by kbcmdba Yesterday at 16:26

» About our Paint
by janitorj1 Yesterday at 12:25

» two months since SilverWing traded
by bikehiker Tue 21 Nov 2017, 17:06

» Homemade variator tool
by cliffyk Tue 21 Nov 2017, 16:39

» Dr Pulley sliders
by cliffyk Tue 21 Nov 2017, 13:31

» Fuel gauge anomaly
by cliffyk Tue 21 Nov 2017, 13:21

Navigation
 Portal
 Index
 Memberlist
 Profile
 FAQ
 Search
free forum
 

Share | 
 

 Brake Bleeding Nightmare

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Fri 14 Jul 2017, 09:04

I've just overhauled my rear brake caliper. Soda blasting, new pistons, new seals, new banjo joint washers. Also overhauled the rear master cylinder. Clean up, new piston and seals kit and new banjo joint washers. Now I'm trying to bleed them.

Bought a vacuum pump system which seems to doing the job of sucking the fluid through. Did the front caliper first then the rear. The system has been drained of all fluid so I'm starting with empty lines.

The front one kind of went OK, I think, but the rear one just keeps pouring air bubbles out. The brake lever is offering 'no resistance' at all. I've used half a litre of fluid so far and I would have expected at least some resistance from the lever by now. The only result so far is that the caliper pistons have moved from the fully home position to resting against the pads, but no pressure from the lever.

Does anyone have any experience of this or have any tips or tricks. I don't want to waste any more fluid until I'm sure I'm doing it right.

Back to top Go down
Meldrew
Silver Wing Guru
Silver Wing Guru
avatar

Number of posts : 2749
Location : York, North Yorkshire, England UK
Points : 5370
Registration date : 2010-11-16

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Fri 14 Jul 2017, 09:28

Did you bleed both the upper and the lower valve on the front brake caliper before starting on the rear brake?
Back to top Go down
Jolly Bodger
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Age : 64
Location : Lancashire, UK.
Points : 512
Registration date : 2016-10-05

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Fri 14 Jul 2017, 09:54

After a similar struggle with a Hornet900 I found 'back bleeding' with a large syringe worked for me. If you do try it use a turkey baster to remove fluid from the brake reservoir otherwise it could spill over and of course dont re-use the fluid.
JB
Back to top Go down
lloyd193
Super Scooter Rider
Super Scooter Rider
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Age : 77
Location : Orlando Fl. USA
Points : 412
Registration date : 2017-05-13

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Fri 14 Jul 2017, 10:17

Loosebearing wrote:
I've just overhauled my rear brake caliper. Soda blasting, new pistons, new seals, new banjo joint washers. Also overhauled the rear master cylinder. Clean up, new piston and seals kit and new banjo joint washers. Now I'm trying to bleed them.

Bought a vacuum pump system which seems to doing the job of sucking the fluid through. Did the front caliper first then the rear. The system has been drained of all fluid so I'm starting with empty lines.

The front one kind of went OK, I think, but the rear one just keeps pouring air bubbles out. The brake lever is offering 'no resistance' at all. I've used half a litre of fluid so far and I would have expected at least some resistance from the lever by now. The only result so far is that the caliper pistons have moved from the fully home position to resting against the pads, but no pressure from the lever.

Does anyone have any experience of this or have any tips or tricks. I don't want to waste any more fluid until I'm sure I'm doing it right.

Since air is a lighter fluid than other liquids it tends to remain on the surface, It does not like to flow down. Rig up a support for your IV appearing devise so that your resevoir is higher than your master cylinders. Your clear tube line should fit the caliper bleeders securely. Fill your IV reservoir with sufficient fluid so that air is never allowed to enter your down tube. Remove the tops of your master cylinders so that you can see the levels.

Open the bleed screw you have attached the down line to, I find starting at the rear works best. Allow fluid to flow from your IV reservoir backward into your rear reservoir, Slowly working the brake lever as the fluid back flows removing the air from the system.

