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 Regulator rectifier upgrade

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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Thu 01 Dec 2016, 02:08

So for kicks I was learning myself on why a mosfet based regulator is better than the old school scr ones like we have on our bikes.   In researching I found out that now the mosfet ones are old school!

The new hotness is the SH847 (50a) and Sh775 (35a) regulator which is a series regulator.   This style actually turns off the alternator when it's not needed instead of just shunting current to ground.   This mean that the stator isn't running at full tilt all the time which lead to cooler operation and longer life.

Soooo I ordered a sh775. Since Max charge is 30 amps the 847 will be overkill.   The install will be simple.   Do I need it. No.  But it will give added peace of mind knowing that my charging circuit isnt running at 100% all the time and let me swap out lights to led etc knowing that the extra current isn't being used to beat up my rr
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Thu 01 Dec 2016, 02:20

Oh, the one i got was a used Polaris sh775. From a 2014 model and it only cost $40.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Thu 01 Dec 2016, 08:27

Okay, so is this Polaris mosfet RR a direct replacement? Where is it going to be mounted? Photos...Show & Tell. Wiring schematics...

Given that this is an international forum; we all benefit from shared information.

Desperate bodgers need to know

Tim
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Thu 01 Dec 2016, 21:46

It's not a completely direct replacment. The Honda rr has 8 wires. 3 from the stator 2 positive and 2 negative to battery and a voltage sense wire.

The sh775 has the 3 stator wires a positive and a negative for the battery. The sense wire is not needed for that type of regulator abs can be left unhooked. Shindigen plug harnesses are available online to connect to the sh775. The bolting patterns are the same.

The sh775 is not a mosfet based shunt regulator. It is a series regulator which has the advantage of actually being able to turn the charging on and off quickly to regulate voltage. This lets the charging system not have to run full tilt all the time.

I'll take some pics when I get it and install it.
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Thu 01 Dec 2016, 21:47

Oh and the regulator has several Polaris part numbers. They can be found by searching for Polaris sh775
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Fri 02 Dec 2016, 06:40

Why change something that in its standard honda form, works well.? 80,000 miles of SilverWing experience tells me standard parts work well.
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Fri 02 Dec 2016, 07:13

Hehe I was wondering how long it would take you to chime in:)

Same old answer John, I love to tinker.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Mon 05 Dec 2016, 23:01

Kennylxix wrote:
It's not a completely direct replacment.   The Honda rr has 8 wires.  3 from the stator 2 positive and 2 negative to battery and a voltage sense wire.

The sh775 has the 3 stator wires a positive and a negative for the battery.   The sense wire is not needed for that type of regulator abs can be left unhooked.   Shindigen plug harnesses are available online to connect to the sh775. The bolting patterns are the same.

The sh775 is not a mosfet based shunt regulator.   It is a series regulator which has the advantage of actually being able to turn the charging on and off quickly to regulate voltage. This lets the charging system not have to run full tilt all the time.

So the OEM R/R has three (Yellow) wires coming from the Stator, and 5 additional wires. Of those 5 wires two Red wires join and go to the battery hot side and two Green wires join and go to ground. That leaves the 5th wire which is Blue and feeds the 15 amp fuse (fuse E) which then becomes Red/Blue and feeds the Ignition/Fuel Pump/Start circuit.

So which of these wires is the "sense wire...and can be left unhooked"?

Tim
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Mon 05 Dec 2016, 23:14

The blue wire doesn't feed the 15 amp fuse. It is fed by it. It then splits off to go feed ignition things one way and goes to the rr as a sense wire the other. Tge blue wire can be left disconnected from the rr.
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Mon 05 Dec 2016, 23:15

As a matter of fact it has to be left off the new rr because there is no place for it to go. The series (and MOSFET) rrs dont use the sense wire.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Tue 06 Dec 2016, 10:10

Okay, thanks for that explanation. Evidentally I was "seeing" that wiring diagram assbackwards.

