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 Disappointed in high speed hiway travel

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john grinsel
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:21 pm

But I have owned new TMAX----have you? Most Harleys with owner "performance " are slower than stock....but make lots of noise. My Harley ownership goes back to 1956.....and yours? HD usually fast only in owner's mind-----they do work at 55-60 mph however and lots of dealers in US for when they break!

Scooters works fine for what they are.....and your feet can stay dry.....but not sub for real motorcycle......if that is what rings your bell
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:05 pm

john grinsel wrote:
But I have owned new TMAX----have you?   Most Harleys with owner "performance " are slower than stock....but make lots of noise.   My Harley ownership goes back to 1956.....and yours?  HD usually fast only in owner's mind-----they do work at 55-60 mph however   and lots of dealers in US for when they break!

John, the maxi's and the big Electra Glide are not even in the same class.  Stop light drag racing, and how "fast" the bike is does not even enter into the equation when we go looking for a touring bike.  Mine is faster than yours, yadda yadda, is child's play.

It's like on our recent Alaska trip on the Harley when we left Edmonton, Alberta at about 7:00 AM mountain time and pulled into Thunder Bay, Ontario at 8:00 AM the next morning.  My wife slept on the pillion on the Harley for about 5 hours that night.  We had gear strapped to the luggage rack on the King Tour-Pak.  She just slid down in the seat, using the stuff on the luggage rack for a headrest, and was sleeping sound when we got to Winnipeg in the middle of the night.  Then found the gas station closed on TransCanada, so I had go north into town and I found a Esso station open at 1:30 in the morning.  When I pulled up to the pump and shut the bike down my wife woke up and says, "where are we?"  And we pulled into Thunder Bay when the sun came up not feeling the least bit sore or worn out after over 1,200 miles in under 24 hours.

You ain't gonna do that on no T-max or any other scooter.

Compare the two:
One is a big purpose-built luxury touring machine with
- supremely comfortable factory leather seats
- air suspension
- big fairing with lowers that includes heating vents for cold weather, or fresh air vents for hot
- enough lights on it so it looks like an 18-wheeler rolling across the high plains in the middle of the night, with an alternator to match
- has a big powerful long-stroke V-twin that delivers more torque at idle than the Silver Wing makes flat out
- gets mid-40's fuel mileage, two-up, pulling a trailer. Drop the trailer and it gets 48-50 mpg loaded to full gross weight
- can carry 560 lbs of rider, passenger, luggage and gear - and do it comfortably without affecting handling at all
- superior tire life
- has factory cruise-control
- has factory sound system
- is fabulously easy to service because everything is out in the open where it's easy to get at
- has dual 12V power outlets for cell phones and a built-in air compressor to air the suspension or repair or air up flat tires on the road

The other is a scooter that
- has a little high-strung engine that has to spin 5,000+ rpm to make any power
- gets terrible gas mileage for it is
- has no range because it only carries about 4 gallons of gas
- has little tires on it that don't get very good tire life
- has under-seat storage that only has about the same capacity as one saddle bag on the Harley
- has vinyl seats that aren't all that comfortable after a couple hours in the saddle
- requires periodic belt changes, where the Harley's final lasts 100,000+ miles at less cost for the belt
- everything is buried in injection molded plastic and nothing is easy to get at for service

The scooter is great for what it was made for, where the Harley is not because it's too big and heavy and a chore to muscle it around in stop and go and city riding.  But you point these bikes out to the open road and say, "breakfast on the opposite coast?  Let's roll...." and I'll leave your T-max in the dust so fast it'll make every muscle you got ache just thinking about it.

You can't compare apples and oranges except to say one has a smooth skin and is red and the other is orange and kinda wrinkly. We bought Silver Wings and used them for touring bikes. They were OK. But they in no way, shape, or form match the Harley if you're going to put on serious miles. And this is an evaluation that nobody else but you can make as to whether or not a maxi-scooter is what you want in a motorcycle. The maxi's can be used for long-distance touring but we felt they were the ultimate compromise to use them for that. On the other hand, they are SUPERB for commuting and shorter distance trips. But for me and my wife, we decided we no longer wanted to put up with the pain of putting in 700 mile average days on them when we go touring.
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dalehazelton
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:41 pm

This is a SW forum and obviously people here think it is 'the best.' I have owned an ST1300 with abs, a VFR800, cruisers, smaller scooter, bigger scooter, dual sport, BMW airhead....and at the time they are all the best for what you want THEN and their intended purposes. There is no ONE best bike, your roads and riding parameters constantly change. And so does your idea of 'best.' Fast is not best. Comfort is 'bester' to me at my point in my life so that's what I'm seeking.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:17 pm

Truly it's different strokes for different folks. At one time I though my '49 Triumph Thunderbird was the bees knees, hot stuff, etc. I went through a lot of bikes over the next 56 years and got stuck on Goldwings of all models for around the last 15 or so years. Maxi scooters now fill the bill for me because I'm not making long trips these days. I do miss the absolute quietness and smooth ride of the Big Wing which I'd argue no HD could match for long hauls. I don't believe a scooter is a sport bike or a long distance tourer, but there comes a time in ones life when one fits in well. I probably wouldn't pick on HDs as much if their riders didn't sneer at my scooter. I don't get that kind of crap from riders of other makes and not from all HD riders. But it's hard to argue that a lot of Harley riders are sold on the image and not the bike. They even have clothing 'botiques' so they can buy their uniforms. Looking alike somehow enhances one's individuality.
All bikes are great for someone, what is great right now might not be later. Or it might still be. Different strokes...
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:30 pm

dalehazelton wrote:
This is a SW forum and obviously people here think it is 'the best.' I have owned an ST1300 with abs, a VFR800, cruisers, smaller scooter, bigger scooter, dual sport, BMW airhead....and at the time they are all the best for what you want THEN and their intended purposes. There is no ONE best bike, your roads and riding parameters constantly change. And so does your idea of 'best.' Fast is not best. Comfort is 'bester' to me at my point in my life so that's what I'm seeking.