Do not allow the level in the master cylinder to overflow, Remove the excess fluid as you progress.

Repeat this procedure on all bleed screws front and rear until you are sure that all air has been removed and you have hard levers.

Brake fluid is available in Quart containers or larger, Use DOT 4 or 5 Do not use cheap 3 or bargain fluid. Happy motoring lloyd 193. swing

Back to top Go down
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Fri 14 Jul 2017, 11:50

Thanks guys,

Meldrew, I didn't bleed the upper nipple as I thought that the front brake is a completley separate line. Is this right?

Jolly Bodger, I think 'black bleeding' will be my next attempt but I'm concerned about air being sucked through the threads of the bleed screw 'into' the system ??

These are things I've picked up from surfing the subject. Of course not much of it is generic. It's a minefield out there
Back to top Go down
Murf
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 43
Location : NW Florida
Points : 263
Registration date : 2017-04-19

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Fri 14 Jul 2017, 16:12

I've never gone wrong with going to auto parts store, they sell a little bottle with a magnet attached with hoses that attach to your bleeder nipple. Just keep adding fluid to the upper reservoirs until the little bottle is full.
Back to top Go down
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Fri 14 Jul 2017, 16:41

Wow, that sounds like a magic trick !

I'll start googling the web right away
Back to top Go down
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Fri 14 Jul 2017, 16:48

BTW, lloyd193,

I didn't quite get your procedure but I'm trying to use a vacuum. Is your method gravity fed or pressurized by a compressed air supply?
Back to top Go down
Jolly Bodger
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Age : 64
Location : Lancashire, UK.
Points : 512
Registration date : 2016-10-05

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Fri 14 Jul 2017, 17:55

I didn't have any problem with air leaking past the bleed nipple but you could always put a little smear of copper grease on the threads before you start.
JB
Back to top Go down
lloyd193
Super Scooter Rider
Super Scooter Rider
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Age : 77
Location : Orlando Fl. USA
Points : 412
Registration date : 2017-05-13

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Fri 14 Jul 2017, 19:35

Loosebearing wrote:
BTW, lloyd193,

I didn't quite get your procedure but I'm trying to use a vacuum. Is your method gravity fed or pressurized by a compressed air supply?

Gravity feed like an IV in a hospital, From the bottom up so that all air in the system is forced up into the master cylinders and out of the Calipers, lines and proportioning valves. Happy motoring lloyd 193. swing
Back to top Go down
Sidewinder Pilot
Maxi-Scooter Rider
Maxi-Scooter Rider
avatar

Number of posts : 143
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1068
Registration date : 2015-05-21

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Fri 14 Jul 2017, 20:46

Just a little clarification on fluid types.....Honda spec is DOT 4 (DOT 3 is obsolete)
DOT 5 is Silicon based, and is NOT compatible with DOT 4 systems or fluid.

HOWEVER, there is a new DOT 5.1 fluid that is compatible.
It also has a higher boiling point than either DOT 4 or 5!
Back to top Go down
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Sat 15 Jul 2017, 02:46

The gravity feed system is interesting, I'll give it some thought.

I'm gonna have a another attempt today with my vacuum system. I'll put some copper grease on the nipple threads too, just in case.

I'm sticking with DOT4 fluid. Seems to be the obvious choice.

Thanks all, I'll update later
Back to top Go down
phils a winger
Maxi-Scooter Rider
Maxi-Scooter Rider
avatar

Number of posts : 139
Location : Lanark, UK
Points : 1335
Registration date : 2014-09-27

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Sat 15 Jul 2017, 05:46

What ive found is tying the brake lever to the handlebar overnight helps get stubborn air out of the lines and restores a lever pressure.Sounds like black magic but its worked on at least 5 different scooter and bike brake overhauls
Back to top Go down
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Mon 17 Jul 2017, 14:32

Well folks, I give in.

