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 rear wheel locked up

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Wilson
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PostSubject: rear wheel locked up   Mon 06 Feb 2017, 15:27

all was well I parked up on the side stand left it for a week then tried to move it and rear wheel locked up, the handbrake is not on. so could be a problem with brakes. Question is could the drive train seize? I only got this bike a couple of weeks ago with 26k and full service history, it was running well when I parked it up. Any ideas? cheers
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Mon 06 Feb 2017, 16:26

Probably brake pads locked to disk......lots of road salt? My first try would be to put bike on centerstand try to break wheel loose by hand, otherwise try bleeder nipple/nut to relieve some pressure. then no luck try Honda dealer.

Total drive line seizure quite uncommon
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Modernman1953
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Mon 06 Feb 2017, 19:48

The parking brake on? On the right, under the front fairing. Check your owner's manual.
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Wed 08 Feb 2017, 16:20

If its just the rear then it is likely to be pads stuck on, handbrake can stick on uk bikes even if not used. Remove silencer and you will be able to remove and re-furbish. Mine had been sticking and had not noticed.
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Wilson
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Wed 08 Feb 2017, 23:08

thank you all for the feedback, I will look for a strong friend to help me move this bike sideways from the wall so I can work on the right side. I guess it would not be a good idea to try and free the wheel up by power drive?
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gilesmdavis
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Thu 09 Feb 2017, 04:13

Not sure if it's the same thing but this week I have found my Wing feels like the brake is on for the first five minutes of riding.

I'm riding it every day but after a few hours parked it feels gummed up, then something releases and the rear spins freely.

I wonder if it's something to do with the colder weather - feels like the drive train has become sticky, like the oil has thickened then it warms up?
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Thu 09 Feb 2017, 10:14

gilesmdavis wrote:
<>I have found my Wing feels like the brake is on for the first five minutes of riding.<>
I wonder if it's something to do with the colder weather - feels like the drive train has become sticky, like the oil has thickened then it warms up?

Both the FSM and Owners Manual specify using the same motor oil in the rear gear gear box as is used in the engine. There shouldn't be any "sticky" gears.

I strongly suspect either a sticking brake caliper or sticking parking brake pads.

Maybe you could remove the muffler (silencer) at the end of the day and manually check the rear wheel rotation and calipers the next morning. The calipers are not at all difficult to remove --two 12mm bolts IIRC. Err, maybe 15mm). And if either the brake or parking caliper are seized to the rotor you've found the problem.

If you find that the hydraulic caliper (pistons) is the culprit it is not that difficult or expensive to refurbish. There are many YouTube videos demonstrating the process.

Well that's my 2¢.

Tim
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gilesmdavis
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Thu 09 Feb 2017, 10:16

I can't help but think you are right. I'll disassemble and lube the parking brake over the weekend and see if anything is going on down there. I don't use it that much and the cable has been sticky in the past.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Thu 09 Feb 2017, 10:39

gilesmdavis wrote:
I can't help but think you are right. I'll disassemble and lube the parking brake over the weekend and see if anything is going on down there. I don't use it that much and the cable has been sticky in the past.

On my previous Silverwing the parking brake mechanism and/or the cable stuck so frequently that I bodged together a bracket & spring (similar to the Burgman) attached to the rear most parking caliper mount to "encourage" that caliper arm to release.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Thu 09 Feb 2017, 10:57

I think it is a difference in riding conditions, use---UK and Europe as opposed to North American use.

Scooters are tools in UK/Europe and ridden year around...lots of road salt. North America they are toys and usually put away in winter.

I remember last time I lived and rode in Europe----always had to take caliphers apart, clean pins and coat with very light coat of grease..on the pins and do this several times per winter---Honda CB500S, same with MZETS250, both of these bikes had drum rear brakes as I recall, so no trouble in rear

My own SilverWing sees very little salt right now----but washing bike, squirting out brake dust doesn't seem to hurt anything---garden hose
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NWSSC
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Fri 10 Feb 2017, 01:26

The type of environment can defiantly cause different drive ability symptoms but I would be more inclined to believe the caliper pistons are sticking. If the rear wheel does not turn freely after the scooter has been setting for a while I would suggest parking using the center stand and if the rear wheel is difficult to turn loosen the caliper attachment bolts enough to rock the caliper and see if that allows the rear wheel to turn freely.If it does the pistons are sticking. Let us know. If the brake fluid has not been chainged I would suggest doing this as preventative maintenace.  Howard
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Wilson
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Fri 10 Feb 2017, 14:54

thanks to you guys, very good feedback, hoping a friend can help me move the bike out tomorrow. cheers
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Fri 10 Feb 2017, 15:28

Wilson provided the engine fires up ok chances are it'll just be a sticky caliper due to road salt.
Just try to ride forward a normal, chances are the pads will unstick themselves from the disk.
If the wheel is still dragging the it's brake cleaning time. Get some brakecleaner from your local bike shop and give everything a good squirt. If that don't do it let us know and we'll talk you through a caliper clean for which you'll need an hour or two, some beer and a nice warm shed.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Fri 10 Feb 2017, 22:20

I'd be more suspicious of the brake cable. There's not all that much spring pressure to pull the cable back after releasing the hand brake so it's not unlikely it's stuck especially if the brake was left on for a length of time. I don't know if that cable housing is plastic lined or not. In a wet climate it might be worth having a shop make up one with a lining. That pretty well reduces the problem of corrosion sticking if indeed that's the problem here.
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vmaximus
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PostSubject: Reaar wheel locked up   Sat 11 Feb 2017, 07:56

Wilson, I won't harm anything if you try to move the scooter using the engine power it may free a binding brake caliper or you can try the old trick of giving the caliper a few sharp taps with a rubber mallet to free it.
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Wilson
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Sun 12 Feb 2017, 07:42

finally got the bike on the stand away from the wall, the parking brake is free and the rear brake is full on, the bike is outside and its bitterly cold, I will now try the sharp tap method of vmaximus cheers
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NWSSC
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up    Sun 12 Feb 2017, 12:04

Went to the bike show this Friday and took the opportunity to address this question to some of the people at Honda. For the most part I received the Deer in the head lights look. Back a number of years General Motors and others changed the seal material (firmer material)on the caliper pistons to pull the pistons back a few thousands to prevent drag and help fuel mileage per tank full. Because of the age I do not believe the S/W has this feature. If the piston would retract every time the brakes were released it would help alleviate this concern. Howard
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Sun 12 Feb 2017, 13:05

Did you get it sorted Wilson?
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Sun 12 Feb 2017, 13:28

might be a full caliper strip once off the bike, smacking with a large hammer, preferably rubber mallet, could be the only option. Try and clamp the hose to make bleeding easier. last resort though as the dust seal grooves are fragile and i had to replace my front caliper because of this. Once the pistons and seals are out make sure the grooves are cleaned out and new seals installed. Good luck with bleeding, linked brakes are a nightmare, at least if clamped you should only have rear to bleed, remember the pad pin is screwed in.
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Wilson
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Sun 12 Feb 2017, 17:56

the disc looks worn and wonder if this dragging is a feature of connected brakes which i have no previous experience. Never experienced this problem on previous bikes or cars. The brakes have eased with the tapping method, Ill take the brake of its mounts tomorrow to see if I can do anything without taking it apart cheers
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Sun 12 Feb 2017, 18:11

IMHO the linked system has little to nothing to do with it, many many years of that style system on both G'Wings and S'Wings without major problems. But crud making them hang up, dirty pins sticking pistons because of crud and oxidation can do it as well as failing rubber brake lines.
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vmaximus
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PostSubject: rear wheel locked up   Mon 13 Feb 2017, 07:21

Glad the gentle persuasion method worked, I have had to replace the brake seals on every scooter that I've owned at some point or another and did not have a problem bleeding the linked system on the Silverwing. I have just checked both my scooters and they both have lips on the edge of the disc but last time that I checked they were well within the wear tolerance's. Once you have removed the caliper bolts some sideways movement back and forth generally moves the piston back enough to remove it over the wear ridge and further examination can be done. I know its not the right weather for working on anything but good luck and keep us posted on your findings. Pud.
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Wilson
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Mon 13 Feb 2017, 08:09

hi pud, I notices amongst multiple taps, brake on tap tap, etc, freed it up a lot but discovered written on the disk min 5mm, on checking I have 4mm, which was a surprised as it just passed the MOT with no advisories. the dealer I bought it from sold it with a new MOT so I did not check this out myself.

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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Mon 13 Feb 2017, 09:30

Given that 80+% braking is on the front you might want to have a look at that front rotor as well.

Tim
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Mon 13 Feb 2017, 13:31

Goldwings have a similar problem with locking brakes. It's almost always because the brake caliper gets corroded on its mounts. The caliper has to move side to side to even the pressure on the pads. There are two types of brakes on bikes, those with a solidly mounted caliper and a disk that can move slightly side to side on 'spools' ala BMW. The other type is with a solidly mounted disk and a moveable caliper.
The weak point in the Honda caliper mounting is where the pins go through the caliper. Often they become corroded by water and road gunk that gets past the little rubber boots. The only cure is to remove the caliper, clean up all it's parts and reassemble with a good coating of water resistant grease. Normal axle grease doesn't last long. In my old shop I used to lubricate the caliper pins and sleeves with boat trailer bearing grease, it's designed to resist water.
It's pretty easy to check for a stuck caliper because it one is frozen one brake pad will be quite a bit thinner than the other. When the brakes operate normally there is the same pressure on both pads and they wear evenly, if the caliper is stuck it will usually cause the inner pad to be noticeably thinner than the outer one.
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Wilson
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Mon 20 Feb 2017, 14:57

finally the weather was warm and dry enough to free the brake calliper free of its mounts and force it pass the lip on the disk, the pin was rusty and the pistons both corroded one seized. the pin screw head is badly worn and a driver does not grip, I scraped off the rust from the pin and scraped the corrosion off the pistons and used a wood clamp to free off the seized piston and put the thing back, two weeks standing and the battery didn't have the power to start, so removed the battery and put it on charge. I see online the 2 pistons and seals for £37 and a pin £5. Do you think this would be enough replacement ? the pads look OK although I will need to replace the disk before next mot
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Mon 20 Feb 2017, 15:18

Assuming that the piston seals were reasonably functional then replacing two new pistons and seals should do the trick. Be sure to clean the caliper bores too. A small brake cylinder hone and a power drill should do the trick here. If you are desperate enough then you might resort to using a strip of fine (#600 or higher) grit emery cloth slipped into a cotter pin and chucked in that power drill to serve in place of a cyliner hone.

Regarding the lips on the brake rotor; couldn't you remove the caliper, fire up the scoot and use a flat file to "lathe" off the edge while the wheel was turning?. It's a bodge job for sure but it might make do until you source a new rotor. My 2¢

Tim
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: rear wheel locked up   Mon 20 Feb 2017, 16:23

when replacing the pin dont forget the outer cover, screw in with a flat screwdriver. How bad are the pistons, have you taken them right out yet, if so the problem is usually the ring grooves for the seals that get all full of crud, clean these out well with new seals and should be ok. Get plenty of fluid for bleeding as well.
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