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 Training, each side of the pond.

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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Training, each side of the pond.   Fri 21 Oct 2016, 16:03

I keep reading on here, and othrr sites, about new riders hoping on bikes.
Over here, uk, you have to go through a bunch of training before you can ride on the road.
What are the US rules?
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Fri 21 Oct 2016, 18:12

Even after MSF in US---not many riders are skilled---MSF parking lot experience only, no on street.
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Mech 1 twa
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Fri 21 Oct 2016, 19:04

I don't know of any states that require training. Here in PA. you only need a permit to ride. Expires in 6 months and you either take a test or training to get license.
You can buy any bike you like and leave a dealer with no riding skills. A few never make it out of parking lot before crashing!!!! Only need proof of insurance to register bike.
Not a good system. Anything under 50cc don't need motorcycle license at all.
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dekare
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Fri 21 Oct 2016, 19:38

Mech 1 twa wrote:
I don't know of any states that require training. Here in PA. you only need a permit to ride. Expires in 6 months and you either take a test or training to get license.
You can buy any bike you like and leave a dealer with no riding skills. A few never make it out of parking lot before crashing!!!!  Only need proof of insurance to register bike.
Not a good system. Anything under 50cc don't need motorcycle license at all.

Like PA, much the same in MN (USA). One can elect to take advanced riding courses. I took one this past spring.
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poppajim
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Fri 21 Oct 2016, 20:24

I have been riding for 40 years and a year and a half ago I had a Roadsmith Trike Kit installed on my Goldwing. You talk about a new experience, I decided to take a beginner trike course which turned out to be pretty much a joke . There were 3 people in the course, another older biker and a girl who was trying to get her license. It was a day and a half course. She walked away with a Trike License and in my opinion she should not have. Any body can pass these courses, its scarry thinking they can go out and but a trike or bike . With this course you can only ride a trike, but Can Ams are trikes. I wish there were advanced trike courses , I would take it. I am a road captain in a riding club so we are expected to take a course every couple of years . Ride Safe
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Sat 22 Oct 2016, 09:34

In o-HI-o The Test if you want to call it that doesn't amount to much for bikes, taking a MFS course every couple years and practicing on your own in a empty parking lot is better than most offer.
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Sat 22 Oct 2016, 13:11

Bloody hell, I'm surprised any of you survive!!!
Over here it's cbt (compulsary basic training) after which you can ride on the road on L (learner) plates and restricted to 125cc, then assorted levels of training depending on age before you can get on a proper bike.
It's a chew on I suppose but at least you know how to crash properly :-)
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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Sat 22 Oct 2016, 13:54

When I started riding in the sixties, no training of any kind, Any cc of bike could be ridden on L plates, Ten shillings (fifty Pence) for a Provisional Licence, no safety helmet required. My BSA 250 was delivered outside my house, I had never been on a motorcycle before. I took my test two years later and passed. I must admit I did have my brothers handbook, he had from the army, on "How to ride a Motorcycle for dispatch Riders". How times change, 6volt battery, no indicators, only hand signals, crossply tyres with tubes in, no multigrade oil, and petrol about 3/6d (15 and half p) a gallon
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Mike from NS
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Sat 22 Oct 2016, 13:55

The course here is not mandatory; but a wise choice. The cost is about $485, spans Saturday and Sunday on the "range" (aka : parking lot) with the prior Wednesday evening in "the classroom". I had never been on 2 wheels (other than a bicycle) before the scooter course and at its completion, having tested on a 150 cc scooter I was granted a license with the endorsement "can drive any motorcycle". No shifting experience at all ...nil ,.. nada, zip ... none. But I am legal to drive the biggest motorcycle that I'm dumb enough to try. There was a restricted period of 30 days in which I couldn't ride after sunset, have a passenger, or drive drunk .... Anyone who takes the course, and gets better insurance rates, say it is a good course, and I agree. But a bit more costly that I cared for.

