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 Weight and mpg modifications

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LDB
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PostSubject: Weight and mpg modifications   Mon 14 Jul 2014, 12:12

Less weight and more mpg are the only areas where my SW could be improved. It performs excellently as is. Thanks to lots of helpful people here I know (or think I do) a few things.

Going to a Leo Vince exhaust will drop around 10 pounds.

Using a Power Commander can map in better mpg.

And a few more questions. Are sliders/rollers (not sure what ours are called) just for performance or are there versions that are for mpg?

What else is good for improving fuel economy?
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dspevack
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Mon 14 Jul 2014, 13:52

Changing the weights in the variator changes the equivalent of gearing on a regular motorcycle.
Different people have had good luck in the MPG department with Dr. Pully  sliders, and I'm sure they will chime in.

You can also switch to K&N Filters.

Lastly you can try a sport bike windshield. The Silverwing is not so aerodynamic.
I put my bike on a dyno at a tuning center.
I was able to go 6 mph faster on the dyno because of no wind resistance.


Other ways to improve mileage include personally dropping weight, carrying less crap in the boot,
and leaving your backseater at home.

But every other hardware change that has been mentioned on the board is anecdotal for mileage improvements. Nothing consistent.


Don't recall what Silverwing wheels are made of, or if there are aftermarket lighter weight wheels that will fit.

Somebody will soon suggest helium in your tires but that just tells you someone likes you enough to prank you.

Dan
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tinman
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Mon 14 Jul 2014, 15:39

When I ran the rollers my mpg was 60 mpg to 66 mpg depending on the weather ,cold wind and terrain is a big factor,riding at 100 klph with my 24 gram slider the best was 72 mpg at 90 to 95 klph but the average was 66mpg.with the trike kit my average is 62 mpg as low as 56 mpg at 110 to 120 klph. With my pillion at 95 klph the average is 62 to 64 mpg.
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LDB
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Mon 14 Jul 2014, 17:32

I definitely need to lose weight but at 57 it isn't happening. My better half can't be in the sun due to skin cancer susceptibility so I'm always solo. I figured the L.V. was iffy for mpg improvement but would be good for several pounds. After all the hydroplaning with the helium in the car tires I've sworn off that stuff. Smile
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kenvb
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Mon 14 Jul 2014, 22:47

good friend of mine ,( Brain surgeon Part Time) , tryed Helium in his Honda Quad. and drove directly in to local river ,which doesnt run that fast or deep. maybe 4 ft Quad flipped over. he swan to shore. Quad floated downstream with all 4 tires up ?
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Mon 14 Jul 2014, 22:56

tinman wrote:
with my 24 gram slider the best was 72 mpg at 90 to 95 klph

That must be with a Canadian gallon (4.546L). Best me and my wife have been able to get from a US gallon (3.79L) is low 50's.

Having come from much heavier bikes, the Silver Wing feels like a "lightweight" to me. Low CG, easy handling, steering fairly neutral in the twisties, have to ride pretty hard to drag anything, and so far the only thing that hits is the centerstand lever in left turns. Cranked the rear springs up to "5" and that fixed the problem with the centerstand throwing sparks. Overall can't complain.

I checked rpm again road speed on both of our bikes the other day and wrote it down. Running at constant speed on level pavement shows that with new belts and stock clutches and rollers both our bikes appear to be in high ratio at 20 mph where they clock 2,800 rpm. Every 200 rpm yields 5 mph increase in indicated speed. Heavy (full) throttle off the line gets me very close to peak torque almost immediately and the CVT holds it there until it starts to climb at about 35 mph. Full throttle at 55-60 mph gets me a decent downshift and there's few production cars that can keep up with it.

Don't really see how you can balance fuel economy vs performance much better because I think 50 mpg, or thereabouts, is pretty darned good for an almost 600lb bike. We didn't really buy our Silver Wings for fuel mileage. We got them because they're fun to ride and really comfortable. And really cool. Just seen a dude at the gas station the other day that was fueling a ST1300. He looks at my SWing and says "those are great for tooling around town". I says, "yah.....my wife and I just got done making a lap around Lake Superior on 'em........1,488 miles........."

