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 Changing oil on your S/W

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NWSSC
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PostSubject: Changing oil on your S/W   Mon 03 Feb 2014, 19:42

To avoid from getting your hand in used (hot)engine oil I cover my oil drain pan with screen material (your friendly hardware man calls it hardware cloth)You can use the seize of your choice from 1/4 to 1/2 inch.Cut a piece large enough to cover the pan and forming it down on all sides to hold it in place.Be careful the edges can be sharp.It can stay on indefinitely or be removed.This will prevent the drain plug, strainer screen and spring from falling in to the old hot oil.You can also let the oil filter rest here for a while to drain. Remember not to over tighten the drain plug. It seals on the "o"ring and is not a tapered plug.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Mon 03 Feb 2014, 19:54

Aluminum screening works really well too.
I just use neoprene gloves. If the strainer, spring, and drain plug fall into the collection pan it's no big deal.
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WingMan02
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Mon 03 Feb 2014, 21:17

I just use pliers to extract the drain plug, screen, and spring from the used hot oil.  My problem is removing the drain plug for the case without getting burnt by the hot splashing oil.  Any Ideas?
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Mon 03 Feb 2014, 21:36

On the 6th day mine finally quit dripping oil.Yes a 6 day and 10 hour oil change.After putting a block under the center stand on both sides I thought all the oil was drained.Nope!Put on side stand and drip drip drip.Leaned it to the right and oil flowed out more.Back on center stand and more drips.Did every thing but jack up the front while waiting on a new drain cap....It was so tight it broke taking off.The thread were still in the case,used my finger to spin the threads out.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Mon 03 Feb 2014, 22:53

WingMan02 wrote:
I just use pliers to extract the drain plug, screen, and spring from the used hot oil.  My problem is removing the drain plug for the case without getting burnt by the hot splashing oil.  Any Ideas?

I use disposable latex or nitrile gloves much like bigbird mentions above. Protects your hands from the hot oil splashing and the heat (albeit only briefly). Does the job though and is cheap.
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WingMan02
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Mon 03 Feb 2014, 23:10

GHM-PM wrote:
WingMan02 wrote:
I just use pliers to extract the drain plug, screen, and spring from the used hot oil.  My problem is removing the drain plug for the case without getting burnt by the hot splashing oil.  Any Ideas?

I use disposable latex or nitrile gloves much like bigbird mentions above.  Protects your hands from the hot oil splashing and the heat (albeit only briefly).  Does the job though and is cheap.

Thanks Glenn. I will try on my next oil change.
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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Wed 05 Feb 2014, 10:02

You'd think that Honda would have found a fix by now for the crappy tappit that is the oil drain. It is so flimsy and easy to overtorque that only a person with prior experience is likely to be careful about it. My experience was similar to Mudnman. Cracks right around but the thread stayed in place and all came out in one piece, but needed to replace with new tappit. I only handtightened the new one; and no leaks.
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Wed 05 Feb 2014, 11:44

cotetoi wrote:
I only handtightened the new one; and no leaks.

You didn't use a wrench, or ratchet and socket? Seriously?

For others reading this, always use some sort of tool to tighten your drain plug. One cannot possibly put enough torque on the plug by hand to keep it from loosening and falling out due to vibration.
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Meldrew
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Wed 05 Feb 2014, 12:38

...and if the drain plug loosens it starts to spill oil oil out all over your back tyre you'll lose traction and you'll probably crash, then if the drain plug drops out it'll dump the remaining oil out onto the road and tyre and you will crash, and your engine as is screwed too, ...and if you live to tell the tale, you'll spend a long time in a lot of pain wishing you hadn't been so stupid.


Last edited by Meldrew on Wed 05 Feb 2014, 14:07; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : I'm a perfectionist!)
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Old Limey
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Wed 05 Feb 2014, 12:42

I always tighten the Oil Filter by hand, but as Bigbird and Meldrew say the drain plug definatey needs a socket, spanner or wrench. Smile 
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Wed 05 Feb 2014, 15:58

I apply A gas fitter liquid teflon on the rain plug and flange I hand tight the plug till seated ,then hold my 6 point socket with one hand then tap the ratchet with the other hand and lightly tap to seat .I remove the same way in reverse . It work's for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Wed 05 Feb 2014, 16:39

Wouldn't it be nice if Honda had coated that cockamamie crankcase skid plate with Teflon so that those annoying oil-change splashes would run off quickly rather than collect there then take a couple of days to drip off.