That's what I'm saying.  The Silver Wing definitely is not the fastest of the maxi's.  So why bother buying one if that's all you focus on, is who won the stop light drags the other day?
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:21 pm

exavid wrote:
I probably wouldn't pick on HDs as much if their riders didn't sneer at my scooter.

Paul, in our local H.O.G chapter there is three ladies that ride Burgmans while their husbands are on Harley's.  They go on chapter rides all the time on those Burgmans.  They got them because the Harley Dynas or Softails are too heavy so they bought something they can handle.

If you want to know the truth, after being on both sides of the fence, I have found there's a lot more stereotyping and derogatory comments that goes on by metric riders where Harley riders are concerned, than the other way around.  On the Harley forum there is LOTS of metric riders on there, testing the waters because they are thinking about buying a Harley.  There is very few Harley riders on other forums on the internet because they, and what they enjoy riding, gets constantly bashed and ridiculed by metric riders.

It doesn't really bother me because I'll explain my viewpoint and don't get bent over it.  But I was on that maxi scooter forum at one time where Harley bashing reigns supreme and they are all the top-tier riders on earth (or so they think).  When we bought our first Harley the bashing was just constant.  And I finally sent that woman that runs it an email and told her to shove her forum right up her a$$ sideways and take me off it. Because it's the same little group on there every day anyway, and nobody else hardly posts to it.

So that's my take on it.  You show up at one of our H.O.G chapter rides sometime as my guest - you will be welcomed to ride with us, nobody will sneer at you, and you'll make a lot of new friends who are very passionate about their bikes and riding them.  You go try to join the Hells Angels or something and it might be different.  But unfortunately, the stereotyping of the Harley demographic by metric riders is more slanted towards the attitude of the Angels than what is reality in the rest of Harley riders in general.
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model28a
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:33 pm

frustrated Moderator hat on, Dale has brought his post back on topic. I understand how easy, and even necessary sometimes it is to drift off topic. Out of respect to Dale if we want to continue to debate scooters versus Harley Davidsons perhaps we should start a topic of its own.

Smile  Moderator hat off, Chris if I could still physically still get/sit on a Harley property set up for long-distance touring, and I had to go over 1,200 miles in under 24 hours, I would prefer the Harley over a scooter.
I'm glad I can at least still do 400 to 700 mile days on my Silverwing. Cool
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:15 pm

model28a wrote:
frustrated Moderator hat on, Dale has brought his post back on topic.

Whoops! My apologies to Dale there. I tend to get sidetracked when talking to ANY motorcyclists because I enjoy meeting them too much and talking bikes and riding.

You really think tires are going to fix the issues you had when the ones you got are perfectly fine? Sure, you got a few years on them, but if they aren't cracked on the sidewalls and the tread is just a bit harder than what it was when they were new -- so what? They'll just wear longer.

I've actually taken tires that have been worn in the center from stand-up touring before, put the bike on the service lift, and run the tire and cut the round shape back into off the sides of the tread with a tire cutting disc in the hand grinder to get a few more miles out of them before they hit the wear bars.

Somebody would have to show me some serious proof that I got a tire out of balance, a separated belt, or a snake in one of the belts before I'd replace a perfectly good tire.
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DanB
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:47 pm

I sold my Burgman Exec a few months ago and before that had a few Goldwings too. Touring bikes are naturally heavier bikes that excel at eating road miles in greater comfort than other bikes. That isn't to say one couldn't ride long distance on smaller, lighter bike. I haven't had my SW on a long distance ride yet but I had ridden a friend of mine's up in the Northern Cascades for about 500 miles. It was comfortable and could easily keep up with my friends Goldwing even on the interstate. It was however bit buzzier than my Goldwing and Burgman. If I were doing 2up touring again it would definitely be on a GL 1800. But my wife isn't into the long rides anymore but is OK with day rides as the SW meets our needs just fine. After 2 drive belt failures on my Burgman Exec. I've decided to pass them up even though they make a better long distance tourer to me than the SW. I've long distance toured on my Burgman 400 too as nearly any bike can be ridden for the long ride. But since I'm not doing this kind of riding anymore the SW is perfect for me as it can do it all, not perfectly, but pretty darn good.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:00 pm

I agree, the HD would be superior to a maxi scooter for a long haul. Whether it would be the best among touring bikes... let's leave that up to our own preferences. I think we can say the big Harley, Honda Goldwing and BMW 1600GT all are great touring bikes for eating miles across country.
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:04 pm

Honda built the Silver Wing as a compromise bike all the way around. It wasn't the fastest or most powerful, nor the fanciest with the most gizmo's on it. Nor the most expensive of the maxi's.

What killed it was the fact that it was too expensive compared to the mid-sized bikes like the CTX700 - and the fact that the competition beat Honda at supplying what the majority of maxi-scooter buyers wanted. So I think that's why Honda abandon it and focused on the mid-sized motorcycles. They don't have much market share in the US anymore as it is, and it would've been expensive to re-design the Silver Wing for a market where there is heavy competition.
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:17 pm

exavid wrote:
I think we can say the big Harley, Honda Goldwing and BMW 1600GT all are great touring bikes for eating miles across country.

The concept of the "touring" maxi-scooter came from Europe, and not the US. In Europe entire countries are no bigger than a couple states in the US. And touring on one there is more practical.