I'm looking forward to your follow-up once you've done the upgrade. 

Is that Yellow terminal configuration "universal" or will some kind of an adapter, or bodge, be needed to connect the OEM yellow plug to the SH775 ?

Tim
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Tue 06 Dec 2016, 10:27

It's not universal but the shindigen regulators all use the same 2 connectors which I have coming as well so it's just a matter of clipping the old connectors and soldering the wires to the pins for the new ones and putting them together.  It'll end up looking completely factory
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Tue 06 Dec 2016, 11:48

Ooo, clipping off the OEM yellow-wire plug end? Dibs on the clipped plug. Um, Please.

Tim
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Tue 06 Dec 2016, 13:31

Let me think about it. I usually like to keep things like that in case I want to switch back.
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Tue 06 Dec 2016, 14:04

I was curious about what the purpose of the sense wire was so I did some research. Apparently on scr shunt type regulators the regulation process can be slow to react to changes in demand (voltage sags or spikes). Having an 12v reference signal coming in gives the rr a "clean" picture of the voltage so it can react more quickly.

Apparently MOSFET driven rr and series rr both react quickly enough that its not necessity. For that matter most scr based rr dont have the sense wire either.

Note I am not an electronics expert so take the previous with a grain of salt:)
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Sun 11 Dec 2016, 23:10

So several Google sources indicate that the Shindigen SH689BB R/R is interchangeable with the Silverwing R/R. Do you know what the difference between a SH775 and a SH689 might be?
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Sun 11 Dec 2016, 23:23

The sh698 is basically the same rr that's already in the wing. Shindigen has a lot of part numbers for basically the same technology.

The sh775 is the most modern type of rr abd is completely different in how it works
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Sidewinder Pilot
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Mon 12 Dec 2016, 01:13

I like the brand name, It sounds like a new medication in some TV ad!

Ask your Doctor if Shindigen is right for you

Before using this medication, tell your doctor or pharmacist your medical history, especially of: liver disease, kidney disease, lung disease (such as pulmonary fibrosis), alcohol use, suppressed immune system, blood cell/bone marrow disorders, stomach/intestinal diseases (such as peptic ulcer, ulcerative colitis), any active infection (including chickenpox or recent exposure to it), folic acid deficiency.
Shindigen can make you more likely to get infections or may worsen any current infections. Therefore, wash your hands well to prevent the spread of infection. Avoid contact with people who have infections that may spread to others (such as chickenpox, measles, flu). Consult your doctor if you have been exposed to an infection or for more details.
Do not have immunizations/vaccinations without the consent of your doctor. Avoid contact with people who have recently received live vaccines (such as flu vaccine inhaled through the nose).
To lower the chance of getting cut, bruised, or injured, use caution with sharp objects like razors and nail cutters, and avoid activities such as contact sports.
This drug may make you dizzy or drowsy. Do not drive, use machinery, or do any activity that requires alertness until you are sure you can perform such activities safely. Avoid alcoholic beverages.
Before having surgery, tell your doctor or dentist about all the products you use (including prescription drugs, nonprescription drugs, and herbal products).
This medication may make you more sensitive to the sun. Avoid prolonged sun exposure, tanning booths, and sunlamps. Use a sunscreen and wear protective clothing when outdoors.
Shindigen must not be used during pregnancy. It may harm an unborn baby. It is important to prevent pregnancy during and after treatment with Shindigen. Therefore, males and females must use reliable forms of birth control (such as condoms, birth control pills) during treatment. Males should continue to use birth control for at least 3 months after the end of treatment. Females should continue to use birth control for at least 1 menstrual cycle after the end of treatment. If you become pregnant or think you may be pregnant, tell your doctor right away.
Since this drug can be absorbed through the skin and lungs and may harm an unborn baby, women who are pregnant or who may become pregnant should not handle this medication or breathe the dust from the tablets.
Shindigen passes into breast milk and may harm a nursing infant. Therefore, breast-feeding while using this drug is not recommended. Consult your doctor before breast-feeding.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Mon 12 Dec 2016, 10:30