Not a word from the ST1300 dude. The look said it all.
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tankyuong
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Tue 15 Jul 2014, 14:52

get rid of the 10# backrest
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dspevack
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Wed 16 Jul 2014, 06:56

The conversation about Riding Lake Superior has been moved to its own topic in "Rides and stories"
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bandito2
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Wed 16 Jul 2014, 19:23

LDB wrote:
Less weight and more mpg are the only areas where my SW could be improved. It performs excellently as is. Thanks to lots of helpful people here I know (or think I do) a few things.

Going to a Leo Vince exhaust will drop around 10 pounds.

Using a Power Commander can map in better mpg.

And a few more questions. Are sliders/rollers (not sure what ours are called) just for performance or are there versions that are for mpg?

What else is good for improving fuel economy?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


How about something like this?
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/2014-streamliners/2014-Alan-Smith-2nd-Ninja-p69b.html

I am doing a Vetter streamlined fairing for my 2007 Honda 250cc Reflex. Seriously thinking of doing
a similar thing to my 2006 Silverwing but truncating the tail fin so that it is not so long. There are
folks in the motorcycles section of forums on the ecomodder site that are doing a thing like that
and calling it an AERO-TRUNK.
http://ecomodder.com/
Going full on streamline mods + some other mods (taller gearing, Power Commander variants, etc)
for gas powered motorcycles, diesel bikes and electric bikes have shown improvements nearing double
the  unmodified version's fuel economy.

However, I'm not so sure our bikes with their CVT transmissions and automatic/centrifugal clutches
will do quite that well since they will not allow the bike to coast freely. (except when it finally slows
to about 15 mph before the clutch automatically disengages.) Even so, Craig Vetter manages to get
a little over 100 mpg with his modified 244cc Honda Helix scooter.

Riding sanely/moderately with my Silverwing I get mpg in the upper 50s/low 60s. Going with full on
streamlining I would expect economy in the mid 70 to at least mid 80 mpg range. (but may actually
get better results.)

The wind resistance has quite a large effect on fuel economy. Streamlining that is seriously applied
and effective would have the largest effect on improving fuel economy at highway speeds. Losing
weight has mostly the best effect on acceleration. Trying to push through the air above about 50
mph (without streamlining) is what makes us use so much more fuel.
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dspevack
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Wed 16 Jul 2014, 22:49

This is an exercise in what is possible.
But the real world is about enjoying the ride on a daily basis
It appears to severely limit comfort and convenience.

Further, how much do these mods weigh, compared to the original bodywork?

I wouldn't do this to my bike if it doubled my fuel economy.
I'd lose too much in aesthetics and pride in my beautiful bike.

Also keep in mind the problem with all custom work is you can't just buy replacement parts.
If you take a look at my bike in my album, I installed a full custom faring.
Not for fuel economy, but for looks.  I wanted my bike to be unique.
When it took a car door to the faring, there went all my hard work.

10 gallons (USA) @ 3.50/gal = $35. @ 50 mpg = 500 miles
10 gallons (USA) @ 3.50/gal = $35. @ 70 mpg = 700 miles
200 miles (difference) @ 50 mpg = 4 gallons=$14.00 savings per 700 miles.

How many miles would you need to ride for this mod to make financial sense?
Vetter high mileage faring kit is $1350   $1350/$14=96.42 x 700miles=67,500 miles,
and that's just to brake even on the Kit.
How many hours to put it on the bike?  What is your hourly wage?
It just doesn't add up to do it for financial gain.

http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/high%20mileage%20fairing.html#anchor
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LDB
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Thu 17 Jul 2014, 01:14

I'm not ready to go as extreme as the Vetter kits but they are interesting. I just want to take off any unneeded weight and if there are reasonable mods that will improve mpg without hurting performance I want to make those also. I think the L.V. and PC are good suspects at least.
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Thu 17 Jul 2014, 11:09

bandito2 wrote:
Trying to push through the air above about 50
mph (without streamlining) is what makes us use so much more fuel.

I think the fact that belt drives are only about 85% efficient has an effect too.

Realistically though, the Silver Wing is almost 600 lbs wet. Any 600 lb motorcycle that can make 50 mpg is doing good. The range on the Silver Wing is about ideal for touring. I used to sit in the saddle for 300 miles on the ST and it was too much. In my old age I'm ready to get off and stretch my legs a bit at 150 miles anyway. And whether it costs $10 bucks to fill up vs $9.50 because the bike gets a bit better fuel mileage is no biggie to me.

There's always things you can do to squeeze more power, or squeeze more fuel mileage out of a bike. But is it worth it? For touring, the comfort and room to change foot position, low CG and good handling, and relatively stable in crosswinds was the strong points for me. It is every bit the tourer that my ST1100 was, is much quieter with less buffeting behind the windscreen, and the fuel mileage is about the same, or a little better. So I'm happy with it.
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sharker
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Thu 17 Jul 2014, 11:18

Seems to me that riding around just to check fuel economy inflates your gas bill by whatever distance you cover. Park the scooter, open a beer and marvel at the savings. /s
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tankyuong
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Thu 17 Jul 2014, 12:28

I wonder what a naked bike nets in mileage
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Thu 17 Jul 2014, 13:17

tankyuong wrote:
I wonder what a naked bike nets in mileage

I wonder if John Grinsel's fuel mileage is affected by his running commando style.
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Thu 17 Jul 2014, 15:47

Up until fifteen years ago when I retired from the automotive service business fuel economy was the big concern. Most of it is in the right foot or in the right hand.
I would explain to them the function of the torque converter in a automatic transmission.
If you accelerate moderately and let the converter ketch up you can feel the vehicle accelerate and pick up speed without increasing throttle pressure and it will also shift up faster. Now you can not have your cake and eat it too. The S/W transmission will also do approximately the same thing. On our long rides 4-5 k miles with a fully loaded S/W I will consistently be in the 50-55mpg at 65-68 GPS mph. Over 65-70mph It is a totally different story. Be a turtle and not a rabbit for the long haul. Howard
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Thu 17 Jul 2014, 22:46

NWSSC wrote:
Up until fifteen years ago when I retired from the automotive service business fuel economy was the big concern. Most of it is in the right foot or in the right hand.

That is very correct.

This winter when it's too cold to do anything else I am inclined to see if I can get some dyno time at an independent motorcycle shop not too far from us. They run mostly Harleys on their dyno after putting in stroker cranks and big jugs with lumpy cams. But I know the guy fairly well and he'd let me run my SWing on it too.

I would be inclined to try slightly heavier rollers in the variator. My feeling is that significant fuel economy is lost in the Silver Wing in around town riding because the CVT runs the engine at way higher rpm that I would run at on a bike with a manually shifted transmission. The torque sensor (or rear pulley) works very well on both mine and my wife's bikes and downshifts the CVT readily under heavy throttle. So I'm not concerned with acceleration prowess, but more with reducing volumetric consumption per turn of the rear wheel.

The one thing that concerns me about that is that when cold on fast idle the SWing's clutch is just below engagement speed. Putting in heavier rollers could cause the variator to close a bit and engage the clutch when the engine is at fast idle. I'd have to try it and compare the results on the dyno to know if it makes any real difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Fri 18 Jul 2014, 00:00

Contrary to the popular opinion. one of the first things I did to my 06 S/W was to replace the stock rollers with heaver unites.The main reason was to have the transmission hook-up as quick as possible.This along with slightly increasing the throttle on start up,with the left brake lever slightly applied, engages the transmission (it is all about timing) faster and holds the engine rpm's down. Riding in this manner just gives me a better feeling of the transmission operation.
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Fri 18 Jul 2014, 08:44

NWSSC wrote:
Contrary to the popular opinion. one of the first things I did to my 06 S/W was to replace the stock rollers with heaver unites.

What weight rollers, or sliders, are you using, and where did you get them?

Tim
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Fri 18 Jul 2014, 09:38

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
What weight rollers, or sliders, are you using, and where did you get them?

