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 Model Year Updates/Changes ?

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Graham G
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PostSubject: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:47 pm

Hi,i'm new to the forum,only posted in introductions.
I'm thinking about returning to motorcyling in the UK,after a long lay off,(but we have been riding in the U.S.)
Me & SWMBO,are not as young as we used to be,so i'm thinking a scooter might be a good idea.
I have a couple of questions about the Silver Wing,which i'd like to ask.

Are there any worthwhile specification changes in the Model years,which would make buying a later Model advisable,there are quite a few 02-04 used ones at attractive prices,around at the moment.

I don't quite know how to put the next question,but here goes.
I've never ridden a Scooter,so do larger wheel diameter scooters,have more stability?,i've got nothing to base this on,it's just a question.
Cheers,Graham.
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:23 pm

Hello Graham, and welcome.

I don't think there are any obvious differences but it appears the post-2008 Silverwings have better fuel consumption.

I think - my personal view - is that Honda have made hidden changes over the years and, around 2008, made an adjustment which improved MPG. I have no evidence, just a hunch.

Having said that, the older models seem to perform well and just go on and on; there's a chap on here with a 2002(?) Silverwing with 179,000 on the clock!

Friends who have motorcycles and maxiscooters say the scooters 'turn in' more sharply when cornering - members here will confirm or deny that!

Maxiscooters have a low CofG so are very stable but the smaller wheels make for a bumpier ride - not a problem on good roads.
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phils a winger
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:48 pm

Hello Graham,

i came back to biking after 16 years abscence and started on a 125 scooter, swiftly progressed to a variety of 250 majesty's and finished up at an x max til last year i saw the light and bought the silver wing. Does everything a 98 majesty 250 could but with a lot more oomph and not too bad on fuel, 56mpg on average. Power wise pick your cruise, 65ish and grab a handfull then in next to no-time 85-90 is on the clock. Makes for rapid overtakes. Handling wise not bad once your used to it, not a sports bike and not honda 90 either
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exavid
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:13 pm

Scooters to tend to 'fall into' turns. That's due to the smaller and lighter wheels. Motorcycles with their larger wheels develop more gyroscopic force which tends to turn the fork away from the turn or resist turning. Rake and trail angles make some difference but not as much as the gyro effect. At speeds below 25mph or so my scooter tends to 'fall into the turn'; around 25-30mph the tendency to fall into the turn is overcome by the gyro force and it begins to need pressure holding it into the turn. This is just a bit over the speed that steering changes from 'normal' to counter steering. It's easy to experiment with a bicycle to notice these changes without danger of dropping an expensive scooter.
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GHM-PM
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:19 pm

If you have the dosh, I agree with the above get a 2008 or newer. The MPG will help you. In addition, look for one with ABS. If you find a smoking deal with a non_ABS model get it; but if not lean towards an ABS model.
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bandito2
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:29 am

I believe I read somewhere that 08 and later had an oxygen sensor added which helped the fuel injection control system provide a more accurate sense of what the engine is doing and thus could make for a more efficient fuel/air mixture. AH HA! Indeed, it is shown in the service manual wiring DIAGRAMS. (one for 02-07 and another for 08 & later which has the O2 sensor plus 2 other diagrams which are the ABS variants for those model years)

There were some changes to the body work, (the deck on top where the glove box lids were raised instead of being flush) but I'm not sure of the year the change for that was made.

Also, I noticed that the rear wing/passenger grab is different on some year models. I had bought a spare rear wing/passenger grab (model year not known) to put on my 2006. It was to be drilled to mount a top box. But it wouldn't fit correctly as the mount holes on the forward part of the rail/wing of the spare were spread further apart than the mount holes on the bike frame.

Most years the lower skirt is silver and others had the lower skirt the same color as the rest of the body panels... again, sorry but I'm not sure which years they were. Just a cosmetic change anyway I'm sure.

There may have been other revisions done but they may have been of little consequence to be noticed... at least until you start swapping parts from other years and notice small changes as I found. So yes, 08 and later with the O2 sensor would make them more desirable than the earlier models.
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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:53 pm

Gaham G.On most Wednesdays I ride to Southport on my Silverwing. I usually arrive about1-30to 2.pm and stay for an hour. I park up next to Silcocks carousel with the other bikes. Usually Iam the only maxi-scooter there. If you get out that way you could look at my bike and ask any thing about it. I will be the (very old ) man smoking a cigar Smile


Last edited by Old Limey on Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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DaveR
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:26 pm

For what it is worth; The ABS just gives you the ability to "steer" in a hard breaking situation. It does give you some added maintenance expense etc. As far as the smaller wheels, yes, you will notice the bumps more. Try to get one with the up-grade springs in the front forks. Also the Sliders in the drive system if you can find one. Mileage? Most all of them will average about 50 MPG U.S. Gal.
As far as any factory changes: not very many. Mine is a 2005 and it is about the middle of the road in production. I have coming up on 51,000 "smiles" on mine with all of the up-grades I could find. No problems very low to maintain. I change the oil every 4,000 and the belts when the v light comes on.
I like the easy step through mount, low C/G etc. It's not a motor cycle and I am glad it is not. Automatic, yes, not perfect but pretty close to it. I would not trade mine for any M/C. I can keep up with the best of them and pick up the parts when I follow them. Most of the time I am in the lead! Ha Ha.
79 years young
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Greysilver
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:59 pm

I think, not positive, that all Silverwings in 2011 and there after are ABS.
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GHM-PM
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:37 pm

Greysilver wrote:
I think, not positive, that all Silverwings in 2011 and there after are ABS.

I believe you are correct. And personally I have not EVER had any ABS specific problems or maintenance... But YMMV.
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rjdoles
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:55 pm

The 08 and newer models have an O2 sensor in the exhaust.

I believe that the earlier models used two open loop engine fuel maps for the fuel injection system. A map is a lookup table that is used to determine how much fuel to inject into the cylinders for a given rpm, throttle opening, temperature and air flow through the engine.

Open loop means that the fuel injection system is sending what it thinks is the correct amount of fuel. It has no way of knowing if that amount of fuel is correct.

The cold map runs the engine richer which allows for easier starts and better cold engine driveability but it uses more fuel. This is sort of like the enrichment (choke) on most carbureted honda motorcycles. The engine switches over to the warm map once the engine reaches a certain temperature threshold. The warm map runs the engine leaner for better fuel economy.

The 08 and newer models are also equipped with two maps. The cold map is still open loop and works the same as the older models. The warm map is different  because of the addition of the O2 sensor in the exhaust system which closes the loop.

The O2 sensor measures the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream. The warm map allows a a range of fuel for a given set of conditions, instead of just a single value. It is able to "fine tune" the amount of fuel injected into the cylinder based on feedback from the O2 sensor.

This fuel air ratio is maintained at or near stoichometric ratio's during steady state cruise. If there is excess O2 in the exhaust then the fuel injector reacts by increasing the amount of fuel that it injects into the cylinder until the exhaust stream reaches the ideal (stoichometric) mixture.

If there is a shortage of O2 in the exhaust then the fuel injection reacts by decreasing the amount of fuel that it injects into the cylinder until the exhaust stream reaches the ideal (stoichometric) mixture.

Stoichometric is the point where exactly all oxygen is consumed and all fuel is burned which should result in the lowest emissions and better fuel economy.

Stoichometric fuel/air ratio results in high combustion temperatures. The higher cylinder temperatures due to leaner mixtures at lower power levels are acceptable (small hot flame).

At higher throttle openings such as during acceleration or cruising at speeds above 5000 rpm, the fuel map adjusts the mixture richer than the stoichometric value to lower the peak cylinder temperatures while the engine is producing more power (big warm flame). It is one of the reasons why driving the Swing faster or more aggressively kills the mileage.

Hope this helps.


Last edited by rjdoles on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:00 am; edited 6 times in total
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:41 pm

Thank you for your most excellent explanation. applauseapplauseapplause
 
Tim
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Graham G
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:22 am

Thanks for all the replies & info.
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DonH
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:16 am

Thanks for that very informative explanation RJDOLES.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:09 pm


rjdoles wrote:
The 08 and newer models have an O2 sensor in the exhaust. <>The 08 and newer models are also equipped with two maps. The cold map is still open loop and works the same as the older models. The warm map is different  because of the addition of the O2 sensor in the exhaust system which closes the loop.

The O2 sensor measures the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream. The warm map allows a a range of fuel for a given set of conditions, instead of just a single value. It is able to "fine tune" the amount of fuel injected into the cylinder based on feedback from the O2 sensor.

This fuel air ratio is maintained at or near stoichometric ratio's during steady state cruise. If there is excess O2 in the exhaust then the fuel injector reacts by increasing the amount of fuel that it injects into the cylinder until the exhaust stream reaches the ideal (stoichometric) mixture.

If there is a shortage of O2 in the exhaust then the fuel injection reacts by decreasing the amount of fuel that it injects into the cylinder until the exhaust stream reaches the ideal (stoichometric) mixture.

Stoichometric is the point where exactly all oxygen is consumed and all fuel is burned which should result in the lowest emissions and better fuel economy.

Stoichometric fuel/air ratio results in high combustion temperatures. The higher cylinder temperatures due to leaner mixtures at lower power levels are acceptable (small hot flame).

At higher throttle openings such as during acceleration or cruising at speeds above 5000 rpm, the fuel map adjusts the mixture richer than the stoichometric value to lower the peak cylinder temperatures while the engine is producing more power (big warm flame). It is one of the reasons why driving the Swing faster or more aggressively kills the mileage.
Mr Doles

Since you have such a thorough understanding of the O2 sensor function and how it interacts with the Coolant Temperature sensor, can you elaborate on how the Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor interacts with the ECM and Coolant Temp sensor to effect "performance" in an Open Loop (pre '08) system? 

There are several "black boxes" available which purport to increase performance but, in fact, are nothing more than simple resistors or NTC Negative Temperature Coefficient resistors which replace, or otherwise modify, the IAT.

Can you also explain how the CTS and the IAT interact to effect the ECM, and how might performance or, more pertinently, economy be effected if
 the IAT values were modified but the CTS values remain unchanged? And what would happen if the CTS sensor voltage were modified but the IAT remain unchanged?

Thanks,

Tim
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:31 pm

That's all well and good if you're interested in all that stuff, but it's a lot simpler to look at a Silver Wings glovebox lids and generally if they're painted they're one of the early thirsty buggers, and if they're black plastic they're a later more fuel efficient model.
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rjdoles
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:34 pm

Cosmic Jumper, I spent a lot of time in the Honda motorcycle plant while it was in Marysville. The details of the operation of their fuel injection system was proprietary.

Having said that, what I believe those boxes do is trick the ECM into adjusting the Fuel/Air ratio into providing richer mixtures which could yield marginally better performance at the expense of fuel economy.

If you cheat the CTS, coolant temperature sensor, the Swing would stay in the cold F/A loop program. This is probably too rich once the engine warms up and although it may improve performance, it would adversely affect fuel economy.

Modifying the IAT intake air sensor would allow for a smaller change from the standard F/A ratio and would make more sense. The modified IAT signal tricks the ECM into thinking that the engine was ingesting colder air than is actually present. Colder air being denser would require additional fuel to approach stoich. The ECM would look in the warm table for that modified temperature rather than the actual temperature and deliver the greater amount of fuel that was specified there. If this black box was adjustable, you could adjust the amount of richness added above the unmodified amount.

These kinds of mods might be useful if you had modified the engine (camshaft, breathing, exhaust etc). On a stock engine, I doubt that these boxes would yield much of an improvement from the standard warm table map that Honda engineers have spent hundreds of hours mapping using a dyno and thousands of dollars worth of instrumentation.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:42 pm

Thank you again for another well explained lesson.

I have a follow up question. So if a parallel resistance were added to the IAT circuit (e.g. 2500 ohms) would that spoof the ECM into running leaner? I use noticeably more fuel when riding in the cold months than I do during the summer --even when riding the same circuit of roads.

Once the engine is warmed up (in winter) could I flip the spoof switch, adding in the resistance, and 'encourage' the engine to operate in "summer mode"?

Tim
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rjdoles
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:27 am

Cosmic Jumper, The greater fuel use in the winter months is because the engine, oil and coolant are colder when first started. The oil is more viscous and the engine has to provide more power to compensate. The engine has further to go to reach the warm table threshold temperature. The rise in engine temperature is also slower in colder weather. All these factors contribute to the engine being on the cold map longer. The engine is running richer which hurts your fuel economy.

Before I retired, I had a standard shift 02 Accord that I drove to work. It was a 3 mile trip on mostly city streets. I became aware of a single momentary hesitation/shudder on each trip. I came to realize that what I was experiencing was the engine changing over from the cold map to the warm map. I only noticed the hesitation if I happened to be in a lower gear and accelerating. In a car with an automatic transmission, I probably would never have noticed it at all.

In the winter, that hesitation didn't occur until I had driven nearly the whole three miles of stop and go traffic.

In the summer, I was only about a mile from home when it happened.

That car used more fuel during the winter which I attributed that our winter blend of gasoline and driving nearly the whole trip on the cold map.

I didn't do any freeway driving but denser cold air in the winter also increases wind resistance (drag). Wind resistance is the square of velocity and at freeway speeds, the denser cold air would could cause a noticeable increase in drag and a drop of a mpg or two.

I am not sure if you could do much better than the standard fuel maps for economy but there is no reason why you couldn't trick the ECM into running leaner.
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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:31 am

Thank you again Mr Doles.

Tim
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delivryboy
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:58 pm

Original Post:

"Are there any worthwhile specification changes in the Model years,which would make buying a later Model advisable,there are quite a few 02-04 used ones at attractive prices,around at the moment.

I don't quite know how to put the next question,but here goes.
I've never ridden a Scooter,so do larger wheel diameter scooters,have more stability?,i've got nothing to base this on,it's just a question."

Model FSC600
A=no ABS,
D=ABS
suffix AC= US-California
Later engines (late 2007 manufacture date)=better fuel mapping in electronic engine, better fuel economy.

As with all motorized vehicles, earlier models with lower miles may be a better value than a later model with higher miles. This model has been discontinued so parts will eventually go away. The plastics are especially susceptible. Push/pull on all the plastic parts and panels, are they loose, cracked, ill-fitting? Look under the belly, is it all scratched/broken? Look up from beneath, inside through openings, etc. Look for gunk and muck. And it goes without saying, check the oil. If it is new, can't tell much of the history, but older oil will smell sweet if any coolant at all is in it, or burnt if it overheated. Just basic things to think about to avoid the "new toy" blindness we all face.

Smaller tires on scooters
=bumpier ride, the smaller radius attacks bumps at more aggressive angle, can't "roll over" bumps as easily, falls into smaller holes ,
=tighter cornering, tendency to over steer as the smaller radius will cut into corner more,
=wear faster, less rubber circumference per mile,
=harder to access valve stem, large disk brake and CVT blocks access to rim,
=harder to find replacement, non standard tire size,
=less gyroscopic action, faster maneuvering because less mass spinning, but smaller tire means spins faster. Mass loss wins over centrifugal force

All in all, if you want to ride a big bike, you get big tires and they act differently than riding a small bike with small tires. Scooters ride bumpier but are more fun.

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Cosmic_Jumper
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PostSubject: Re: Model Year Updates/Changes ?   Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:04 pm

So would this be you introducing yourself to the forum?
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