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 front brake

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phils a winger
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PostSubject: front brake   Mon 04 Jul 2016, 17:20

my front caliper keeps sticking after heavy braking, quick tap with a rubber mallet unsticks. As ive already stripped and cleaned the pistons thought its time for new pistons, nothing available ebay or non original. There is a s/h caliiper in good condition but is from a non abs model, do all silver wings have linked brakes if so will the caliper fit my abs model?

need a quick answer if possible as the ebay listing ends soon

plan is to use this and overhaul when i can get pistons
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Mon 04 Jul 2016, 17:50

All Silverwings have linked brakes.

You'd have to check a parts source like www.partzilla.com to match model year and ABS/non-ABS part numbers for interchangeability.
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NWSSC
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PostSubject: front brake    Mon 04 Jul 2016, 23:01

You stated that you cleaned the pistons in the front caliper. Did you
remove them or just cleaned the outside? There is usually no need to replace the pistons.Late caliper pistons are cast iron with silicone in the material and do not corrode like older pistons. Usually
cleaning them up with a little fine emery paper does the job. If one piston is not moving evenly with the other one it can cause the disk
brake pad to cock and not return freely. I would think cleaning the pistons up,new seals and the correct lube on them should take care of your problem. Howard
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Tue 05 Jul 2016, 03:30

last year both calipers were removed and stripped, pistons removed, seals removed,seal grooves cleaned out and rebuilt. All 3 pistons have corrosion at outer edge, cleaned this up without being too agressive and the new pads fitted at the time lasted less than 5000 miles, fitted new pads about 300 miles ago. Could be the fact that i ride all year round and the climate here means salt on the road for 6 months of the year, even if its not icy or snowing ! Corrosion is something you have to live with.

Checked partzilla and there are 3 different calipers part numbers 45150-mct-911, 771 or 016 (early)
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micbusathens
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Tue 05 Jul 2016, 15:41

Lube sliders too
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Seadog
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Tue 05 Jul 2016, 16:40

The local Honda dealer say they always remove and clean up the brakes at every service, even though it's only the service schedule for certain intervals, as the brakes have a habit of getting gummed up and sticking, and it's better and easier to keep them good than wait for problems to arise. They apply this to all their bikes, not just Silverwings.

We have a wet climate and salted roads (as Phil mentioned though he gets it worse up his end of the country), and it perhaps gives brakes a harder time than average.

I did wonder when I first heard the dealer say it whether it might just be a ploy to charge more for servicing, but I learnt the wisdom of it when I had my bike (not Silverwing) serviced elsewhere one time, then later suffered a binding back brake. I hadn't realised it, and it was only picked up by the annual MOT safety check. That then explained the mysterious melting of plastic parts I'd previously found at the back of my bike: the disc must have been getting red hot!
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andyman
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Tue 05 Jul 2016, 17:26

I have an ABS front caliper sitting on my shelf. I'd part with it if you are looking for one.
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vmaximus
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Tue 05 Jul 2016, 20:21

I had the same problem on my Sym maxim 400i, I was informed by the main dealer that there were no spares available and I would have to buy  complete new calipers, I stripped the calipers removed the pistons, seals and cleaned the brake seal groves. After measuring the pistons I looked on Ebay and bought the correct diameter seal very cheaply. After greasing the seals and buffing the pistons everything fitted back very smoothly and I have not had any problems since. I use this scooter as my ride to work bike and general work horse and use it every day in all weathers and up to now I have had no more problems. If the pistons are no corroded it would more likely be the seals and it isn't a big job to do. Just checked, the seals were £3.25p per piston and the Ebay dealer was banks.motorcyclemailparts
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Tue 05 Jul 2016, 21:35

This is from an earlier post I responded to.

I had my front brakes lock up when reversing down my driveway. Had it towed to Honda repair center. They said that the master cylinder for the front brakes were overfilled and charged me $100 to diagnose the problem and charged me another $100 for flushing the fluid. I have the extra warranty, but they said that it does not cover diagnostics, and the brake fluid is a service item. Since I purchased my 2013 Swing new, they said that either the factory and/or the dealer overfilled the master. I questioned the mechanic as I did not know that a master can be overfilled. He said that it can and should not be overfilled. I only had about 5k miles on the bike. Up until then I didn't have any issues with the front brakes.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Tue 05 Jul 2016, 22:49

Easyrider wrote:
<>Honda...charged me $100 to diagnose the problem and charged me another $100 for flushing the fluid. I have the extra warranty, but they said that it does not cover diagnostics, and the brake fluid is a service item.<>

My 2¢: Here's another example of dealer theivery and a reason why one should buy a FSM and do your own service.



Tim
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Sidewinder Pilot
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:24

Hmmm...Overfilled master cylinder, This is why you don't add fluid to a non-leaking system!

Since brake systems don't consume fluid, if you top-up the fluid when the pads have wear on them, then later replace the pads, it will "overfill" your master cylinder.
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hankster
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Wed 06 Jul 2016, 15:52

As your pads wear down the fluid level drops.
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NWSSC
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PostSubject: front brake    Wed 06 Jul 2016, 21:43

It is true that at times you may have to add fluid to a disc brake system to compensate for pad ware. I believe it is almost impossible to over a master cylinder on a disc brake system.If it were filled to the max and driven so hard to heat and expand the fluid it would dispel the fluid out of the vent hole.There is no check valve in a normal disc brake system.Fluid will run in both directions. On drum brakes it is possible to heat the fluid to a point that you will experience brake drag. There is a check valve in the master cylinder
that will prevent the fluid to return and they can lock up. Howard
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Sidewinder Pilot
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Thu 07 Jul 2016, 10:17

But...If your pads are almost run out, and you see the low fluid in the window and top it up full to the brim and later change your pads, it's possible to push that fluid back to the reservoir when the caliper in compressed.
If you do this you could "overfill" the master cyl and have pressure on the pads causing dragging.