The bike is going to a garage to have the brakes bled. I figured that if they can't get any joy then I have a problem.

It's going in on Thursday so let's see. I'll keep you posted. I don't know about you but I'm curious !
Back to top Go down
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Sat 22 Jul 2017, 09:21

Well, the garage has done it. It was straight forward in the end, I guess I was a bit impatient. There's a little too much lever travel for my liking but I'll try the overnight lever tie to see if it improves things and then rig up the IV system for the future. Next job: the front brake. Will it be a dream or another nightmare?
Back to top Go down
Cosmic_Jumper
Site Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 2426
Age : 74
Location : damn near Philadelphia, PA
Points : 5879
Registration date : 2009-06-12

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Sat 22 Jul 2017, 09:58

FWIW, The rear brake lever has more travel (feels a bit spongier) than the front brake. The reason being that the left lever also must travel far enough to activate the start switch circuit.

After all you've been through to sort the rear brake the front brake should be easy peasy.
Back to top Go down
lloyd193
Super Scooter Rider
Super Scooter Rider
avatar

Number of posts : 200
Age : 77
Location : Orlando Fl. USA
Points : 412
Registration date : 2017-05-13

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Sat 22 Jul 2017, 10:45

Loosebearing wrote:
Well, the garage has done it. It was straight forward in the end, I guess I was a bit impatient. There's a little too much lever travel for my liking but I'll try the overnight lever tie to see if it improves things and then rig up the IV system for the future. Next job: the front brake. Will it be a dream or another nightmare?

Now that you have hopefully gotten all the air out of your rear brake. If you gravity feed thru Both front bleeder valves, One at the time. All the air will be forced up into your front master cylinder and out of the system.

Be sure that you use sufficient fluid so that you have removed all the old fluid, Do not allow that master cylinder to overflow. Happy motoring lloyd193. swing
Back to top Go down
NWSSC
Site Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 419
Age : 80
Location : Mt Prospect IL 30 miles west of Chicago
Points : 3294
Registration date : 2010-03-03

PostSubject: Brake Bleeding Nightmare Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:04 am    Sat 22 Jul 2017, 12:39

I arrived back in town to late on this one. Hopefully you have your problem solved. After buying the same brake bleeder you purchased and having the same problem I tied the levers down with good success and suggested it here.You are right the bleeder screw threads allow air to be drawn in on some vehicles. One more suggestion,after doing a lot of disk brake work on the older Vetts I would suggest never to open up the complete system all at the same time. It can be very time consuming to bleed the complete system. Howard
Back to top Go down
http://www.northwestsuburbanscooterclub.com/
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Tue 25 Jul 2017, 14:10

Thanks all,

Thanks for your comments and wise words. The rear brake is biting better now so less pressure on the lever but if I had to pull up at high speed?......mmmmm?

Meanwhile, it's time to get some miles clocked up before winter......then, the front brake....... Neutral

Back to top Go down
Sidewinder Pilot
Maxi-Scooter Rider
Maxi-Scooter Rider
avatar

Number of posts : 143
Location : Ocala, FL
Points : 1068
Registration date : 2015-05-21

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Tue 25 Jul 2017, 22:05

With all this talk of bleeding brakes I decided it was time for mine too.
Complete flush and fill.

I bought a vacuum bleeder from harbor freight, $21 and a coupon got it to 17 bucks!

That, and a $4 bottle of DOT4 and I was ready...

I started with the L/H side, I suctioned off the old fluid from the reservoir and filled to the top.
Next, connected suction line to the lower bleed valve and pumped the vac pump, opened the bleeder.
I continued adding fluid and pumping the vac pump till I got completely clear fluid in the collector. Then moved to the rear caliper and repeated.
With both bleeders tight I repeatedly pumped the rear brake lever for a couple of minutes.  
I repeated the process to remove any remaining air.
The front brake was the same procedure, but only one valve.