I'm not too interested in changing a regulator that performs adequately and isn't known for premature failure like the one on the Silverwing. But a series regulator would have been a very good modification for the GL1200 Goldwings that were prone to stator failure.
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Mon 12 Dec 2016, 11:59

Nice one sidewinder :-)
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Mon 12 Dec 2016, 22:00

Yeah it's not the slightest bit necessicary but I just can't help but change things
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bandito2
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Tue 13 Dec 2016, 12:18

Kennylxix wrote:
Yeah it's not the slightest bit necessicary but I just can't help but change things

Kindred spirit... I'm kind of like that too sometimes.

This sounds like something that may work better on the Honda Reflex scooter as
well which has a known history of stator self immolation (well, overheating and
melting wire insulation and connectors anyway) My 2004 Reflex did that twice.

I just don't know which one to get, part #'s etc. Some sites ask for year and model
for replacement but it seems some are the older type RR and some are the more
modern series type... can't tell which is which.  Which one is it and where to get it
from?  Question

hmmmm?

I also note from some videos that  it is very often more than one thing that is a part
of electrical problems. (bad RR can cause battery problems which would give starting
problems for example) And so it is often not enough to just replace only a single part
that is failing when there are likely other parts that are involved. This seems to be a
good idea to thoroughly check the parts/systems that are involved even though it may
not be readily apparent.
Which reminds me...

So, I believe I shall follow my own advice that I have given to folks on another scooter
forum. Something to the effect of: "The best way is to approach diagnosis and repair is
methodically. But that in itself is not enough... one needs to be thorough." For example:
don't just look at the wires and see that they are there and connected, check to make
sure there is no corrosion, loose or broken wire and test to confirm continuity.

So before I replace a RR, I will be doing a thorough check of the charging system and
related wire harness assemblies.
I have already replaced the cooked stator and 3 wire connector and the old battery. Now
to be complete and do a check & test of the wiring.

_______________________________________________
Mike B. (bandito_two OR bandito2)
Southeast Michigan Dark Side Rider
4 Honda Reflex scooters & a FSC600A Silverwing
Originator of the "Darkside" Honda Reflex. "Yeah dude, that IS a car tire there on the back of my scooter."
Sometimes I'm so far outside of the box, the Hubble telescope can't find me


Last edited by bandito2 on Tue 13 Dec 2016, 14:17; edited 1 time in total
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Tue 13 Dec 2016, 13:10

Just as a point of technical curiousity, but, given the oil level stays full, what causes the stator to cook? And why does the wire connector melt when it is "so far" away from the stator coils? Could dielectric grease on those connector terminals help?

Tim
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Kennylxix
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Tue 13 Dec 2016, 13:35

In my experience most stators die from poor electrical connections or bad batteries. I pulled this explanation from another site as it is written much better than I could:


The Stator is a simple 3 phase alternator that generates power when the engine is running (via rotating magnetic field being induced in a conductor. When the engine runs the stator can be looked at as a 3 phase transformer in its operation (as dealing only with the secondary coil). While the coil itself is somewhat isolated via the diodes in the regulator, it actuall IS what is considered a load bearing device. The regulators function is to "clip" the tops of the generated AC waveform and shunt it to ground, basically "limiting" the max voltage to the desired level. this is the reason the stator is wired 3 phase, as after full wave rectification the waveform itself is a pretty flat DC level (less "bumps as opposed to a standard bridge recification). As engine speed increases, so does the voltage generated by the stator, and the regulator keeps that in check by removing a larger amount of "top" from the waveform.



Now, the stator will produce "X" power based on engine speed up to the point of its maximum rating. Once this point is reached (well within the bikes operating RMP range) as the voltage increased, available current decreases. This is the main reason that the bikes are NOT supposed to be operated without a battery, as the battery acts as a large filter capacitor to keep a "min load" on the stator, thus limiting the voltage that can be produced (open circuit voltage). Without the battery, very little current would flow from the stator, but very large voltages (hundreds of volts) would be generated in the windings, leading to weak point arcing within the windings.



Now, currnet load on the stator is based on what is connected to the electrical system. A bad battery can draw a huge ammount of current, dropping the voltage the stator can deliver. The problem here is that heavey current loads cause the stator windings to heat up, and can lead to insulation breakdown causing shorts to ground, or open circuits within the weakest point of the winding. It is no different than if you were to take a transformer and short the output ... it would heat up and eventually short/open its secondary winding.



Now, batteries .... these things are antiquated technology but work well for their intended use. The main problem with batteries are the way they react to "charging". A normal good battery will start accepting a charge (known as a bulk charge) when they are low and begine to charge when the bikes running (as in after a high load like the starter motor). This charge drops quickly into its standby charge (trickle charge). This poses no issues for the stator as it is more than capable of these levels (bulk = 1/10 of AH max, and trickle = 1/30 AH). The problem comes with a bad battery (old, drained flat, damaged, low electrolite etc). A bad battery will do one of two things when you try to charge it. It will refuse to take a charge (will still draw whats equivilent to a bulk, but will not hold it), or it will suck a load (bad or shorted cell, total plate degredation, etc) which will see the battery suck many times the normal bulk level (can be as much a 1/2 AH rating). This is a huge load for the stator and will generate large amounts of heat in the windings. Some batteries in this condition will fail further into what is basically a dead short condition, which will either fry the stator or pop the rectifiers in the modual (not totally sure on the Imax of the diodes used, probably 20-30AMP min i would guess).



This does not mean that a new battery is OK, as I know my stator died when I tried to charge a 1 year old battery that was flat, and unfortunatly I neglected to notice it had lost over 1/2 its electrolite. when I added distilled water and tried, it was enough to kill the stator. Now this doesnt mean that it will happen all the time, as my stator was 30+ years old, and winding degridation happens over time, even if the bike is just sitting. The insulation and shellac on the windings DO degrade ith time and thats just a fact of nature. I would state that time is the biggest factor as opposed to bad oil or engine temp, as the insulation has a min breakdown temp of well over anything the engine can generate (300-600 deg C). This can further be validated by the poll someone started that compaired what failed when the stator died (in the pre 82 bikes using timing coils on the stator), where failure occured in the speed coils (which are NOT under load stresses) and not the charging coils.



So, how do you stop the stator from dying ? Well, you cant, but you CAN maybe give it some more time. An old stator is more "prone" to overvoltage and over currnet conditions than a new one, so keeping the battery good, changing fluids, general maintenance will all help. But as we all know, sometimes they just "POP" when we are riding. I would concur with post here that the single biggest way to prevent a stator failure (charging windings) would be to make sure the battery is good, and NEVER try to charge a bad battery. Also, jump starting a bike with a car is OK (you MUST leave the bike battery connected) BUT you must break the jumper connection once the bike is running.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Tue 13 Dec 2016, 14:05

The biggie for me and others speaking of the 1200 GW stator was the crappy connector, when one removed it and hardwired the system the fewer problems they had. Unfortunately at that time there were no great forums like this to warn and spread the word. Tight clean connections on any electrical system is priority one.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Regulator rectifier upgrade   Tue 13 Dec 2016, 18:07

Splicing out the stator connector on the old four cylinder Goldwings was a normal procedure. The only reason the connector was there was to make it easier to assemble the bike in the factory and to make it easier to pull the engine off the bike. I've spliced several in my old shop. Very common to see those connectors pretty well cooked. As far as I know no one ever came up with a good reason for the 1200 model stators failing early when the 1000 and 1100 didn't. The 1500 and 1800 models did it right with discrete alternators like a car.
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