We met a young Japanese couple that had flown to California, rented a Harley Tri-Glide, and rode it to Sturgis this year. When we met them they were taking lots of pictures with a high-end Nikon camera in Spearfish. They were two of the most wide-eyed tourists we had ever seen. Their English was really hard to understand, but they had NEVER seen anything like it. A journey of epic proportions to get there from California (according to them), a motorcycle rally that takes up several thousand square miles of room in two states and is the size of all of Japan, and thunder from thousands and thousands of Harleys rolling on I90 that can be heard 5 miles from the freeway.

Kind of puts things in perspective as far as touring here vs touring overseas - and what the designers of these bikes were thinking when they designed them.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:42 pm

Sometimes we forget how blessed we are in the US and Canada. We have most of a large continent to roam with until recently no passports or official papers. We still have a beautiful continent to ride with some of the greatest geographic features in the world. I've visited all the continental states and four of the Canadian provinces, some with a truck camper, some via private airplane and many on motorcycles. Every place has something fine to see or experience. You can go to some the larger cities of the world or find areas with miles and miles of solitude. Climate varies from the harshest arctic weather to surfing shores in California, mountains and desert. Having visited Japan as an early teenager and lived on Okinawa I can appreciate how a Japanese couple would react to open space of which they have little.
Every morning when I get up (at my age that's a bonus) I give thanks for having been born here and having had the means to see this part of the world. We are blessed.
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hotwings
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:58 am

Nicely said exavid. I've often said this to my wife, even in our neck of the woods we can travel about 45 minutes south from the house and be at Sandbanks provincial park where on a hot summer day you would think you were in the Bahamas. About an hour north you can be in a boreal forest with miles of total solitude. A half hour east puts you in a perfect sized historical city. Two hours west puts you in the major city of Toronto (however I avoid that one as much as possible Laughing).
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oldgwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:45 am

exdavid well said,I've traveled some Cool in my 78 years and while I enjoyed most of the other places it was always nice to come home. I'm in the middle of some of the nicest riding country that I've been in but like I said have enjoyed the others as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:46 am

I live in York, a city that still has it's Medieval city walls, York Minster a 11th Century cathedral and there's stuff here going back to the Vikings, and the Romans. I'm within a hours ride of a lot of North Yorkshire market towns, ruined castles, abbeys, and monasteries, the North York Moors, Whitby, Robin Hood's Bay. Then there's the Howardian Hills, the Victorian spa town of Harrogate and on into the Yorkshire Dales (for pie and mash far better that anything I've eaten in London), Masham for the Black Sheep Brewery, and on to nearby Ripon or Fountains Abbey. I'm a hours ride away to Kingston upon Hull for North Sea ferries to Belgium and Holland, and I can easily get into the flatlands of Lincolnshire by going over the Humber Bridge at Hull.

I can head West over the Pennines to Cumbria and the English Lake District where I spent last weekend and went over a couple of the Lakeland passes. Then there's neighbouring West Yorkshire which is more ethnically diverse than North Yorkshire and I'll head over to Leeds just for a salt beef (corned beef) sandwich at my favourite Jewish sandwich shop. Sometime I'll head West over the Pennines into Lancashire or Cheshire, I haven't been into Wales for many a year.

I can go also go West over the Pennines again and then head North and be into Scotland in about three hours from leaving home. Or head into the North East counties of Northumberland and County Durham.

Apart from Lincolnshire I don't need to cross the East/West line of the M62 motorway to have great places to ride or visit. The exception this year being the Muppets meeting at the Imperial War Museum at Duxford in Cambridgeshire a couple of months ago. This reminded me a lot of the monotonous rides down there to the East Anglian ferry ports of Felixstowe and Harwich which I alway found mind numbingly tedious.

For years now I've use the M62 motorway as a modern day Hadrians Wall to divide the North and South. For riding and places of interest, I prefer to stay in the North.


Last edited by Meldrew on Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:13 am

This was the same monotonous ride as riding down there to the East << Meldrew's line made me smile add West here to that. I told my daughter on her first western bike trip, when you cross the big muddy it's miles and miles of miles of miles, punctuated by areas of great interest Up the western side of o-HI-o going north or south, mostly flat farm land, corn beans corn beans beans corn with a dash of wheat or Canola.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:27 pm

Chris Olson wrote:
Honda built the Silver Wing as a compromise bike all the way around.  It wasn't the fastest or most powerful, nor the fanciest with the most gizmo's on it.  Nor the most expensive of the maxi's.

No they didn't, when it came out about 15 years ago the vast majority of maxi scooters were single-cylinder 250’s like the Honda Helix, and Foresight, Yamaha Majesty, Piaggio X9, Malaguti Madison, and most manufacturers were just bringing in 400’s. There was Piaggio's early 500 which was recalled, and Aprilia had the 500 Atlantic. They were all single cylinder maxis.

When Honda rolled the Silver Wing out, it was a non ABS version and it's only rival was the also recently introduced 650 Burgman, then along came the Yamaha 500 TMax, so there was a choice of three twin-cylinder maxi scooters.

I don't think the Silver Wing was built as a compromise to anything, it was just Honda's take on a big comfortable maxi scooter. At the time there was a lot of interest in the twin-cylinder Honda FBS 400 scooter which was shown at a few trade shows and never made it into production, we got the Silver Wing. The fact that apart from a cosmetic face lift a few years ago, it's still basically the same scooter that came out in 2000.

It's not a motorcycle, and it's not a toy version of a Gold Wing for ex-Gold Wing owners that are getting on a bit and want to hang onto the Honda and Wing names, it's a twist n'go maxi scooter. You ride it like a maxi scooter, it handles like a maxi scooter, you load stuff onto it, and get out into rainy weather on it. You get the usual sarcastic remarks that it's not a proper motorcycle from riders who know squat about them, have never ridden one, wouldn't bee seen dead on one. Then sometime in the future when backs or knees are knackered some end up buying one. They turn up occasionally on forums like this wanting to know how to start them, how to put them on the centre stands, how to do all the basic stuff.






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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:53 pm

Well stated sir.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:00 pm

There was something romantically 'Orient Express' about living where I did in Belgium for those few years; Within 90 minutes' ride were five different countries and two or three more if I rode all day.

I met a motorcyclist at Stonehenge earlier in the year and exchanged a few words:
'Got far to go?'
'Another couple of hours'.
'Have you come far?'
'From Hong Kong'.
He'd ridden all the way (except for the Channel Crossing).

I could set out from here and ride all the way to Shanghai - 7,506 miles.

Crossing borders and seeing diverse cultures is fun.
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:07 pm

Meldrew wrote:

When Honda rolled the Silver Wing out, it was a non ABS version and it's only rival was the also recently introduced 650 Burgman, then along came the Yamaha 500 TMax, so there was a choice of three twin-cylinder maxi scooters.

I see what you're saying. My thoughts were that Honda could've put more gizmos on the Silver Wing, from heated grips to whatever. And they could've put a bigger engine in it to give it more power. But they chose the compromise route, letting Suzuki have the heated grips, electronic shifting, powered windscreen, etc., with a higher price.

I think Honda chose to compromise on that to offer them at a lower price than the competition. But the competition won. The Silver Wing is out of production and new 2013's still sitting on dealer showroom floors that they can't sell, even at reduced price. The Burgman lives on.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:48 pm

The 650 Burgman was pretty basic when it came out, non adjustable screen and no passenger backrest. The Burgman Executive came later with electric screen and passenger backrest. I bought a 08 Burgman Executive the first with heated grips and seats as standard kit.

It was still like any other maxi scooter, the OE screen was rubbish and was changed for a French made Secdem because the replacement Givi was far too tall. The Suzuki leg wind deflectors I fitted were useless too, they came back too far on the footboards and it was hard to get my feet out when stopping. I removed them the day after I installed them.

Once the novelty of moving the electric screen up and down and folding the electric mirrors mirrors in, playing with Manual mode, and the Power switch wears off, and warming your butt cheeks up just because you can, all the stuff on the Burgman is reduced to being toys you play with to relieve the boredom of a long ride.

I've had heated grips and wind deflectors on my Silver Wing since new, the Honda wind deflectors are better than the Burgmans and the Honda is a lot lighter too which for me makes it a better tourer.







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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:02 pm

Chris Olson writes:
The Silver Wing is out of production and new 2013's still sitting on dealer showroom floors that they can't sell, even at reduced price.

Well first of all it might well be that in North America a decision has been taken not to import the Silver Wing, but it is certainly not out of production. It is true that all UK imports are of the '2007' model, but that simply indicates that the model hasn't been in any way updated since then.

The 'updated' model is very much alive and kicking on the Continent (of Europe that is) - complete with minor modifications to the plastic and a double headlight.

My current one was purchased just two months ago, and manufacture date was one month before that.

My previous Wing was written off by a delightful car driver who thought it would save time to run over me rather than go round! The loan bike was a Burgman 650, which in its own right was a fine machine. My views of it though are fairly close to those of Meldrew, and certainly I found it less satisfying and less comfortable that the Wing. Added to that it was still the best part of £2000 more expensive than my new Wing - even after I'd paid out for wind deflectors, heated grips, and Givi adjustable.

With reference to other comments above I do find that HD riders do seem to find it unacceptable to be overtaken by a scooter, but then it really is difficult not do so! I do though always give a cheery wave and genuinely wish them every happiness in their choice of machine.

For my money, my choice is the Wing for ease of mobility in town, and for easy journeying for pretty well any distance. It's a delight in all circumstances. Equally I enjoy my other vehicles (bigger-engined bike, and car when circumstances dictate).

My pleasure in and on my own vehicles derives from the fact that I chose them because I like them. That says nothing whatsoever about what other people choose, so there's no issue of what is better than what! Tastes differ and that's very fortunate for most of us.

Please all of you do just carry on deriving as much pleasure as possible from riding whatever bike meets your needs and your pocket.

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dalehazelton
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:39 pm

I think my original question had a lot to do with really beat up roads and moronic drivers trying to kill me (although the weird harmonic that occurred between 60-65 still has me puzzled).

The adjustable windscreen was fantastic. The mirrors NEVER vibrated to the point of useless. Having an underdash glove box in addition to the two cubbies was great. Included cigarette lighter is a no brainer. It was heavy moving it around but that all disappeared in motion. Yes, I had to think about where I would park it because pushing it up an even minor uphill grade was next to impossible for me. But again, the simplicity of the Wings drive train is what wins me over.

My VFR is a delight on good roads. Get on any pockmarked road and to me it's torture. Do those roads on a dual sport and you probably don't even care. Maybe I need the new Africa Twin coming out...
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:58 pm

dalehazelton wrote:
But again, the simplicity of the Wings drive train is what wins me over.

Same here. When we decided to try the Silver Wings for long distance touring, the first thing I look at is simplicity, and can it be fixed on the road at decent cost and availability of parts. We have been left stranded by every touring motorcycle we ever owned at one point except our GL1000, which never got enough miles on it:
GL1100 - broken timing belt that wiped out the left bank block (cracked cylinder due to broken off exhaust valve head) in Louisiana. Traded it on new GL1200 on the spot.

GL1200 - failed alternator stator in Arizona. No parts in stock, had been discontinued by Honda. None in junk yards because stators had all been robbed. Traded it on new GL1500 on the spot.

GL1500 - failed driveline and rear end in Rapid City, South Dakota. Stripped the splines out of the pinion cup. No parts available from Honda to fix it - had been discontinued due to introduction of the GL1800. Put in junkyard driveshaft and rear end at cost of $2,700

GL1800 - frame broke in Ontario, Canada. Limped it home and Honda refused to cover it under warranty. After threat of lawsuit, dealer made deal to trade it on two new ST1100's.

ST1100 - fuel pump failed in Vancouver, BC. Honda had no parts in stock for it - 7-10 days to get one. Went to NAPA and found one that looked the same and cobbled it in there. Cobbled up pump was still in bike when sold.

So I've learned that they all break if you ride 'em long enough and put enough miles on. And when they leave you stranded thousands of miles from home, how well the dealer, service and parts network is able to get your bike back on the road without ruining your trip because of excessive cost is the one I will choose today.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:45 pm

dalehazelton wrote:
The adjustable windscreen was fantastic. The mirrors NEVER vibrated to the point of useless. Having an underdash glove box in addition to the two cubbies was great. Included cigarette lighter is a no brainer. It was heavy moving it around but that all disappeared in motion. Yes, I had to think about where I would park it because pushing it up an even minor uphill grade was next to impossible for me.

The 650 Burgman windscreen was too short and gave no weather protection to the hands, I ordered a larger screen within a few weeks of taking delivery of mine. The electric mirrors didn't vibrate because they're mounted to the bodywork, but in wet weather sent rain drops off the mirrors down onto my boots. Even worse was being dazzled at night by the low mirrors catching the headlight beams of cars behind me and really annoying on unlit rural roads. I often had to fold them in. That central glovebox wasn't well thought out either, if I plugged in my TomTom sat nav/GPS fitted with a normal 12v cigarette lighter plug the door wouldn't close. A fault it shared with the 2003-07 400 Burgmans and probably earlier ones too.

The FJS UK and Euro spec Silver Wings have the 12v socket in the lockable left glovebox which is ideal. I could plug in the TomTom and lock the lid, or detatch it from the Dennis B mount and lock it away.

Now I do the same with my Garmin Zūmo there plenty of room to store it there, even fitted with a 4"or 6" RAM arm and attached to a large Touratech lockable cradle.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:25 pm

Mine Exec was a used one and had a Clearview XL with vent. You put it up and could ride without your visor - the bubble was that perfect and quiet.

On the SW I added my own cigarette lighter (cannibalized from a dead jump starter pack) with wire and fuse holder I had so cost was zero. I made my own RAM mount so the only cost was for the ball. I had to take a small rat tail file to the underside of the cubby door and flange and make allowance for the cord from my GPS running in there. No visible marks and it all worked out fine.

The glovebox on the Burgman 400 was deeper than the one on the 650. More machine, more stuff back there I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:03 pm

I installed a 12VDC socket in both SWs I've owned. I don't know why they don't come as OEM in US models. There's the flat round spot in the front of the left cubby for the socket that's not there. I mounted a socket in the spot Honda made for it and wired it back directly to the battery through an inline fuse holder with the fuse back close to the battery for ease of access and best protection of the wire in case of a short somewhere. You don't even have to take off much plastic, just the rear left quarter panel and the battery box cover. It's easy to fish a wire through. It's a good idea to leave some slack in the wire in front of the cubby so one can get the cubby out of the panel far enough to disconnect the socket if needed. It's really odd that Honda left this handy socket out of the US bikes. The B650 has one and my BMW 650GT also has one in that location.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:30 pm

exavid wrote:
I installed a 12VDC socket in both SWs I've owned. I don't know why they don't come as OEM in US models..

Yeah, for something so simple that was a huge oversight on Honda's part. I put one in both of our Silver Wings too. Even our 30 year old Harley Electra Glide has two of 'em - one in the dash and one in the Tour-Pak. Don't know what Honda was thinking there.
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PostSubject: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:48 pm

Am I missing something or what but what has beating Harley's from the lights or 12v dc sockets got to do with the original question.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:11 pm

vmaximus wrote:
Am I missing something or what but what has beating Harley's from the lights or 12v dc sockets got to do with the original question.

Yes, you're missing something. The original topic was discussed and the thread has morphed into a discussion of other features - the lastest being those 12VDC power outlets that US riders have to add in on the Silver Wing. Even though the hole is already provided for it, they leave it out. And nobody is sure why, because evidently the European models have one in there.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:04 pm

Chris Olson wrote:
vmaximus wrote:
Am I missing something or what but what has beating Harley's from the lights or 12v dc sockets got to do with the original question.

Yes, you're missing something.  The original topic was discussed and the thread has morphed into a discussion of other features - the lastest being those 12VDC power outlets that US riders have to add in on the Silver Wing.  Even though the hole is already provided for it, they leave it out.  And nobody is sure why, because evidently the European models have one in there.

Yep my '08 Swing has one in there. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:24 pm

Chris with respect to you or anyone else on this forum I don't think that I am missing anything, Model 28a site admin put his moderator hat on and wrote on Sept 13th that Dale had brought the post back on track and that if we want to continue a debate scooters v Harley Davidson we should start a topic on its own. Since the topic is still titled Disappointment at high speed highway travel I would have assumed that is what we should reading about and discussing not the merits or faults of any other bike or scooter.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:27 pm

vmaximus wrote:
Chris with respect to you or anyone else on this forum I don't think that I am missing anything, Model 28a site admin put his moderator hat on and wrote on Sept 13th that Dale had brought the post back on track

Yes, however it is Dale's thread and he came back on a few posts ago, mentioning things about the windscreen on the Burgman and comparing a few things with those. As well as noting that power plug that he put in, which US models don't have. The original topic was pretty much discussed, and the thread changed a little bit, with Dale's input at the latter part of it here.

I mentioned the fact that us Americans like them 12VDC power plugs too, because even my 30 year old Harley, which is an American built motorcycle, came with them as standard equipment. So it is somewhat of a mystery to me why Honda would put those in the European models and omit them from the US models. That's all.

In all the time I've been on various forums I've never seen where an original topic that gets discussed, and not much more can be said about it, does not morph into something else if the thread stays alive, even sometimes by the OP. It sometimes irritates the Thread Cops but the thread is usually "owned" by the OP and he has the right to determine the direction of it, etc..

So if we're not supposed to be talking about those Burgmans, or Harleys, and power plugs and stuff, I'll just sort of set back and see what's left to discuss on the original topic. Smile
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:21 am

Digression is a sign of a wide ranging mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:34 pm

I am new to the site, but it occurs to me after spending much time on it before joining that there are a wide range of riders and riding experience 40+ years (including myself), and everyone has their opinion of what works for them (and that's fine). Where I think the contention comes from is when those personal views are imposed on others. We (mostly all) ride the Silver Wing because we want to, like to, and enjoy to (or other).

My view is that after riding virtual everything that is popular of the years (Including a Police 1000 for a living), that it is a simple, very reliable, versatile (across town or across the country), and most enjoyable mode of transportation, and at this point in my life "Yes", I like the twist and go simplicity, and the luxury of not having to fuss or worry about anything but pleasurable, and safe riding, whether for myself or +1 (wife).

I don't feel the need to impress, dress to impress (except for safety), make a statement, outrun, out-torque, or out HP anyone. (I did however when I was 16) ...times change, and time changes you.

There are some valid points (IMHOpinion), I have a Corbin leather seat, Givi AirFlow, Pirelli Diablos, and other accessories, because I felt these changes make this good mid-size cruiser even better, I think if you follow various posts your consensus will be similar.

This is what makes our Great Country Great, free choice and the freedom to chose, opinions are like something else, and everyone has one, it may work for you - but please do not imply it will work for me thank you - I will decide that, and have a wealth of knowledge on the subject to make an informed decision. Personally I love Honda's engineering, if you want to ride something else "have at"...
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:46 pm

FLY_DMy well said. You have summed up this topic nicely.
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dalehazelton
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:52 pm

FLY_DMy - agreed!
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:16 pm

X1
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:29 pm

Everybody is looking for something different in their riding experiences, whether it is daily commuting, day-tripping, short tours (2-3 days), medium tours (1 week), or long touring. Your age, physical condition and 'comfort requirements' are a factor, as well as your 'need' for speed, canyon-carver handling, and seat comfort.

It also depends on how well setup your bike is for you and your intended use. I have a Russel Day-Long saddle, and that makes a HUGE difference in comfort and how long you can ride in a day.
There are 2 of us who ride nearly identical SWs and tour together. His Russel seat was customized to accomodate his 6'4" frame and he happily rides 600 mile days.

I think that for 1-up riding, the SW is unbeatable for daily commuting, day-tripping, and short tours. I think it is extremely capable for medium tours. I haven't done any tours of more than a week, so I can't say for sure, but it seems to be reliable and comfortable.

I haven't done any 2-up riding, so I won't comment on that.

To the point of this thread.. Both of us experienced tire issues when we bought used SWs years ago. The bikes wandered, didn't corner well, jerked over grooves and tar snakes. Both were on their original tires, and to the naked eye both tires looked fine. Changing the tires made a world of difference, fixing all of the issues.

As to the comment that folks want to get the maximum use out of their tires I would respond that the tires are the only thing separating you from an unpleasant encounter with the pavement and the best investment of maintenance expense besides oil. My feelings on this may have something to do with the next point.

I live in Arizona, where temperatures can be brutal, distances are vast, and the speed limit is high. We spend most of our touring time at speeds greater than 70 MPH, with 85-90 MPH on certain interstate roads. Our SWs have no problem holding these sustained speeds and are smooth and comfortable for 1-up touring. We pay a substantial gas mileage penalty (38-44 mpg) at those highest speeds, but we make it up with a mileage bonus (58-62 mpg) when we tour through national parks and scenic areas with 45 (and lower) MPH signs.

The point of all this is that the machines are well designed, well built, and it's up to us as owners to ensure that they are well maintained to meet their design intent. We can add farkles to make them more comfortable and convenient, but in my mind there is no substitute for changing oil, filter and tires as soon as it's needed.

My Heidenau rear tire only lasts 6500 miles, but I will change it at 5500 miles if I am planning a 1000 mile trip. I would rather 'waste' the extra $15 worth of rubber than take a chance on a high speed blowout in a remote location involving cliffs.

These bikes should be easily capable of smooth 1-up rides at 60-90 MPH. If your SW isn't, then something is wrong and you should get it fixed for safety reasons.

Just my humble opinion, based on 48k miles on 2 SWs in 4.5 years
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:35 am

"As to the comment that folks want to get the maximum use out of their tires I would respond that the tires are the only thing separating you from an unpleasant encounter with the pavement and the best investment of maintenance expense besides oil."

Amen, Az Kicker. Pinching pennies at the risk of safety is a false economy. Same thing goes for helmets past their prime.

Bash (transportation safety attorney and former fire-fighter/EMT)
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:43 pm

If I'm honest, when I first got my 2002 SWing (used, 22K miles), I had issues about the handling also...seemed a bit squirrely at speed and tended to follow rain grooves a lot.

I've learned that the SWing is sensitive to tire type and tread AND to load arrangement. Because it has that big underseat cavity, sometimes we think we can just throw stuff in there and not worry about COG. I learned while touring on the machine that heavy stuff goes as far forward and as far down as possible, while the lighter stuff can go on top and aft.

I changed tires to the Michelin PowerPures, but put simply, they were bad. Did not like them a bit. Then changed to Pirelli Diablos...very happy with the handling at all speeds and load conditions. Doesn't seem as if it would change the handling that significantly, but it did, at least on my machine.

At first, I was of a mind to get rid of the SWing, but after getting the loading and tires sorted out over the last five years, I won't give it up...it's just too handy, with the storage, good handling, good power, reliability and ease of riding. I agree with the writer somewhere above...it really makes a nice solo touring machine...but I also use it pretty extensively on local runs...it'll rip off a 200-300 mile day with absolutely no worries. It's a keeper.

Take a look at the tires and at your loading practices. Good luck.



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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:59 pm

Interesting. I recently replaced the Metzlers on my BMW 650GT with Power Pures and find them to be excellent. I haven't had any real experience with them in the rain so far but for carving the curves they are great. We have a lot of road work going on around here with ground up pavement, tar snakes, pot holes, et al. Even with that the tires allow the bike to track like it's on rails. The tread pattern on the Power Pure tires looks a bit more like racing tire, less tread, more rubber so I'll find out about wet adhesion this winter.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:09 pm

I have Pilot 3 and 4s on my VFR and they stick like glue, even in rain. I think I put Pilot Sports on my Burgman Executive and it handled great.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:07 am

I returned home today after a trip to Germany, and today is the only day I wasn't riding in rain. I'm running Bridgestone Hoops and I had no problems at all in wet weather with them. Whether crawling along in heavy traffic or doing high speed overtaking or cruising.

My unlined Klim gear is fine but with it being cold on these rides I had to layer up a bit, usually my long sleeved Sympatex lined zip neck was sufficient although I had a lightweight fleece if it was needed. I was wearing a full rain suit over the top of the Klim yesterday, handy in heavy prolonged rain but a bit inconvenient for comfort breaks when I had to dig my way through multiple layers, plus a kidney belt.

I was wearing my Schuberth M1 open face helmet on this trip with the Schuberth M1 Cardo intercom clipped to the back of the helmet and Bluetoothed to my Garmin sat nav. The helmet is very comfortable as all the liner seams are heat welded and not stitched. Misting up isn't a problem with the M1 and neither was rain drops on the visor, the Wunderlich spoiler mounted on top of my Airflow deflects it all over the top of the helmet.

I also wore my neon red Olympia Moto Sports hi-vis vest to break up the all black Klim ensemble, I like a few extra pockets too.

I didn't have any problems with luggage either, I decided against using my tunnel bag because fully packed sometimes difficult to get on and off the Silver Wing for refuelling, especially when you're an old git like me.

Instead l took along my roll top hi-vis Cameron panniers inside my largest Ortlieb bag. Strapped on the passenger seat behind me the bag made a very comfortable back rest. On the return trip the panniers were filled with stuff, The idea was I use them as throw over panniers for all the usual stuff I buy in Germany, but as they still fitted into the Ortlieb I used them similar to the outward journey.

That's in addition to the large bag under the seat, and the Eagle Creek rucksack that contained all my overnight stuff for the ferry was in my Givi E55. So the Silver Wing was loaded outward and fully loaded on return, apart from being heavier to lift onto the main stand it was no different to riding it with the minimum of kit round the roads at home.

When I get round to cleaning all the road crap off of the Silver Wing I'll fit the longer cap screws to the RAM mount on the brake reservoir that kept working loose on the way up to Bremen. After I'd worked my magic with zip ties and electrical tape it gave no more trouble on rides out into East Frisia, the ride down to Aachen, and back via Brussels to Zeebrugge for the ferry yesterday.
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:24 am




applause applause applause applause


Nice report Meldrew and no complaints. Careful, you'll ruin your reputation. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:27 am

Chris Olson wrote:
john grinsel wrote:
But I have owned new TMAX----have you?   Most Harleys with owner "performance " are slower than stock....but make lots of noise.   My Harley ownership goes back to 1956.....and yours?  HD usually fast only in owner's mind-----they do work at 55-60 mph however   and lots of dealers in US for when they break!

John, the maxi's and the big Electra Glide are not even in the same class.  Stop light drag racing, and how "fast" the bike is does not even enter into the equation when we go looking for a touring bike.  Mine is faster than yours, yadda yadda, is child's play.

It's like on our recent Alaska trip on the Harley when we left Edmonton, Alberta at about 7:00 AM mountain time and pulled into Thunder Bay, Ontario at 8:00 AM the next morning.  My wife slept on the pillion on the Harley for about 5 hours that night.  We had gear strapped to the luggage rack on the King Tour-Pak.  She just slid down in the seat, using the stuff on the luggage rack for a headrest, and was sleeping sound when we got to Winnipeg in the middle of the night.  Then found the gas station closed on TransCanada, so I had go north into town and I found a Esso station open at 1:30 in the morning.  When I pulled up to the pump and shut the bike down my wife woke up and says, "where are we?"  And we pulled into Thunder Bay when the sun came up not feeling the least bit sore or worn out after over 1,200 miles in under 24 hours.

You ain't gonna do that on no T-max or any other scooter.

Compare the two:
One is a big purpose-built luxury touring machine with
- supremely comfortable factory leather seats
- air suspension
- big fairing with lowers that includes heating vents for cold weather, or fresh air vents for hot
- enough lights on it so it looks like an 18-wheeler rolling across the high plains in the middle of the night, with an alternator to match
- has a big powerful long-stroke V-twin that delivers more torque at idle than the Silver Wing makes flat out
- gets mid-40's fuel mileage, two-up, pulling a trailer. Drop the trailer and it gets 48-50 mpg loaded to full gross weight
- can carry 560 lbs of rider, passenger, luggage and gear - and do it comfortably without affecting handling at all
- superior tire life
- has factory cruise-control
- has factory sound system
- is fabulously easy to service because everything is out in the open where it's easy to get at
- has dual 12V power outlets for cell phones and a built-in air compressor to air the suspension or repair or air up flat tires on the road

The other is a scooter that
- has a little high-strung engine that has to spin 5,000+ rpm to make any power
- gets terrible gas mileage for it is
- has no range because it only carries about 4 gallons of gas
- has little tires on it that don't get very good tire life
- has under-seat storage that only has about the same capacity as one saddle bag on the Harley
- has vinyl seats that aren't all that comfortable after a couple hours in the saddle
- requires periodic belt changes, where the Harley's final lasts 100,000+ miles at less cost for the belt
- everything is buried in injection molded plastic and nothing is easy to get at for service

The scooter is great for what it was made for, where the Harley is not because it's too big and heavy and a chore to muscle it around in stop and go and city riding.  But you point these bikes out to the open road and say, "breakfast on the opposite coast?  Let's roll...." and I'll leave your T-max in the dust so fast it'll make every muscle you got ache just thinking about it.

You can't compare apples and oranges except to say one has a smooth skin and is red and the other is orange and kinda wrinkly.  We bought Silver Wings and used them for touring bikes.  They were OK.  But they in no way, shape, or form match the Harley if you're going to put on serious miles.  And this is an evaluation that nobody else but you can make as to whether or not a maxi-scooter is what you want in a motorcycle.  The maxi's can be used for long-distance touring but we felt they were the ultimate compromise to use them for that.  On the other hand, they are SUPERB for commuting and shorter distance trips.  But for me and my wife, we decided we no longer wanted to put up with the pain of putting in 700 mile average days on them when we go touring.
WOW 1200 miles in less than 24 hours. Your right I couldn't do that on my Silverwing. I couldn't even do that in a limo that I had someone else driving. Guess my health issues and age play into it.
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:27 pm

I have done more than 1000 miles in 24hrs on my Goldwing 1500. Though not by choice. I would not want to do that on any scooter I've ridden. A big, heavy cruising bike with a lot of vibrationless torque, very quiet engine, cruise control, big fairing and soft suspension is undoubtedly a better long distance machine. Much like comparing a small noisy car to a big, quiet sedan. That said I wouldn't want to make a ride like that unless I had to.

The scooter on the other hand is just fine for two or three hundred mile days, much better in traffic and congested areas and tight parking lots. A Goldwing is nearly the weight of two Silverwings and a handful in awkward places, slow speeds and such. The scooter is a breeze under those circumstances.
Per mile cost of riding any of the scooters I've owned is also probably a bit higher than the Goldwing. The scooter only got around 15-20% better mileage, and has an expensive belt that needs periodic replacing. Tire cost for the GW compared to the SW is about the same, a pair of scooter tires is just a bit over half of what tires for the GW cost but the SW tires only last about have as many miles. There is less maintenance on the GW. Oil cost is bit less for the SW because the GW uses twice as much at each change.

If you factor in original cost the scooter looks a lot better since you can almost buy three maxi scooters for the price of a Goldwing which approaches $30k.

It all depends on what your needs and wants are. I no longer take long cross country trips of a couple thousand miles or more like I used to. My advancing age makes the heavy GW more difficult to handle, arthritis isn't fun. The scooter allows me to stay on two wheels, have a lot of fun and get through traffic with ease. I've never dropped a scooter, yet but can't say the same about the GWs.

If it's cheap transportation one needs by all means go buy a seven year old Toyota Corrola with a few scratches and dents. That's cheaper to own than any bike. But seriously boring.
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dalehazelton
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:55 pm

Okay, I've put a thousand miles on the bike since I bought it. I've done some high-speed highway travel (a true 65 - 70 mph) and I'm becoming much happier with the bike. I have NOT experienced that weird harmonic like I did that one trip when I as loaded up and on a crappy road at a fixed high speed. I keep a real eye on tire pressure and on a good road surface I have zero complaints. When I go out now I pick the SW over my other bike because of the storage, and and now that the temp is dropping I want to be behind a good fairing and windscreen. I've ridden with some sportbike guys in twistys and because of the long wheelbase and small tires I have to take it easy but the bike easily catches up in the straights. I'm happy that I bought it. I still check out the BurgmanUSA forum and see people with driveline issues and am just glad I don't have to worry about that now.
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oldgwingguy
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PostSubject: Re: Disappointed in high speed hiway travel   Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:12 pm

If I were to do it over again I wouldn't change my choice, after 2 years without 2 wheels ( my wing ) I finally got some miles under me, 2000+ this year, with a poor wet start I'm making up it. A couple of 200+ miles days left me worn out but at 78+ with MG it's not a major concern. When I ride with someone it's with a 600 Burg and a Kaw Ninja or Triumph Trophy. 99% of the time it's on twisty S.E o-HI-o roads the 1% would be the 4 lane type no problems so far. I really like this ride for the side roads, forest service and township roads, some of which are gravel and it's no problem so far as handling. If there is one feature to not like it's the freewheeling under 2000 rpm but I'm getting used to that.
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