I'd be interested in finding that out too. I've ran mine with the cover off the CVT while on the side stand. There is some lag from clutch engagement to when the variator starts to shift up. But not a lot. Heavier rollers might cause engagement and shiftup to happen simultaneously, which increases strain on the belt too. But being the power output is quite low at that point, it probably wouldn't be significant. It would be fun to try.

My Chinese scooter engages the clutch and shifts up almost simultaneous. And the little GY6 Honda clone in it runs at much lower rpm around town than the SWing does. Riding the SWing around town sort of reminds me of riding a shifty bike in 2nd gear all the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Fri 18 Jul 2014, 17:06

Sorry for the delay in responding.The source is no longer in business for the weights.I wish now that I would have bought several sets.There is no evidence of belt strain or any other concerns at this time except for the bearing noise and that I contribute to the extra weight and the many long distant rides. I will respond later on what I find out about disassembling of the transmission and the bearing that is bad. Howard
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Fri 18 Jul 2014, 17:58

NWSSC wrote:
Sorry for the delay in responding.The source is no longer in business for the weights.I wish now that I would have bought several sets.There is no evidence of belt strain or any other concerns at this time except for the bearing noise and that I contribute to the extra weight  and the many long distant rides. I will respond later on what I find out about disassembling of the transmission and the bearing that is bad.   Howard

Ok, so that source is no longer in business, but what brand and what weight rollers or sliders are you using?

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Fri 18 Jul 2014, 19:48

I had a winding bearing noise coming from the driven clutch when my swing had 10 k kl on it. Turned out when I pulled out the  clutch, there is a small needle bearing on the inside that was not properly grease from factory . I would look there before dismantling the clutch  bell.
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Fri 18 Jul 2014, 22:18

I did a little bit of searching and I can't find 28x20-29 or 28x20-30 rollers at any scooter parts sites.
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Fri 18 Jul 2014, 23:09

You might try BuggyPartsNW.com. They may be able to special order heavier weights from Dr Pulley. I wouldn't go to the expense of ordering 29gm weights -you're just not going to see any change. I would order 30gm or slightly heavier. Also, I would not order roller weights but sliding weights. The value of sliders over rollers is well documented here.
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Fri 18 Jul 2014, 23:19

I was hoping to find some cheap Chinese ones on a site someplace just to try. But they evidently don't make them in that size.
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Sat 19 Jul 2014, 00:07

Are there none made in the U.S.A.?
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Chris Olson
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Sat 19 Jul 2014, 01:36

LDB wrote:
Are there none made in the U.S.A.?

I didn't think anything was made in the USA anymore  affraid 
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Sat 19 Jul 2014, 11:28

I did first long trip yesterday.  235 kms when fuel gauge started flashing, averaged 115 kph.I am 200 lbs. had the trunk full of baking for Mom  and return trip was full of coke ? yup,  bad habit..my coke a day.  my 1500 Gold Wing would go 300 kms to a 5 gallon tank, so this isnt bad for little 600 doing 6000 RPM all day. only disike is all the wind in my face, I wear a open face helmet with flip down shield.  hopefully the new Air Flow Windshield will help , hate to start wearing a full face helmet..heres pic of my SW on lawn at the farm near Barrhead,Aberta .

                                                 


tryed a chinese  head set called Climder C3   with FM radio and blue tooth for my cell  couldnt hear it after 50 kph.., sending it back.  any one using a head set for radio? recommendations.
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Sat 19 Jul 2014, 15:10

Ken,

It seems you got very good mpg's if you could go 235 kms before it started flashing. 115 kph is approx 71 mph so that isn't too bad. I'm not sure what if this was gps speed or indicted but it's still not too bad. You should do something about your "coke" habit though.  Laughing 
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PostSubject: Re: Weight and mpg modifications   Sat 19 Jul 2014, 15:58

Chris Olson wrote:
I was hoping to find some cheap Chinese ones on a site someplace just to try.  But they evidently don't make them in that size.
The weights from Dr Pulley are made in China but they are far from cheap Chinese crap. They are in my opinion better quality than the OEM rollers. The word crap was my words not yours.  Wink 
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