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 ABS Lite Stays On

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DickO
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PostSubject: ABS Lite Stays On   Mon 29 Feb 2016, 23:47

Will try to make this short.  Keep in mind I've had no time to troubleshoot this problem.  Tried to start the SWing three or four days ago after it had set in the garage for over two months.  Naturally the battery was dead.  Put my battery tender on overnite and still would not start (suspect tender is bad).  

Jumped the battery and started with no problem.  Ran for 20 minutes at about 3500 rpms, shut down and restarted okay (even tho volts only read 12.Cool.  Put back on tender last nite but still would not start today.  Jumped it again and took it out for a half hour ride but noticed the ABS lite would not go out.  I had removed the battery leads to remove the tender adapter that I no longer wanted on there.  Don't know why that might have anything to do with the ABS problem.  

Here's the "idiot" part... rode it back in to the garage and tried to turn in front of my car.  Cocked the front wheel too far and dropped the darn thing (actually I just kept it from going down hard; no damage).  The bike shut itself off so I turned the key and the start switch off and maneuvered back upright.  Just out of curiosity, jumped it again and rode it back out again to see if there was any difference and there wasn't.

Like I said, haven't troubleshot anything yet other than to look for any loose connecton around the front wheel.  Before I really jump into it, can anyone give me a hint as to where the best place to start is ??? Figure I'll have to start checking fuses and relays first, right??  Appreciate any help.

P.S. The brake system itself still works fine... it's just he lite staying on.
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bicyclenut
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 01 Mar 2016, 02:54

Since there is some question about the battery and voltage, the first thing I would do is make sure you have a good battery and power.  As the ABS uses a PCM/ECM (computer), if its anything like an automobile, low voltage or bad grounds can always create havoc with computers.  Since it sat for several months and the battery is the only known issue right now, that is where I would start. Make sure you have good voltage, usually like to see 12.5v on a charged battery.

If not the battery, an easy start might be checking the wiring to the wheel speed sensors as lack of continuity to a sensor can cause light to come on.  As it was stored in winter, speed sensor wires and other wires could be damaged due to rodent damage (mice, chipmunks, etc.) This can be especially common in winter when they take refuge in warmer garages and chew on wiring in vehicles. At our Auto Shop today a chipmunk jumped out at a Technician this morning from a car we towed in when he removed a panel to inspect a car that wouldn't start.  Found some major damage to wiring and connectors under the hood.

Here was a photo of one of the connectors we had to replaced, chipmunk chewed right through the wiring:  
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http://www.MarkNovackPhotography.com
bandito2
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 01 Mar 2016, 10:43

If you don't have a service manual, you really you should get one. It would help a lot with this and other issues. The issue of light staying on is addressed in section 17 - 2 Also, the Self diagnosis memory reset is described on 17 - 3

Any error codes displayed are listed on 17 - 6 with the problem/symptom, cause and pages to refer to regarding the problem.

In the mean time, if you don't have a service manual, I could read from the manual and describe the relevant procedures to you that may be needed.
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DickO
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 01 Mar 2016, 18:24

Thanks guys,
Just now got home and went out and checked the bank of fuses under the seat. Everything there checks okay. Hopefully will find some time in the next couple of days to take the left rear body panel off and check out the connectors under there and the procedures for troubleshooting the ABS module (yes, I do have a manual and read up on it some last nite... was sure hoping it would simply be a fuse Sad ). Anyway will try again later and stay posted on whatever I come up with. Thanks for the assistance offer "bandito2". May be back with even more questions before I'm finished.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Thu 03 Mar 2016, 19:23

An ABS alarm won't affect the brakes other than the loss of ABS function. They'll still operate like a SW without ABS. My BMW K1100LT used to be sensitive to battery voltage. A slight drop in battery voltage would cause the ABS light to stay on. A new battery cured the problem with it. For a while before I replaced the battery I'd start up the bike ride it a few minutes, then shut it off and restart it. That often would reset the ABS because with a few minutes run the battery would be recharged enough to clear the ABS fault. The ABS wouldn't clear unless I restarted the bike because the ABS self test only runs when you first turn on the ignition. Once it's tripped it's tripped and one has to restart to clear it if it will clear.
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DickO
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Fri 04 Mar 2016, 01:14

Thanks "exavid",
Good info... hope to finally get involved with it tomorrow. Checked the battery voltage again this evening and it was down to 12.36. So may fire it up again and take it out for another "charging" spin.
Will see if that makes any difference using your method. Thanks again.
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oldwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Fri 04 Mar 2016, 03:06



DickO your " charging  spin " better be a long one as a around the block spin can be as bad as no spin at all. A battery charger then a maintainer might be a better long term solution, BTDT.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Fri 04 Mar 2016, 13:29

On my BMW 1100 the ABS didn't want to reset if the battery voltage before starting was below 12.4V. The threshold might be different for the SW but low voltage is a common reason for ABS problems.
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DickO
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Sat 05 Mar 2016, 20:08

A million thanks to you Paul W (exavid)...
Despite being the cheapskate that I am, I broke down yesterday and bought a new battery charger at Wally World...  Long story short, set it up, charged the batter and let it set on "float" for most of a day, took the bike out to the highway, goosed it real good and the light finally went out.  In times past, the light "normally" would have went out when I was still in my driveway headed out to the main road but not this time.  When it did finally extinguish itself I breathed a very bigh sigh of relief and took it for a jaunt on in to the village and then back home.  Anyway, a sincere thank-you, Paul.  One more instance on this site of someone passing on valuable info to help someone else.  I'm a happy camper now.  Smile Smile

P.S. Just wanted to add that when I rode the bike to try to charge it, it only got up to about 12.5 volts (evidently didn't ride it far enough as was previously suggested). After charging and 'maintaining' it was up to 13.2 volts which I believe is pretty average for a good newer battery.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Sun 06 Mar 2016, 14:16

A fully charged lead acid battery should show 14.4V with the engine running around 3500 rpm or so if the charging system is working properly. It might be a good idea to consider a new battery in the near future. Meanwhile keeping the tender on it should do the job for awhile.
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DickO
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Sun 06 Mar 2016, 16:21

Well, the voltage was measured with the SWing just sitting there with the engine not running but fully charged in the second case. Will be interesting to see what it measures the next time I start it. Should give an operating indication of the charging system equipment ???
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hankster
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Sun 06 Mar 2016, 20:46

Here is a state of charge chart that can be used. The voltage should be measured 6+hours after charging/riding and open circuit (no battery drain). Note that you should never run the battery below 50% state of charge.

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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Sun 06 Mar 2016, 21:58

There is some current drawn by the scooter when the key is turned off. Not much but enough to run a weak battery down after awhile. The main draw is the keep alive voltate that keeps the clock chip running so you don't have to reset the clock each time you start the bike. If you have a security system it's most likely it is drawing a bit of power as well. Not too sure about the SW security system since as far as I know none of the SWs imported to the US has one, at least not a HISS setup.
You can test for parasitic draw from the battery by connecting a millamp meter in series with the battery with the bike's ignition switch off.
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Bcook01
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PostSubject: Abs explanation   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 12:58

Abs is a computer controlled breaking system that monitors speed of solenoids and possible current. If there is insufficient current/ voltage from the battery it will fail its test cycle. I have experienced the problem before.

I have seen few good explanations of how the system works. Starting on page 8 of attached PDF file gives a good layman' s explanation.

http://www.hoc.org.uk/gallery/press/2003/2003_Silverwing_abs.pdf

FYI

Bob
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DickO
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 14:49

Thanks, Bob... I'll have a look at it.
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DaveR
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 08 Mar 2016, 10:35

In the first place, most people do not understand ABS. What does it mean? Auto-Brakeing-System, in short terms. It automatically, in a hard braking situation, does not allow the wheel to completely stop turning. This gives the operator of the unit the ability to steer the unit thus giving you control. I do not like ABS -- because if you "learn how to brake properly" you can do the same thing but you have to understand the system. This applies to both m/c and cars. It certainly will not give you a shorter stopping distance it just keeps the wheel from locking or stop turning completely.
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Thebreen
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 08 Mar 2016, 12:30

DaveR wrote:
In the first place, most people do not understand ABS.  What does it mean?  Auto-Brakeing-System, in short terms.  It automatically, in a hard braking situation, does not allow the wheel to completely stop turning.  This gives the operator of the unit the ability to steer the unit thus giving you control.  I do not like ABS --  because if you "learn how to brake properly" you can do the same thing but you have to understand the system.  This applies to both m/c and cars.  It certainly will not give you a shorter stopping distance it just keeps the wheel from locking or stop turning completely.  

not "Auto-Brakeing-System"

A = Anti-lock
B = Braking
S = System

Can you manually pulse the hand brakes as fast as ABS does? - very doubtful but possible, more likely in an emergency situation:

operator panics (unless well trained) and clamp on the brake levers
attempt to steer, does not go in the direction intended (because the wheels have locked).

I agree if you use non-ABS braking techniques on an ABS equipped vehicle (car/truck/motorcycle/airplane/etc.) you will not be taking full advantage of the what ABS offers -
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Dale N.
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 08 Mar 2016, 13:30

The battery I put in my SWing a year ago was a Battery Tender Lithium Ion battery. It weighs 1.75 Lbs and is a lot smaller than a lead acid battery. It has two + and two - posts on each end. I guess the extra two posts are for hooking up any accessories you might want. It also comes with an assortment of dense foam spacers with self-stick tape to stick to the battery to take up the extra space left over from the small size of the battery. It has 240 CCA and works very well on my SWing. You can see some of the spacers just to the left of the battery. Battery Tender also said my Battery Tender Jr. would work with this battery with no problems.
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DickO
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 08 Mar 2016, 13:50

Well, as has been mentioned before, I just shouldn't let the darn thing set so long without starting, riding, and recharging. My battery is just short of two years old and hasn't had a lot of use. Don't think I'll get another battery tender as such. The new charger I've got has a "float" function that should take care of everything if I just use it.
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hankster
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 08 Mar 2016, 16:44

I used to work as an engineering tech developing ABS for Bendix (when it was still Bendix). Very very few drivers can stop in a shorter distance than ABS can. A few of our test drivers could do it, but then they spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week test driving vehicles. The biggest thing to remember when you have ABS, and are trying to stop quickly, is to jam on the brakes as hard as you can and not let off. Let the ABS do it's thing, trying to "outsmart" it will only increase your stopping distances.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 08 Mar 2016, 17:25

I agree. Where the ABS is most helpful is in unexpected events. When you come around a curve and a deer jumps out in front, that's an ABS situation. When the event is sudden and unexpected it's very unlikely anyone can react as fast as the ABS system can. The ABS also takes advantage of the not requiring any response from the driver/rider than dynamiting the brakes. That means the brakes are applied as fast as the rider's reaction time will allow, no need to modulate either brake, no need to be concerned about using too much front brake. Add to that the advantage of being able to steer with maximum braking being applied.
I was doubtful with ABS on a bike at first but after experimenting on downgrades on gravel roads became a believer. I'll bet on ABS being better any time you're on a gravel or sandy road and the need for a sudden stop occurs. Ditto for wet paved roads. In fact in 99.99% of the time I'd argue ABS is better than depending on human skill.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 08 Mar 2016, 20:59

The maximum traction a tire has when braking is just before it starts to loose traction. ABS systems keeps your tires at that maximum traction. It also allows you to keep steering control because your wheels will not lock. My 2¢.
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DaveR
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 08 Mar 2016, 21:50

I guess to each his own. I do not and I mean do not like ABS. The added expense is enough! It is like a lot of the engineering upgrades it prices the equipment so out of reach one can not afford to purchase it.
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Easyrider
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Tue 08 Mar 2016, 23:03

DaveR wrote:
I guess to each his own.  I do not and I mean do not like ABS.  The added expense is enough! It is like a lot of the engineering upgrades it prices the equipment so out of reach one can not afford to purchase it.