When I test rode it, both brakes were flawless!

Total time was about a half hour, but without the vacuum bleeder it would have taken half the night!
Back to top Go down
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Wed 26 Jul 2017, 12:39

I have a feeling that refilling the system without draining it may present less problems.

As I had removed the rear caliper the system had to be dry (well, as dry as possible!). I expected lots of air to come out while bleeding but after 500ml of fluid and half an hour with no result I suspected something was wrong. I never did figure out what.

I am going to re-bleed the system now that it's full. I'm going to try the old one-way tube and depressing the brake lever to about half travel only. Let's see what happens....
Back to top Go down
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Pics of the Nightmare   Sat 29 Jul 2017, 12:15



First I loosened the sliding bolt as this can be awkward with the caliper off the bike.



Then I disconnected the fluid journal.....



And rested it in a jar



Then I took the bracket to swing arm bolts out



Then the pad retaining pin



Here is the slide bolt.



The pads had seen better days



Pistons not looking good either.

These are the only pictures I took but I hope it gives an insight for other DIYers
Back to top Go down
vmaximus
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 99
Age : 64
Location : Nottinghamshire England
Points : 2541
Registration date : 2011-04-15

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Sat 29 Jul 2017, 17:14

To stop air leaking into the system and before you try to bleed the brakes remove the bleed nipples and wrap PTFE tape around the treads of the bleed nipples , this will stop air leaking when you try either the pump or vacuum method. When I bled my brakes the front bled easily but the back was time consuming, wrapping PTFE tape around the threads certainly helped but still took quite a bit of time and used quite a lot of brake fluid to completely remove all the air from the rear caliper. By the way I used a vacuum bleeder coupled to the compressor to bleed all brakes on the Silverwing and my Sym 400i with success but it failed miserably bleeding the front brake on my 81 Virago and had to resort to operating the front lever slack the tighten the nipple until all the air was removed. Pud
Back to top Go down
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Mon 31 Jul 2017, 12:27

Interesting insight vmaximus.

I wonder if I should take a degree in Hydraulics and get to the bottom of this thing. It's strange how different bikes have different behaviour, even when the bits we're dealing with are essentially all the same.

I haven't tried to bleed the rear brake since the shop got it working, I'm almost scared but curious.
Back to top Go down
GLBHOAG
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider
avatar

Number of posts : 5
Location : Tandragee
Points : 733
Registration date : 2015-11-26

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Tue 29 Aug 2017, 02:43

Can someone tell me which bleed nipple I need to loosen on my front brake calliper for bleeding my front brake ? There is two and I'm not sure which one to bleed from.
Thanks in advance
Neale
Back to top Go down
Loosebearing
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider


Number of posts : 74
Location : East Sussex UK
Points : 498
Registration date : 2016-10-01

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Tue 29 Aug 2017, 11:21

I think I read somewhere here on the forum that the upper bleed nipple is for the front brake lever and the lower one is connected to the back brake lever.

If you're bleeding just your front brake then it's the upper one.

And yeah...where is Tandrgee?
Back to top Go down
GLBHOAG
Scooter Rider
Scooter Rider
avatar

Number of posts : 5
Location : Tandragee
Points : 733
Registration date : 2015-11-26

PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   Tue 29 Aug 2017, 11:54

Thank you very much Loosebearing your advise is much appreciated.
By the Way Tandragee is in N Ireland .


Last edited by GLBHOAG on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 12:01; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Brake Bleeding Nightmare   

Back to top Go down
 
Brake Bleeding Nightmare
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Proper brake bleeding procedure
» I Need Help With The Brake Bleeding
» Brake bleeding .
» Brake Bleeding
» Brake Bleeding - Vacuume Pump DIY

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Honda Silver Wing Scooter Forum :: Honda Silver Wing :: Maintenance, Tips and Hints-
Jump to: