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 16,000 Checkup Question

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Emeskay
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PostSubject: 16,000 Checkup Question   Sun 30 Aug 2009, 21:39

Hi all.

I took my scoot into my (relatively) local Honda dealer for the 16K check up and an oil change (while they were at it). I though I needed, among other things, a new belt. The only things they replaced were 2 spark plugs. The guy at the counter said that the belt didn't need replacing, only tightening. You only replace it if there are signs of wear. The total cost for the check-up and oil change, with plugs and oil/filter was $433.41.

Does that sound right to you? My husband doesn't think it is the kind of belt you can tighten, and that the specs call for a new belt. I'd really like to get some feedback on this, b/c we're getting the impression we were taken for a ride, and it wasn't on our own two wheels.

Thanks in advance.

Mandy
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fournbt
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Sun 30 Aug 2009, 21:45

My 1wing just turned 16000 miles and I am having the Honda dealer order me a OEM belt which cost 138 dollars and they will charge me one hour labor which is 70 dollars to put the belt on. That sound way to high to me. Oil, filter, spark plugs don't cost that much and I don't think you can adjust the belt.
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tankyuong
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Sun 30 Aug 2009, 22:04

Man they took you to the cleaners, what did the receipt entail?
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Sun 30 Aug 2009, 22:18

What you paid was way too much even if you had a belt installed. Including the price of the belt. You need a new belt at 16,000 miles. There has been a lot of discussion about how long a belt really lasts. Some say you can get several thousand miles over the recommended 16,000 miles. Probably true. But there was a post recently that showed a belt that exploded and convinced me that it is not worth taking a chance for a little money. The labor to inspect your belt should have been about the same to replace. I had my belt replaced at a dealer for $175.00. Oil, filter and spark plugs should not be anywhere near $250.00. I have done that myself, so I never paid for that service. Parts were about $60.00 purchased at local parts store.
Gary
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DickO
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Sun 30 Aug 2009, 22:54

Right. I just checked 'my' manual for drive belt replacement and nowhere does it specify any "tightening" of the belt. There just ain't no place to do that. The manual does specify checking the belt wear limit and changing the belt at 16,000 miles but as mentioned above, that is a subjective limit based on mutual owner experience. At any rate, I have to agree with everyone else; they really stuck it to you. I'd be protesting that bill. As one person asked, what does the detailed bill (receipt) say they did. Find out.
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Sun 30 Aug 2009, 23:53

Hi Mandy,
I did a 16k and a 32 k service myself. The belt is not adjustable, it's tension is automatically adjusted by the contra
spring. In my opinion is should be changed at the recommend interval of 16k and checked at 12k intervals. I'm the one who posted the picture of my belt disintegrating at 17k. My first one lasted 16 and still looked good. My second one was a third party belt, i would recommend a Honda replacement belt. Below is a link to the picture of what was left of my belt after 17k miles.

http://paulscooter.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=48133453
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Emeskay
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Mon 31 Aug 2009, 08:43


First of all, I want to thank everyone who responded to me so quickly. You are a bunch of really terrific people, and I am grateful to you for the help.

tankyuong wrote:
Man they took you to the cleaners, what did the receipt entail?

The receipt had a checklist, that showed what they looked at. They did the 16 K checklist, a rear differential oil change, and a regular oil change. I got two new spark plugs, some oil and an oil filter.

paul_scooter wrote:
I did a 16k and a 32 k service myself. The belt is not adjustable, it's tension is automatically adjusted by the contra spring. In my opinion is should be changed at the recommend interval of 16k and checked at 12k intervals. I'm the one who posted the picture of my belt disintegrating at 17k. My first one lasted 16 and still looked good. My second one was a third party belt, i would recommend a Honda replacement belt. Below is a link to the picture of what was left of my belt after 17k miles.

http://paulscooter.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=48133453

I remembered your post, Paul, and that's what really started me worrying about their failure to replace the belt.

DickO wrote:

Right. I just checked 'my' manual for drive belt replacement and nowhere does it specify any "tightening" of the belt. There just ain't no place to do that. The manual does specify checking the belt wear limit and changing the belt at 16,000 miles but as mentioned above, that is a subjective limit based on mutual owner experience.

That's what our reading of the manual said also. And since we specifically told them that we thought the belt needed replacing, they should have done that!


Opalsboy wrote:
What you paid was way too much even if you had a belt installed. Including the price of the belt. You need a new belt at 16,000 miles. There has been a lot of discussion about how long a belt really lasts. Some say you can get several thousand miles over the recommended 16,000 miles. Probably true. But there was a post recently that showed a belt that exploded and convinced me that it is not worth taking a chance for a little money. The labor to inspect your belt should have been about the same to replace. I had my belt replaced at a dealer for $175.00. Oil, filter and spark plugs should not be anywhere near $250.00. I have done that myself, so I never paid for that service. Parts were about $60.00 purchased at local parts store.

fournbt wrote:
My 1wing just turned 16000 miles and I am having the Honda dealer order me a OEM belt which cost 138 dollars and they will charge me one hour labor which is 70 dollars to put the belt on. That sound way to high to me. Oil, filter, spark plugs don't cost that much and I don't think you can adjust the belt.

Thanks, Gary and '4'. I'm getting more and more angry, as I read your responses. They really took me for a ride, and it wasn't on my scooter. We're going to call the main Honda customer service number, and get started on fixing this.
The worst part is that there are only two Honda dealerships within 100 miles of my house, and the other one is even worse!!!
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Freedomjerr
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Mon 31 Aug 2009, 08:49

Hi Mandy,

I would like to see the list of maintenance they did on your scooter. It sounds like they may have taken you for a big ride.
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Emeskay
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Mon 31 Aug 2009, 09:01

Freedomjerr wrote:
Hi Mandy,

I would like to see the list of maintenance they did on your scooter. It sounds like they may have taken you for a big ride.

I will scan it in tonight, and post the receipt tomorrow. Thank you!
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Miro
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Mon 31 Aug 2009, 10:27

What a rip-off!!! Probably $50 worth of parts and $370 worth of labor (that's 5-6 hours). Talk to them first before contacting Honda; this way you could get some money back.
On my cars, I never do "15K" etc service. I just look in the owner's manual to see what needs to be REPLACED and that is what I ask them to do. I do not pay hundreds of dollars for BS "inspections".
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Emeskay
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Mon 31 Aug 2009, 12:30

Hi Miro:

Miro wrote:
What a rip-off!!! Probably $50 worth of parts and $370 worth of labor (that's 5-6 hours). Talk to them first before contacting Honda; this way you could get some money back.

That's what we're going to do first. They are closed today. I'll let y'all know what they say.

Miro also wrote:
On my cars, I never do "15K" etc service. I just look in the owner's manual to see what needs to be REPLACED and that is what I ask them to do. I do not pay hundreds of dollars for BS "inspections".

That sounds like a really good idea--do you do that for your scooter as well? I will think about doing that in the future.

Has anyone else handled regular checkups this way for their Swing?

Thanks,

Mandy
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MikeO
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Mon 31 Aug 2009, 12:33

Tell them you have posted on this public forum.

It's worked for unscrupulous Piaggio dealers and also shows you have the backing of knowledgeable Silverwing owners.
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Emeskay
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Mon 31 Aug 2009, 12:58

MikeO wrote:
Tell them you have posted on this public forum.

It's worked for unscrupulous Piaggio dealers and also shows you have the backing of knowledgeable Silverwing owners.

Absolutely. To make it official, I'm talking about Atlantic Cycle & Power in White Plains, Maryland.

Thanks, Mike!
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Mon 31 Aug 2009, 14:56

MikeO wrote:
Tell them you have posted on this public forum.

It's worked for unscrupulous Piaggio dealers and also shows you have the backing of knowledgeable Silverwing owners.

Print out the thread from the forum.

If you cannot resolve successfully, then see if you can do the easily serviceable items yourself (or a friend) with the easy how-steps provided by the forum or a local non-Honda motorcycle shop.

BTW I replaced the OEM NGK plugs with the NGK Iridium CR8EHIX-9 for a little more than a dollar and change then original OEM NGK plugs ... the Iridium then do not need to be replaced anywhere near as much.

Emeskay wrote:
Absolutely. To make it official, I'm talking about Atlantic Cycle & Power in White Plains, Maryland.

When I visit, I may just have to stop by and quiz them on 16K service Razz
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Miro
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Mon 31 Aug 2009, 15:24

"That sounds like a really good idea--do you do that for your scooter as well? I will think about doing that in the future".

My SW only has 2000 ml so I have not done any major service yet. My first 600 ml service would have cost me a few hundred dollars. Instead, I did an oil change myself ($30 worth of parts) and that was all that is required for 600 ml service. When time comes for 16000 ml service or any other, I'll call around to see how much replacing of the belt would cost or any other standard procedures. Luckily I found the guy locally who works on scooters (he's got 8 scooters on his own - SWs, Burgmans, and Reflexes) and has any possible scooter parts and tools available. He is not only good but also very reasonable. Ex. for a brake light modulator and an additional strip of LED under the wing I paid $50 installed! He also figured out the way to convert headlights to HID; $120 for both low and high beam - installed! Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Mon 31 Aug 2009, 22:57

Mandy,

I have "Pictorials" on all of the things that you was supposed to have done. The spark plugs, final drive oil change, oil change, and also what they didn't do, a Pictorial for the belt change. I have changed my belt, and also have taken the variator off many times, and I have no idea where they would tighten the belt. It's crazy what they charged you for, IMHO. If you have a hard time getting to the Pictorials here you can get them at www.scootertrap.com . Just go to the Silver Wing section and then scroll down to the Step by Step Instructions. They are .pdf files and Matt, the owner, has put the pictorials on his site so others can buy the parts and do the work themselves.

But there isn't a place to tighten the belt at all. Everyone else has given you good advice here and I hope you can resolve this. Almost all Honda shops follow a manual on how long each item should take in labor so you might want to see what the manual says on how long the labor should take. The manual gives it in hours.

The final drive takes me about 15 mins, the spark plugs are about 30 mins, an oil change in about 20 minutes, and there is no tightening of the belt. So if I can do it in 1 hour a mechanic should not take any longer, although their labor rate is probably going to be more like 2 hours. Good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Tue 01 Sep 2009, 01:02

Actually 16,000 miles really isn't going to wear down the spark plugs either. I've had the same spark plugs in my '93 Goldwing 1500 for the past 50,000 miles. It still starts as quickly is it did new, the mileage is still the same as it was when the bike was new and after inspecting the plugs as I do every year or so the plugs still look fine. Not much rounding of the electrodes at all. The ignition system of the Silverwing is pretty much the same as the GW. I don't intend to change plugs in my SW for a long time. I'll check them every 8000 miles or so, but I expect them to last for a years yet. When spark plugs need attention it comes on pretty slowly, mileage starts to drop and starting gets slower and in the last stages the engine will miss occasionally at high power demands.
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Emeskay
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Tue 01 Sep 2009, 08:07

JeffR wrote:
Mandy,

I have "Pictorials" on all of the things that you was supposed to have done. The spark plugs, final drive oil change, oil change, and also what they didn't do, a Pictorial for the belt change. I have changed my belt, and also have taken the variator off many times, and I have no idea where they would tighten the belt. It's crazy what they charged you for, IMHO. If you have a hard time getting to the Pictorials here you can get them at www.scootertrap.com . Just go to the Silver Wing section and then scroll down to the Step by Step Instructions. They are .pdf files and Matt, the owner, has put the pictorials on his site so others can buy the parts and do the work themselves.

But there isn't a place to tighten the belt at all. Everyone else has given you good advice here and I hope you can resolve this. Almost all Honda shops follow a manual on how long each item should take in labor so you might want to see what the manual says on how long the labor should take. The manual gives it in hours.

The final drive takes me about 15 mins, the spark plugs are about 30 mins, an oil change in about 20 minutes, and there is no tightening of the belt. So if I can do it in 1 hour a mechanic should not take any longer, although their labor rate is probably going to be more like 2 hours. Good luck.

Thanks, Jeff. I will look at the instructions. How difficult is it take to change a belt? I am mechanically inclined, but not a mechanic. I can order one online and install it this weekend.
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Emeskay
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Tue 01 Sep 2009, 08:10

My husband called the main Honda customer service number last night, and told them about the dealer's failure to replace the belt. They were annoyed with the dealership, and are going to follow up with them. Also, they said that if there were any problems, Honda would be responsible. My husband pointed out that he was more worried about me getting hurt from a problem with the belt, than with the belt. And paying hospital bills wasn't anywhere near as good as preventing the problem.

Anyway, they're supposed to get back to him in a day or two. I'll let you know what happens.
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Emeskay
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Tue 01 Sep 2009, 08:12

exavid wrote:
Actually 16,000 miles really isn't going to wear down the spark plugs either. I've had the same spark plugs in my '93 Goldwing 1500 for the past 50,000 miles. It still starts as quickly is it did new, the mileage is still the same as it was when the bike was new and after inspecting the plugs as I do every year or so the plugs still look fine. Not much rounding of the electrodes at all. The ignition system of the Silverwing is pretty much the same as the GW. I don't intend to change plugs in my SW for a long time. I'll check them every 8000 miles or so, but I expect them to last for a years yet. When spark plugs need attention it comes on pretty slowly, mileage starts to drop and starting gets slower and in the last stages the engine will miss occasionally at high power demands.

Thanks, X. I know what you mean, but I'm really not knowledgeable enought to know when the spark plugs are running down, so I think I do what the service manual says. But next time, I'm buying the parts ahead of time and bringing them in with me, as suggested in this forum.
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Tue 01 Sep 2009, 08:59

Mandy... good news about the Honda folks wanting to help.
When you get ready to change the spark plugs again, get your husband a
glass of ice tea (or what ever he likes) ... a spark plug wrench and
have him look at the pictorial here on how to do that job. It is very
simple. Remove a screw or two and insert wrench and twist to remove.
Reverse steps to put new plugs in. Heck, have him get you the tea and you do the job. It is a whole lot simpler than creating a Sweet Vespa.
Changing the belt is a different story. Simple for some folks, but does require some special tools and know how.
Good luck on getting some relief on the service job you started this thread about.

Gary
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Miro
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Tue 01 Sep 2009, 09:40

exavid wrote:
Actually 16,000 miles really isn't going to wear down the spark plugs either. I've had the same spark plugs in my '93 Goldwing 1500 for the past 50,000 miles. It still starts as quickly is it did new, the mileage is still the same as it was when the bike was new and after inspecting the plugs as I do every year or so the plugs still look fine. Not much rounding of the electrodes at all. The ignition system of the Silverwing is pretty much the same as the GW. I don't intend to change plugs in my SW for a long time. I'll check them every 8000 miles or so, but I expect them to last for a years yet. When spark plugs need attention it comes on pretty slowly, mileage starts to drop and starting gets slower and in the last stages the engine will miss occasionally at high power demands.

In my opinion, considering the simplicity of the procedure and minimal cost of the spark plugs, it just makes sense to change spark plugs in intervals as described in owner's manual. Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Tue 01 Sep 2009, 11:31

Miro wrote:
In my opinion, considering the simplicity of the procedure and minimal cost of the spark plugs, it just makes sense to change spark plugs in intervals as described in owner's manual. Thanks.

From http://www.ngk.com/glossary.asp?kw=Iridium&manID=1&pt=1

Iridium is a precious metal that is 6 times harder and 8 times stronger
than platinum, it has a 1,200 degree (F) higher melting point than
platinum and conducts electricity better. This makes it possible to
create the finest wire center electrode ever.


From http://www.ngk.com/glossary.asp?kw=How+long+will+my+iridium+spark+plugs+last?&manID=1&pt=

How long will my iridium spark plugs last?

A traditional iridium plug such as a ZFR6FIX-11 has an iridium center electrode, however the ground electrode is the traditional nickel construction. The ground electrode will wear out first. The manufacturers of Irdium plugs are saying 40,000 to 60,000 miles.



Since the Iridium are 6-8 stronger and harder .... they last 6-8 times longer than the original plug. You can replace them more often ... though you would be wasting time and money.
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Emeskay
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Tue 01 Sep 2009, 14:05

Opalsboy wrote:
Mandy... good news about the Honda folks wanting to help.
When you get ready to change the spark plugs again, get your husband a
glass of ice tea (or what ever he likes) ... a spark plug wrench and
have him look at the pictorial here on how to do that job. It is very
simple. Remove a screw or two and insert wrench and twist to remove.
Reverse steps to put new plugs in. Heck, have him get you the tea and you do the job. It is a whole lot simpler than creating a Sweet Vespa.
Changing the belt is a different story. Simple for some folks, but does require some special tools and know how.
Good luck on getting some relief on the service job you started this thread about.

Gary

Thanks, Gary. I'll let you know what happens with Honda.

I think I might try to do the spark plugs myself nextime, while he's working on his bike, and that way I can get him to ok what I'm doing as I do it. But I'm good for now on that. Now, I have to go buy a belt and an air filter. Sounds like an internet job.

Mandy
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Emeskay
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Tue 01 Sep 2009, 14:07

honda_silver wrote:


From http://www.ngk.com/glossary.asp?kw=Iridium&manID=1&pt=1

Iridium is a precious metal that is 6 times harder and 8 times stronger
than platinum, it has a 1,200 degree (F) higher melting point than
platinum and conducts electricity better. This makes it possible to
create the finest wire center electrode ever.


From http://www.ngk.com/glossary.asp?kw=How+long+will+my+iridium+spark+plugs+last?&manID=1&pt=

How long will my iridium spark plugs last?

A traditional iridium plug such as a ZFR6FIX-11 has an iridium center electrode, however the ground electrode is the traditional nickel construction. The ground electrode will wear out first. The manufacturers of Irdium plugs are saying 40,000 to 60,000 miles.



Since the Iridium are 6-8 stronger and harder .... they last 6-8 times longer than the original plug. You can replace them more often ... though you would be wasting time and money.

So, I guess this means I should figure out what kind of plugs they put in, right?
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honda_silver
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Tue 01 Sep 2009, 14:13

Emeskay wrote:
Now, I have to go buy a belt and an air filter.

Have you investigated using the K&N Air Filter http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=HA-6002 .. they are cheaper on the internet.
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Opalsboy
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PostSubject: Air filter chang   Tue 01 Sep 2009, 14:37

Mandy... the air filter is kinda easy too... look at the pictorial here and decide. One piece of plastic to work off and a few screws (all identified in the illustrations) to remove. The K&N airfilter has a million mile guarantee (should last for two swings). It is washable and reusable. Cost between $60-$70....

Gary
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Wed 02 Sep 2009, 11:01

Hi all.

I have some really good news, regarding this mess.

Honda called us back, and told us that we could bring the scoot back in, and it would be taken care of. The husband didn't like that and told them so, and asked for the name of another place. After he hung up with them, "Tex" the service manager from Altantic Cycle & Power, the first place, called. Honda had told him we were angry and going elsewhere. To make a long story short, Tex offered to comp the labor on the belt and air filter, and put on new tires for half price. The husband bought me a pair of Metzelers, to match the ones he put on his RT.

So, I guess we won this round, dontcha think? Laughing And, it winds up that I don't have to any of the maintenance myself this time around.

Thanks to all of you, for all of your help!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Wed 02 Sep 2009, 11:03

I'm going to remember all of this, though, for next year, when I reach 32,000 miles. Wink
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Opalsboy
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Number of posts : 1295
Age : 73
Location : Rison, Arkansas
Points : 4667
Registration date : 2009-01-10

PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Wed 02 Sep 2009, 12:04

YYYIIIPPPEEEE!!!!! The good guys won.... good for you.

Gary
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masscoot
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Number of posts : 437
Location : Central New England
Points : 3565
Registration date : 2009-03-24

PostSubject: Re: 16,000 Checkup Question   Wed 02 Sep 2009, 13:04

Good news Mandy! But the real question is how many others have been a clueless victim by them. If I had a so called "trained" service person tell me they checked my belt, but did not replace instead they just adjusted it, my response to them would be "put down those tools and back away from my bike slowly"!!! Just goes to show you that in this day and age we all must be educated comsumers. It also helps to have access to all the information, the real cut and dry truth through the great forums like this one and others! They should know by now that we know our bikes and should not try any crap with us. I am so leery to bring my bike to the dealer for anything, they get this scared look in their eye that scares me even more Shocked Good deal on the tires but they should have comp'ed them completely for straight out lying to you!

Best of Luck and Ride Safe!
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