Mike
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Sat 22 Oct 2016, 13:58

With all this convoluted CBT, Theory, A1, A2, Category A nonsense nowadays, no wonder a lot of UK riders go for twist n' go Full Auto Licences. Then if they want to ride geared motorcycles they have to go through more expense and training. Thankfully nowadays you can ride DCT Honda on an Auto Licence, before that the choice was very limited.

But it hasn't always been that way, it used to be you could ride around with L plates on an annual Provisional Licence for donkeys years on a motorcycle up to 250cc. I've no idea why because the Test both Practical and Theory was basic and simple. You could ride a larger capacity motorcycle on a Provisional Licence if it had a sidecar, (and if you didn't kill yourself in the learning process) or one of those third wheel Sidewinder contraptions that exploited a loophole in the laws.

Then you could drive a three wheel Reliant Regal or Robin, or a Bond Bug on a Full Motorcyle Licence, in fact a few old boys I knew at work in my young Meldrew days drove plastic pigs right up to retirement, and didn't bother trying to get a Driving Licence.

Go even further back and riders like Old Limey had to hire a bloke to walk 10 yards in front of them waving a red flag!
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"Hi Yo"
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Sat 22 Oct 2016, 16:27




I think the main rule in Texas is the check has to clear before they let you ride away. Laughing I remember riding to the testing office to get my first license. The officer asked how I would get home if I didn't pass. I passed and have been in love with riding for many years.

It is scary to think of some of the people who get bikes with no training or experience. This is one reason I don't do group rides with people I don't know. affraid


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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:55

I had a Reliant Regal Meldrew. You could drive it on a motorcycle licence, but the reverse had to blanked off. Just stick your foot out the door and push it backwards, but that is how I learned to drive a car. Never had any lessons for riding or driving , but passed first time on a bike and second time in a car.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Sun 23 Oct 2016, 13:16

For auto's back on the mid 50's it was high school classroom and hands on driving a stick shift 6 cyl. car with no power brakes and no power steering. The driving was on hilly curvy roads with at least one stop sign on an uphill grade, don't stall it because if you did it was start over Sad Motorcycles were darn near non existent in our area.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Sun 23 Oct 2016, 14:54

Training? Nope, I got my first motor vehicle when I was 14 in 1957. A Cushman scooter than needed work to be able to ride. I had a learner's permit and that was it. I could ride a bicycle so the two speed Cushman was easy. I graduated on my 16th birthday, the day I got my first real driver's license, to a '49 Triumph Thunderbird that was in boxes. With some help I got it running and kept it going for a couple years when I bought my first automobile, a '50 Chevy. No training there except with my father to make sure I could handle the thing. Actually it was more of a mechanic's course than a car.
Still riding after many bikes, cars, trucks, and charter buses. Not a lot of training except for the buses. Those are pretty expensive, they aren't going to let you go with 57 people in a half million dollar vehicle without training on that. I did get two traffic tickets over the past sixty or so years though. No wrecks, other than a few on the desert on dirt bikes.
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Bash On!
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Mon 24 Oct 2016, 09:11

john grinsel wrote:
Even after MSF in US---not many riders are skilled---MSF parking lot experience only, no on street.

That's an issue for me now.  My 15-yo daughter just took and passed the MSF course.  As John says, the MSF course teaches you how to ride on a parking lot.

Now the problem.  In Texas, as a 15-yo, my daughter can get (even before a car license) a motorcycle license to ride bike up to 250 cc.  However, she has to take the riding and written portions of the test at the licensing office.  (For riders 18 and over, the MSF course passage card obviates the need for the road portion of the license testing.)

