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 Rapid break up of front wheel bearing

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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:58 pm

Yesterday I noticed a rust stain on the right hand centre of the front wheel, had been riding fine no unusual noises or rattle. Set of on my commute and after about 1 miles there felt like a roughness at about 45 to 55, worse than the usual vibration. Thought nothing of it but as i got to work it got worse and a bit of knocking on bumps and braking not as good.

Decided i'd take it steady coming home, kept it below 40 to start with, but as it came to crown in the road or a tar snake the steering started to shake, from there i dropped it to 30. Braking produced a new knocking noise and a long lever travel. Got home after an hour (normal journey 35 mins)

Started to strip the front but ran out of energy, took the wheel out tonight, after removing a seized axle. The right hand side had collapsed and the inner race came away with the ball bearings left inside. Managed to drift out the left hand, disc side eventually but there is no way i can shift the outer race on the right hand side. It is solid, tried heating with a blow torch but not enough heat to get it glowing, nothing remains to get a purchase on to hit with a drift.

Any ideas guys ?

My silver is an 08 with 25000 miles on, not a good advert for a honda to have a catastrophic bearing fail so soon. Also watch out if you see a rust stain by the centre of the wheel, park it dont ride it, I was lucky, there were a few moments where i was about to call the wife and bring a new pair of shorts !
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:20 pm

Yikes!

I can't offer any practical advice, but hope you manage to get it sorted soon.
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Cookie
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:54 pm

That doesn't sound good Phil, hope the underwear recovers.

It's probably a good job you couldn't get the race glowing with the blowtorch as that would possibly have started melting the alloy of the wheel.

A freezing spray around the inside of the race may help by contracting it a bit but I suspect that temperature would conduct too easily between the race and the wheel hub.

Has the bike been cleaned with a pressure washer in the past? That would at least explain the bearing rusting and the seized axle.

Can you reassemble the inner race and balls Back into the bearing - you would have to push all the balls around to one side if you see what I mean in order to get it in. Then spread the balls back out so they are evenly spaced around the bearing. The inner will then be held in place and the bearing will take axial loads meaning you may be able to whack the whole thing out with a drift on the inner race. Fiddly and a bit of a long shot but it might just work.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:15 pm

Heat the wheel hub, not the bearing, with a heat gun. Then drive it out from the other side. Or use an inner bearing slide-hammer puller. But ya gotta heat the wheel hub.

Tim
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:57 pm

When you get the old out and ready for new to go in put the race in the freezer overnight, have everything ready to go. Warm the hub, I used a hair dryer on high until the hub was hot, had the race ready to go and wrapped with a towel took it to the shop and it went into place very easy, just a light tap to make sure it was seated. I've done trailer bearings the same way.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:00 pm

scratch What did he say Martha...he put his trailer in a freezer?
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:41 pm

I would heat the hub with a hair dryer, then use a slide hammer to get the bearing out. That assumes that you can grab the race from the inside of the race.
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gremlin
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:45 pm

phils a winger wrote:


My silver is an 08 with 25000 miles on, not a good advert for a honda to have a catastrophic bearing fail so soon. !

I wouldn't necessarily blame Honda for this. At 25,000 miles the front wheel would have been off a few times for tyre replacement and most of us have seen what the workmanship in some dealerships is like. Myself I would inspect, clean and lubricate axle and bearing where needed and make sure I assemble it with the right torque. The tyre fitter? I have my doubts. Also, as someone else mentioned: excessive use of a pressure cleaner can wreak havoc with bearings. Of course, it is possible that it is just a plain bearing failure. Not that Honda make them, but they are still responsible.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:45 am

Could be a lack of maintenance problem. I always check my wheel bearings for slop or roughness every time I have the wheels off for tire replacement or whatever. It's well worth a moment now and then to listen to the wheel bearings using a long screwdriver like a stethoscope. I also use an infrared non-contact thermometer to check for unusual wheel hub temperature a couple times a year. You can get an inexpensive thermometer like that from Harbor Freight. I started using the thing to check my utility trailer bearings when on the road. You'll see a temperature rise long before the bearings are damaged or near failure.
Warning - If you suspect your bike has a damaged wheel bearing. STOP RIDING. DON'T CONTINUE. I had a seriously damaged GL1100 in my old shop for parts. It was damaged because the front wheel suddenly began wobbling then jammed in the front fork. It was a total wheel bearing failure on one side that cracked the hub and allowed the wheel to come near total collapse. I don't know what happened to the guy who was riding it at the time but suspect there were serious injuries or worse considering the condition of the motorcycle.

http://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-93984.html

I prefer the pistol grip unit. Useful around the house to check refrigerator function, air conditioner vent temps as well as the AC in your car, etc.
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:01 pm

ive had her 2 years and have never pressure washed it this is first time front wheel has been out in my ownership, front tyre was changed at 15k and is about ready for a change. Nothing to purchase to get a slide hammer in will try heating hub from outside with a hot air gun and see if i can get a tyre lever to hook over then hit from other side. Just hoping its not welded in.
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terrier
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:29 pm

phil...........that's a bit of bad luck. Pleased you managed to get home ok though. The bearing seal must have failed allowing water to enter the bearing and contributing to it's collapse. It can be difficult to get the old outer ring out of the hub without proper tools, which very few of us have. If you have, or can borrow, a Dremel type multitool you could maybe grind a slot down the inside of the ring and it would then split and you could prise it out. When you've now got the wheel out and dismantled it would be better to replace both bearings and seals to save any future problems. Then it's a matter of fitting the new one as described by some of the other members. Hope all goes well for you.

Den
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HORNBLOWER
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:51 am

After all the other methods you've tried I would use a small grinder wheel in something like a Dremmel. You will use up several wheels but it does work! You must keep checking in the final stages so you don't go into the alloy. Once you have done one side it should come free but if necessary grind the other side too!
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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:37 am

If all else fails you could get a replacement front wheel from Ebay. Look in FJS 600 in motorcycle parts. Sad I just checked there is one for sale a off 2005 should fit okay forty pounds including potage.
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terrier
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:37 am

It's all very well buying another s/h wheel if you actually need a wheel but could you trust the bearings and seals in that s/h wheel. You would need to change the bearings and seals in that wheel also for peace of mind. In the end you may as well spend the £40 on new bearings and seals for your own wheel, unless you really need a spare front wheel.

Den
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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:03 am

You could be right terrier, but if it were me, I would not spend hours trying to get a ruined bearing out and who knows what damage to the holder. As for a bad bearing on another wheel, highly unlikely. Have we had any issues with wheel bearings before this? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:02 am

No "issues" per se, but I replaced 3 on my '03. One because it became noisy after many thousand miles; the others due, ultimately, to rusted bearing/seal failure because I used automotive wheel cleaner to hose off the break dust.

I wonder if doubling up the seals might be an option. There is enough space in the wheel to do that. Actually a post on the Italian Silverwing forum shows someone doubling up the front wheel bearings but using only one seal on each side. To me it seems that the bearings will last a very long time but double seals would be cheap insurance.

Tim
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terrier
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:50 am

Just looking on ebay and these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-FJS600-SILVERWING-03-09-OEM-SPEC-NSK-COMPLETE-FRONT-WHEEL-BEARING-SEALS-/281372266219?hash=item4183180eeb:g:vgkAAOxy69JTA87B are for sale. A good price for a quality NSK bearing. There are even cheaper ones listed but unknown brand.

Den
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Greysilver
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:11 pm

Curious, I had a front wheel bearing go out on my Goldwing. Been a few years. I mention this because it was a rare Honda part failure.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:42 am

Well worth sticking your finger in the hole and hand turning the bearing when the wheel is off the bike for a tire change or whatever. They should feel silky smooth to turn with no looseness of the inner race.
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:01 am

90 k kl 3 front tire change, hand spin bearing and smooth with 50 k kl with trike install ,much more stress on bearing. Original brakes pad like new ,and fluids ,replace oil filter every 20 k kl .98% hwy driving . Must  be the cold whether riding ,hot and rainy whether riding much harder on Swing IMO My Swing is in garage when not in use ,never baking in the sun or parked in the rain except when riding . cheers chickendance motorcycle small moped
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:09 am



I wonder if doubling up the seals might be an option. There is enough space in the wheel to do that. Actually a post on the Italian Silverwing forum shows someone doubling up the front wheel bearings but using only one seal on each side. To me it seems that the bearings will last a very long time but double seals would be cheap insurance.

Tim[/quote]

You can buy double seals, early 1500 G'wings had single sided seal = bearing failure. I believe the double sided have RSS rather than RS in the part number, I'd look / ask for that if the S'Wing is single sided.
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing    Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:21 pm

Although the S/W does not have the most robust front wheel bearing it is not that common of a problem.I would probably replace everything as per the factory. If you have a reputable repair shop in your area I would take the wheel there and have them press the bearing out. Normally you can drive the old bearing out but this sounds like a abnormal situation.You can usually tell most good trade people by the way they pick up the tools of there trade. It is important that they support the hub adequately to prevent more problems. And it is possible to use a electric heat gun but not a gas torch. Good luck and let us know. Howard
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:42 pm

I don't think that wheel bearing failure is very common on SWs. I've owned two them and have two friends who have Silverwings. None of the four, with mileages ranging from 34,000 to 3000 miles had any wheel bearing problems. My first SW had around 17,000 miles on it, I replaced the drive belt and tires. When I had the wheels off I checked the bearings and found them to be smooth turning with no slop between the inner and outer races. I've had similar results with the Goldwings I've owned. I put 155,000 miles on my '93 and never changed the bearings as they checked out okay on the eight sets of tires I put on that bike. Those bearings weren't much larger than those on the SW either.
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:11 pm

oldwingguy wrote:
You can buy double seals, early 1500 G'wings had single sided seal = bearing failure. I believe the double sided have RSS  rather than RS in the part number, I'd look / ask for that if the S'Wing is single sided.

I was referring to doubling up the dust seals. I know that the OEM bearings are RSS spec. The bearing "pocket" in the hub is deep enough to accommodate two bearings on each side along with a single dust seal on each side, so my thought is that it could probably accommodate two dust seals on each side. I wonder if it would be a practical upgrade. Sorry for any confusion in my original post.

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sun May 01, 2016 8:59 am

Ahh yes I see said the blind man, double double, not sure what would be gained but perhaps putting a bit of grease would be extra insurance. After seeing the early bearing failures on the 1500 I lay most of the blame on over zealous cleaning of the wheels and forcing water in that area. Let us know if double double works.
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sun May 15, 2016 2:48 am

just got the wheel back from a local garage that does my mots, after i've been away on holiday in spain for 2 weeks. Freind of mine took it and collected for me, got lots of abuse on my behalf because of a) the depth of the space and the gap after the bearing had been fitted, he didnt fit the seals as he thought it would be a waste of time b) the fact that there are no spacers to stop teh bearings coming loose.

Now he is a biker so would assume he had seen other wheels where the bearing sits deep in the hub, i'm only replacing what came out and from previous comments im assuming that mine is no different to any other wings. Gonna fit the seals and add some grease, looks my gold wing motat the end of the month will be fun and full of abuse (nothing new there then)
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sun May 15, 2016 9:21 am

That's not a "friend" you've got there, Phil. At best he's just a dick-fingered idiot, but it appears more likely a saboteur. Time to change mechanics before you get killed. Or better yet, learn to DIY.

Motion Pro has the individual tools for removing S'Wing wheel bearings for ~$25USD, and OEM bearings & seals are ~$10USD each side.

Rule No.1: To rely on others is to seek disappointment
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Mon May 16, 2016 4:08 pm

so yesterday i put the wheel back in, forgot to mention that each side has a spacer that sits into the gap between bearing and seal, i part filled the gap with grease and slid each spacer in. lined up the axle and put it back in following previous advice, tighten disc side and then bounce forkd up and down a couple of times to settle axle. Got a further txt that i chose to ignore once again advising me that the seals were the wrong size and they should be 28mm wide ( i presume he means thick to make up the gap) I've replaced what was put in by mother honda, cant see 2 sets of bearings fail in 25000 miles, bike is riding fine now ive reset the tyre pressures, lost a few pounds while stood for 3 weeks. honda parts list says 28 x 42 x 8mm, ID x OD x Depth
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Mon May 16, 2016 5:12 pm

Are you sure that's not 20mm ID? The front axle is 20mm diameter.
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Mon May 16, 2016 5:41 pm

yes but the spacer goes through the seal to mate up with the bearing, so while you could get 2 seals in you wont get 2 bearings in unless you shorten the spacer
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Mon May 16, 2016 6:05 pm

The Silverwing front wheel bearing set up is pretty much the same as on a Goldwing. Two bearings, a spacer between them inside the wheel and a dust seal. The bearing centers are held together between the spacer and the whole assembly is clamped together by the axle when it's torqued up. I that pretty much what you saw? The link below shows the assembly pretty well.

http://www.motogrid.com/OEMpartfinder.htm?aribrand=HOM#/Honda/FSC600AAC_(06)_MOTOR_SCOOTER,_JPN,_VIN%23_JH2PF014-6K300001_TO_JH2PF014-6K399999/FRONT_WHEEL/FSC600A-06-JPN-AC/2Y14MCT601AMCTAF1600C
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed May 18, 2016 4:00 pm

yep, thats the set up, quite a large space between seal and bering if you leave them flush with hub edge, so i packed some grease in. Just been out tonight and fitted new front pads as the bearing fail seems to have also shredded the material on the pad that sits against the pistons. All now seems ok so hopefully shell behave herself for a few months. 1 bike giving grief i can live with, two bikes giving grief at the same time is not fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed May 18, 2016 4:25 pm

I'm surprised because I've never had a front wheel bearing failure on my Goldwings. I put 180,000 miles on my '93 all with the same set. Something just doesn't sound right with these failures.
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:11 pm

i got a worn front wheel bearing myself , getting that fixed tomorrow or Friday .

i hope you got it all sorted out .
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:42 pm

Bit of an update on the bearing issue, due to the damage to r/h bearing it looks like the l/h bearing location may have worn and is not staying where it should. I ordered a wheel from a breaker in lithuania, swapped disc, abs ring and tyre. Bearings felt smooth, also got an abs caliper from same country, different breaker. ABS specific parts in UK are like rocking horse doo doo, that or ABS is so good that they never crash in UK. Been running a week, fair bit of vibration/low speed wobble, was balanced with old disc before i swapped that and abs ring, would have thought the disc would be unsprung and not affect balance. Ended up taking the balance weights off and it was a bit better. Have noticed at walking speed it feels like at certain points of the rotation that the wheel is moving side to side. Gonna pull the wheel and check run out, buckle or damage, looked all ok and did not show up on balance.

Other reason is am thinking of putting 2 bearings on each side of the old rim, shorten spacer ( wheel came with axle and spacers, so have spare)fit a abs rim and a disc, get a cheap tyre and try it. Any thoughts people ? Earlier in this post it was mentioned that someone in Italy haad done this so it may be possible and could solve the bearing location issue.
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:38 pm

Took the wheel off this morning, spun it slowly balanced between two axle stands, there is up to 5mm of buckle at one point and the bearings are OK. Old rim is not buckled and left hand side will take a second bearing and a seal, right hand side will take a bearing but not a seal. Need to find a alloy wheel repairer that can fix scooter alloys, priced a new one from Honda, just short of £300, no stock in UK or Europe, delivery mid january and you can pretty much guarantee that the price will go up.
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:52 pm

just a point on this i recon that both abs and non abs wheels are the same the non abs just not drilled and tapped where the abs ring fits the casting looks the same that goes for the rear too
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:43 am

oh my front bearings were rough at 22000 miles easy to replace them though
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:29 pm

agree that wheels look same except for abs ring mounting holes, my drilling and tapping is not up to this standard so not even going to think about it. Had a garage spin the wheel up on a balancer after removing the tyre, the 'new rim' is wrecked and would say beyond repair, 5.5mm according to the dial guage. Had a few emails with the seller (Lithuania) and he agreed to a refund, was going to buy another from him but looked closer and theres no bearings or centre tube, £150 or £300 for a new one, think its going to have to be honda unless a UK seller has one that is in good condition.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:32 am

Seeing what will happen if a front wheel fails at speed I think I'd go for a new one from Mother Honda.
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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:24 am

Post deleted


Last edited by Old Limey on Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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siataukreg
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:43 am

you only need to place your abs ring on the wheel mark the holes and use a small drill then secure it with acme screws these are small self tappers with a bolt head easy
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:52 pm

ok, decided to try a liberal application of bearing fit on the bearing and the wheel rim, leaving it overnight to harden and getting the tyre fitted back on in the morning. Going to see if this will cure the bearing coming loose and give me my bike back, hadnt ordered a new rim yet. Turns out for the better, lunchtime and i'm driving my car, grinding noise from rear on braking. Looks like the discs and pads couldnt last another 2 weeks till the MOT test. Another £200 could well do without.
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terrier
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:22 pm

Not having much luck lately Phil Sad
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:57 pm

tyre back on and wheel fitted tonight, unless the gold wing is fixed on sunday then this will have to do at least monday. While its been off have fitted handguards same as other memebers have recently.
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hondos
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:16 pm

The Stock Front wheel bearing I believe is a 6004UU. I looked at the break down the bearing has zero seals/shields.

What about using a 6004-2RS instead (I have NOT verified that this would work, or that dimensions are the same) of a, 6004-UU designation/part number, that way you have Inner and Outer seals, this would at least keep out the garbage/liquid from entering the bearings, and washing the grease out over time, I never pressure wash, so probably No need for me. I would have to check all Measurements to verify that a 6004-2RS and stock are the same or different, and whether or not it would even fit without damage to the seals.

I wou
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Rapid break up of front wheel bearing   Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:39 pm

6004UU is a sealed bearing --sealed at both sides. You also replace the dust seals when the bearings are replaced. So two 91054-MAM-003 (6004UU) bearings and two 91257-MAY-003 dust seals per front wheel.

Tim
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