I believe that if I had ABS on my first Swing, I would not have rear ended a car. I repaired my Swing myself, drove it for a year, then replaced it with a new 2013 Swing with ABS.
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Art
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Wed 09 Mar 2016, 00:05

the facts are the facts: a highly skilled driver / rider can out brake ABS on clean, dry pavement, and only there, and we're talking pro level drivers / riders
in all other conditions the ABS wins, though not alway by a lot
with 30 years of riding i still goof sometimes, and just last year I lowsided on the 3 sisters by grabbing too much brake in a decreasing radius turn
ABS might have prevented that crash
It does however add cost, complexity, and dificulty of repair to the braking system
On the plus side, if you ABS is toast, you just have regular brakes, they don't go away
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Bcook01
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Wed 09 Mar 2016, 06:36

DaveR wrote:
I guess to each his own.  I do not and I mean do not like ABS.  The added expense is enough! It is like a lot of the engineering upgrades it prices the equipment so out of reach one can not afford to purchase it.

Depends on what you feel your life is worth!

Bob
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hankster
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Wed 09 Mar 2016, 07:50

Art wrote:
the facts are the facts: a highly skilled driver / rider can out brake ABS on clean, dry pavement, and only there, and we're talking pro level drivers / riders

That's the true, the percentage is very small. Even with that F1 Teams found it to be an advantage and were using it on their cars until it was banned by FIA.
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DaveR
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Wed 09 Mar 2016, 09:58

Ride on everyone and be safe! Even the best of the best have accidents. Be sure to wear your protective gear when you ride. Many of us will say, "well, i'm just going a little ways so I will not bother with all the gear!" This is where we get into trouble. Even ABS will not always supercede good common sense.
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Greysilver
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Wed 09 Mar 2016, 10:39

I'm with ex david. It is those unexpected stops that ABS is for.
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Art
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Wed 09 Mar 2016, 11:09

Like the squirrel crossing (or just sitting in)the road in that blind decreasing radius turn
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Wed 09 Mar 2016, 14:14

If your bike has functioning ABS and you really don't like it you can always disable it. I'll bet few do though. Just because you have it doesn't mean one can ride like a fool and expect it to save the day.
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gremlin
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Wed 09 Mar 2016, 15:09

Art wrote:
Like the squirrel crossing (or just sitting in)the road in that blind decreasing radius turn

If that squirrel sat in front of me, I'd be driving straight over it. What a Face Drivers and riders dodging wildlife are a major cause of fatalities in Oz. It takes a bit of nerve, but most of the time it is safer.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Wed 09 Mar 2016, 19:35

Indeed, when I first started commercial driving after retiring from the FAA that was stressed over and over, "you don't try to dodge an animal that darts out in front of the bus". It's surprisingly difficult to get over the urge to do so. I wiped out one large owl north of Sacramento, a coyote in Eastern Washington and what might have been a dog in Montana driving charter buses.
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gremlin
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PostSubject: Re: ABS Lite Stays On   Wed 09 Mar 2016, 19:45

Of course this idea of:  "drive over them"  does not work in every situation.  I remember riding out to a mine site in the Northern Territory, when I encountered a water buffalo in a long sweeping curve. There was no time to play Crocodile Dundee and  I took the " alternative route" and ended up bogged in the red mud and covered from top to bottom.  That round went to the buffalo.............and since he was a Territorian he would have spun a nice tale about it when he got back to his mob.

" />
( that picture is not of me, but it looked just like that...........)

" />

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