That's why when I see some air in the top of the sight glass I know it's getting to be brake time......
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hankster
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Thu 07 Jul 2016, 16:32

Sidewinder Pilot wrote:
But...If your pads are almost run out, and you see the low fluid in the window and top it up full to the brim and later change your pads, it's possible to push that fluid back to the reservoir when the caliper in compressed.
If you do this you could "overfill" the master cyl and have pressure on the pads causing dragging.

That's why when I see some air in the top of the sight glass I know it's getting to be brake time......

Most good mechanics will loosen the master cylinder lid (or remove fluid if it's full) before they retract the brake pistons.
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Sidewinder Pilot
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Thu 07 Jul 2016, 17:13

Ahhh....Yes, normal procedure for any "Good" mechanic, but there are many riders that start doing their own maintenance without knowing how to do their own maintenance!

Also, don't assume the stealership tech servicing your bike is paying attention to the pad ware Vs. fluid level issue or anything else for that matter, many stories to suggest otherwise.....
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Fri 08 Jul 2016, 00:30

The master cylinder reservoirs are not vented to the atmosphere. There's a diaphragm under the lid that can expand and contract to allow for temperature changes. It would be pretty difficult to overfill the reservoir, when you put the diaphragm back on top of the fluid and press the top down it would dump out the excess fluid all over everything. Not a good idea since brake fluid will eat paint and damage plastic.

Honda brakes only have pistons on one side so the caliper has to shift sideways to pull the inboard pads against the disk. There are two bolts holding the caliper to the wheel. The caliper must be able to slide side to side a bot to even the pressure on the pads. If you can't move it a bit with your hands pull out the mounting bolts, clean them up and the hole through the caliper and re-lubricate.

The other a possibility is the relief port in the master cylinder. It's a very small hold at the bottom of a larger hole you can see in the bottom of the master reservoir. That tiny hole is critical. That hole relieves pressure from the brake fluid as it gets hot from use. If it's plugged it also make it almost impossible to bleed that brake. I use a wire brush bristle held in a vise grip to clean out that hole. Don't enlarge it or it will greatly reduce the braking force from the master cylinder.

There's a simple test to determine which might be the cause. When the brake is dragging, open the bleeder screw on the caliper. If fluid squirts out under a bit of pressure and the brake frees up the problem is the relief port.

If the brake doesn't free up it's the sliders. Usually if the sliders are sticking or frozen one pad will be a lot thinner than the other.
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Sidewinder Pilot
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Fri 08 Jul 2016, 01:26

I agree the OP's issue is much more likely the sliders then the fluid level scenario, as you said, Honda has engineering features that probably prevent it from happening the way I've described, and, I've never actually seen this "backfill-overpressure" situation occur.
My point was that under the right circumstances, with some systems, it is possible, and if it did happen, it could mimic the more common pin binding issue.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Fri 08 Jul 2016, 02:24

Cracking the bleeder screw would take care of any possible overfill. The only way one could overfill the reservoir would be if you were pressure filling the system from the caliper end and shut the bleed screw with pressure on the system. If you were to overfill the reservoir with the top off the overage would slop out all over the place when you replaced the diaphragm prior to reinstalling the top.
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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Sat 09 Jul 2016, 10:53

My experience with Honda disk brakes....and others, riding everyday in wet/salted roads (Germany) ---a couple of times a year at least I had to take thing apart, clean pistons, make sure they move in and out----I know grease/oil a no-no on brakes, but----spot of high temp grease where pad and piston contact, good clean up of pins---pads must move in and out freely. Now with SilverWings getting older---good thing for everybody to check.
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HORNBLOWER
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Sat 09 Jul 2016, 14:15

john grinsel wrote:
I know grease/oil a no-no on brakes.

I always grease everything on my brakes especially where the seals fit into the grooves but I use red silicone grease, on the sliders and pins I use Blue ACF50 grease which inhibits corrosion really well and on the back of the pads I use copper slip.
When I strip the pistons out I put them on my bench polisher and use a compound for stainless steel, I find getting them very smooth makes them work more freely and not drag, plus they don't corrode so easily when shiny. Last of all I put a couple of layers of PTFE tape on the thread on my brake bleed nipples to stop drawing air into the system when using an automatic bleed tube, or getting fluid leakage when pumping in from the bottom.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Tue 12 Jul 2016, 03:24

Just to clarify, my bike was a new 2013 off of a dealer's showroom. I had it for about a year with 4k miles. I had not done anything to my brakes.
NWSSC, I remember the service manager saying something about the fluid being overfilled and the check valve may have been plugged. I thought it would be covered by my extended warranty or I would have worked on it myself and save the $200. I've done many drum and disk brakes. Never knew you could overfill the master. I know about draining some fluid when expanding the pads. When adding fluid I would fill the master to the max,  adjust the diaphragm, then install the cover.
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: front brake   Wed 27 Jul 2016, 17:44

time for an update, as i was taking both wheels out for new tyres i thought i'll have a look at the front brake again, took it off pumped out the pistons and split. the 2 outer pistons are badly corroded at pad end, on main body where 2 halves bolt together the casting has corroded and broke up in places, also the casting above the dust seals has also broke up in places. Looks like i have to buy at least the 2 outer pistons, have pm'd a member about a caliper he has. To all uk owners keep checking, as far as i know this bike has not spent all its life in scotland , was registered in peterborough i think.
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