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Wed 05 Feb 2014, 18:02

In my 40+ years in the automotive service industry I found them (automotive industry) very reluctant ( here and abroad) to heed any suggestion that is made.First you have to deal with the engineers, finance people and finally the legal department.They have a litany of reasons for making and not making any change. Usually it is all about money and being sued,also money. When a serious electrical concern was discovered in a all new 1984 product the first person to call back was a corporate lawyer. He new the law but not the vehicles one end from the other. They made the suggested change and avoided law suites.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Wed 05 Feb 2014, 18:37

The proper tool to install the plug is a torque wrench. Seriously, if you don't own a torque wrench you probably shouldn't be working on aluminum engines, not even for oil changes.

It's also not a tappet. It very well may also be used as an inspection cover on something to view a tappet in the valve train, and thus gets called a tappet sometimes by Honda (that's the shortened name, but the long name is "Cap, tappet adjusting hole" - For it's use like this, look at some quads: http://www.bike-parts-honda.com/pieces-honda-detail-4484-13HN1X11-TRX400EX4-2004-E__0100-FOURTRAX+SPORT+400.html . But it isn't the tappet! Some Honda sites label it a tappet, but it's definitely not a tappet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tappet

Anytime I tighten a bolt into an expensive Aluminum engine block, I know too much torque is going to cost me money. So I look up the torque value and use a torque wrench. It's cheaper. Same thing if the fastener is itself aluminum! But even on steel you probably should do it right. They give you a torque value for a reason!
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Wed 05 Feb 2014, 19:03

Honda uses that stupid tappet cap for oil drain plugs because they had hundreds of thousands (literally) of them made back in the 80's-90's to serve as as  just that, the cover for the screw and locknut valve adjustment. They were used on many single cylinder motorcycle engines that Honda made back in the day. They are light and flimsy, and cost literally nothing to manufacture. They probably had tens of thousands of them as excess inventory, so they were used on our Silverwing. I have never seen as flimsy an oil drain plug on any other internal combustion engine. With the limited thread depth and short head height, they were never manufactured to be used as an oil sump drain plug. It's a case of saving money and cheaping out. Shame on Honda for that mistake.

Post edited now that I found the exact cross reverence for the part #:

http://www.bike-parts-honda.com/microfiches-recherche_piece-12361-KK0-000.html


Last edited by bigbird on Wed 05 Feb 2014, 22:23; edited 2 times in total
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Mudnman
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Wed 05 Feb 2014, 19:42

I ordered 8 off ebay and they were too small,off a 750 cb
Then found one at a dealer,$20 sunny 
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bigbird
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Wed 05 Feb 2014, 22:18

Here's a cross reference list. Lots to choose from.

http://www.bike-parts-honda.com/microfiches-recherche_piece-12361-KK0-000.html
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cotetoi
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Thu 06 Feb 2014, 11:27

Sorry, guys. My mistake: I was talking about the oil filter, not the oil drain. I did use a wrench on it, but not overly hard. The previous owner got all service done by a Honda tech, but not at the shop. So far I have come across the overtightened oil drain, and a stripped bolt that holds the passenger footrest on the left side. I hope those two were the only surprises: it's a 2005 with 4,000 km when I got it.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Thu 06 Feb 2014, 12:44

Quote :
EDIT So far I have come across the overtightened oil drain, and a stripped bolt that holds the passenger footrest on the left side. I hope those two were the only surprises: it's a 2005 with 4,000 km when I got it.

It shouldn't be all that difficult to locate a tap to chase the threads on that foot rest fixed nut. Or to order a new bolt if that is buggered up as well. That kind of stuff happens when impact guns & power tools are used. Curiously for most of the work I do on my S/W I use a 1/4" drive socket set.

And given that overtightened oil drain plug, I would be sure to have a spare for that on hand too.