My daughter needs road time before she takes the riding part of the test.  How does she do so legally?  It's a gray area that I approach by riding with her on my SW or motorcycle and she follows on the PCX.  We pre-brief and post-brief on each ride to make sure she understands each lesson.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Mon 24 Oct 2016, 13:01

Thumbs up on the teaching. I do believe haveing youngsters if posible do dirt bikes off road before road bikes just for the handling experience if nothing else
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can_sky
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Mon 24 Oct 2016, 14:36

In Manitoba, Canada its seems like in between the USA and UK standards. We have graduated licensing and a mandatory training course that costs $300-$500 if I remember correctly. I got my license 7 years ago. There are no limits on what size of bike one can ride but insurance rates are higher for high risk bikes. (Under 500cc and scooters are cheaper to insure.) The first learners permit lets you take the training course which is in a parking lot but I learned A LOT about low speed handling and I use that info and technique every time I ride. Even though I've been riding off road since I was a kid. Even with an automatic. The second learners permit is I think 6 or 9 months minimum and restricts riders to riding after dawn and before dusk only (no night riding), no carrying a passenger. Full license received after a road test being followed by a car who gives the rider directions through a radio headset. I took my road test in the pouring rain on my old GL500... I'm proud that I passed it with flying colours... I was soaked. The second stage learners permit doesn't expire but I got my full license anyway. I love night riding Smile
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Mr Blobby
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Mon 24 Oct 2016, 18:08

Hi All

I have been reading with interest all your comments about "training" etc and what is applicable in the various locations around the world.
I have been riding for 46 years, I have sat astride just about everything on 2 wheels that has had a motor and must say that the Silver Wing is a superb piece of kit.
For the past number of years I have been an observer for the Institute of Advanced Motorists, teaching the skills for motorcyclists to enable them to pass their advanced test plus providing assessed rides alongside the Police.  
I have to say that there are some skills that will definitely make your riding better when it comes to the Silver Wing. It's smaller wheel geometry makes for the need to ride in a positive way and I have to say that additional rider training will give one the confidence to ride much more safely.
I want everyone to enjoy their motorcycling and must say it pays to get the additional knowledge to survive in our less than thoughtful traffic these days.
Safe riding

Laughing  Laughing  Laughing
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Pappajack44
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Mon 24 Oct 2016, 19:31

My training consisted of riding up and down the street in front of my house on and old Indian with a tank shift and "suicide" clutch. The test consisted of the examiner standing on the top step of the courthouse while I drove around the monument circle. If you didn't hit something you passed.

The Swing is my first scooter and the really awkward thing is the lack of the ability to down shift. I usually wear out the clutch before the brakes. Will take a lot of slow trips around the neighborhood for me to feel like getting on the highway.
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Eddiej123
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PostSubject: Training   Mon 24 Oct 2016, 22:17

As the other motorcycle/scooter riders in PA (USA), I agree you have options. In my opinion the motor cycle safety course is the best. The course is state run. It includes classroom time and great bike time. When you done you get the motorcycle endorsement on your license. I took the course years back and loved it. They even have advanced courses too!
I would do the MSF in your state. I failed to mention, they provide the motorcycles! You also have the option of wearing a helmet or not. As said before, when done the course, you can choose any bike you want! No limitations! So go get that Harley fat boy. But why get a Harley when you can have a silverwing!!! Wink
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"Hi Yo"
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Tue 25 Oct 2016, 12:03

[quote="Bash On!

My daughter needs road time before she takes the riding part of the test.  How does she do so legally?  It's a gray area that I approach by riding with her on my SW or motorcycle and she follows on the PCX.  We pre-brief and post-brief on each ride to make sure she understands each lesson.[/quote]



It used to be that you had to have a M/C licensed adult in sight. I always wondered if you were stopped if you could ask the officer if they had a M/C license. Rolling Eyes



I had a friend who took the course with his girlfriend ( she had obtained a motorcycle through a divorce that she was afraid to ride). The trainer told him that the only way he would pass her was if she promised never to ride.
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Eddiej123
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Tue 25 Oct 2016, 12:51

I remember in PA (USA) that all you needed to do was sign up and show up. They did everything there in the closed area.
If you completed all the necessary training you we issued a motorcycle license. The fee I think was 200$.
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Kenjj50
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Tue 25 Oct 2016, 13:20

In Illinois, we do the one evening classroom and the day and a half closed course MSF training to get the "M" (motorcycle) endorsement on our drivers license. With that in hand, you can buy anything on two or three wheels that you can afford and insure. In my class of 12 would be riders, I believe only 8 passed the course. I had ridden a Cushman, and three Hondas (65, 250 & 350cc) when I was in my late teens and early twenties, so a lot came back to me with the training. I purchased my 2002 SWing immediately thereafter and have put 7,000 miles on it since then. I highly recommend the MSF course for anyone looking to ride. In my experience the MSF instructors were very well qualified.
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mike712
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Tue 25 Oct 2016, 20:33

I'M LIKE PAPPAJACK44. My first was an Indian Chief I bought in 1958 when I was in the service in Fla. The only down side was when I got ready to ride, I had to find some one to start it for me. I was 125 lbs and could not start it with the kick starter. Been riding ever since. My wife has agreed to bury my SW with me when I go.....
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Bash On!
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Wed 26 Oct 2016, 09:55

Hi Yo wrote:
[
  It used to be that you had to have a  M/C licensed adult in sight. I always wondered if you were stopped if you could ask the officer if they had a M/C license.          Rolling Eyes



  I had a friend who took the course with his girlfriend ( she had obtained a motorcycle through a divorce that she was afraid to ride). The trainer told him that the only way he would pass her was if she promised never to ride.

Good to know about the M/C licensed adult--makes sense.

My wife got kicked out of the MSF course the first time she took it. Launched herself off the course trying to master the clutch, and almost hit the instructor. Shocked
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steve_h80
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Wed 26 Oct 2016, 11:41

Imagine tbat on public road!
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Wed 26 Oct 2016, 12:33

Training in US=not very good. MSF, industry sponsored, designed to sell more motocycles. Turns out people with MC license who have never ridden on street!

My MSF instructor card dated 1974----As DOD Safety Manager for a long time had to deal with MSF trained GI's, who were low skilled. In Germany, Gen. BB Bells own pilot got killed.....passing in no passing zone. The Gen., then ordered all military MC license holders to be re-trained....that fell to the Safety people. What a mess. My community, Giessen, had a pretty good, paved area, I had 2 German instructors, both highly skilled, riding everyday, doing track days, too.

So we had a large number of trained in US to deal with---given no instructions as exactly what to do, we used the Basic Course set up------what we found, licensed, both in US and some trained in various places around the world, but all MSF trained these GI's could not ride very well!! Worst were cruiser riders and big rig riders-----we got them doing things right and did our part-----following MSF guidelines----all parking lot skills.....then they were free to go out and ride 100mph on the Autobahn.

US training must include on street skills.....but maybe never will.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Wed 26 Oct 2016, 15:24

John,
When I first got my license back in the 60's, there were no training courses available and rode with just a learners permit. I had a 42 year absence from riding motorcycles and in 2012 I decided to start riding again and decided to take the MSF course. I had a lot of bad habits that the course cured me of. It also thought me to be a better defensive driver. After the classes the instructor informed me that I scored first in the written and riding exercises. Ten of the 25 students did not pass the course. I feel that any educational course is better than nothing. Any experienced rider would do good to take the course and advance courses if not already taken.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Wed 26 Oct 2016, 16:37

As a former rider educator I can say getting people newbies or not to realize that it's a good thing to not only 1st time training AND follow up courses, PLP's and safety Sunday's were a lot more conman back 15 or so years ago.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: Training, each side of the pond.   Thu 27 Oct 2016, 00:03

Just think of all the lives saved of those students that fail the MSF course. When I took the class, all students passed the written part of the class, but ten students failed the skill control riding. This one student in front of me loss control while attempting a double U-turn within a given marked area. I think he panicked and ended up accelerating out of control. The bike started doing wheelies while he ran along side the bike. He fell down and his bike crashed. The rule was that if you lose control or drop the bike that would be an automatic failure. We were allowed to practice the maneuvers that would be used in the final test. Again, I feel that the class did good by failing students that would have been a danger to themselves and/or others.
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