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Thu 06 Feb 2014, 13:04

If you experience the oil drain plug head coming off either removing or tightening do not panic.The threads usually can be removed without difficulty. Again the plug is not a tapered fit but seals on the "O" ring ie there is really no tension on the threads.I have removed them from other owners S/W.
I do no feel that Honda uses this design because of an over stock (they like just in time delivery) but because of the cost in changing the casting and machining process.Although they like to take credit for on time delivery this idea came from the building of the Empire State building and they just carried it to another industry.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Thu 06 Feb 2014, 15:14

NWSSC wrote:

I do no feel that Honda uses this design because of an over stock (they like just in time delivery) but because of the cost in changing the casting and machining process.Although they like to take credit for on time delivery this idea came from the building of the Empire State building and they just carried it to another industry.
 
WT*??????
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Thu 06 Feb 2014, 17:36

+1
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Thu 06 Feb 2014, 20:45

I'm amazed no one makes an aftermarket replacement for the drain plug
(At least I have not been able to find one)
Reminds me of the oil filter cover bolt on my CB550k .
I replaced  it with an aftermarket replacement that was much better designed for the task
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Thu 06 Feb 2014, 22:42

hotwings wrote:
NWSSC wrote:

I do no feel that Honda uses this design because of an over stock (they like just in time delivery) but because of the cost in changing the casting and machining process.Although they like to take credit for on time delivery this idea came from the building of the Empire State building and they just carried it to another industry.
 
WT*??????

I think someone's (to borrow a word) "circumlocuting" again...  Rolling Eyes Shocked Twisted Evil 
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Fri 07 Feb 2014, 07:51

I also do not think Honda's choice of drain plug is due to "overstock". Not sure of the logic though. However, I changed the oil in my grandson's Kymco Like 200i and it uses a nearly identical system, tappet cover, spring, screen etc. There must be a purpose for all this!!!  bounce 
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Fri 07 Feb 2014, 10:49

GHM-PM wrote:
I also do not think Honda's choice of drain plug is due to "overstock".  Not sure of the logic though.   

It seems a tappet cover was too easy a part to source for a sump plug drain, when a more solidly built plug would have eliminated any chances of the plug self-destroying. As I've stated before, I have never seen an oil drain plug so flimsily manufactured and poorly designed. It seems Honda wants an owner to round off the shoulders of the bolt by using a 12 point wrench or socket, or if you use the correct 6 point tool, over-tighten the bolt to the point of ripping the threads out of the bolt. If they had used a hex head and made it a few millimetres taller, all problems would disappear. Then if you followed the correct torque application, no one would ever have a problem when changing their oil.
The overstock business, I also really doubt that was the reason. But economics of some sort had to come into play when the engine was designed and first built in 2001.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Fri 07 Feb 2014, 12:57

There's an auction on eBay right now for this tappet cap, Honda part #12361-kk0-000. In the description there is a lengthy list of other applications for it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-XR250-XR400-CH150-XR200-CH125-TRX400-CYLINDER-HEAD-VALVE-TAPPET-CAP-84-14-/251444790342?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a8b470446&vxp=mtr

Looks like this bad design is widespread through several models.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Fri 07 Feb 2014, 13:45

Consider the thought that if Honda made that oil plug from much stronger material then it would probably result in stripped threads in the crankcase rather than only a damaged oil plug (tappet cover).
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Fri 07 Feb 2014, 14:54

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:
Consider the thought that if Honda made that oil plug from much stronger material then it would probably result in stripped threads in the crankcase rather than only a damaged oil plug (tappet cover).

My Helix has a similar, but much stronger cap on the right crankcase for access to the oil pump screen. The case around it is pretty reinforced. Been riding/working on Helixes for 23 years and have never seen stripped threads in the case yet. Seen plenty of rounded off caps due to using improper sockets though.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Fri 07 Feb 2014, 17:09

sctr199 wrote:
There's an auction on eBay right now for this tappet cap, Honda part #12361-kk0-000. In the description there is a lengthy list of other applications for it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-XR250-XR400-CH150-XR200-CH125-TRX400-CYLINDER-HEAD-VALVE-TAPPET-CAP-84-14-/251444790342?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a8b470446&vxp=mtr

Looks like this bad design is widespread through several models.

I would support your local Honda dealer. I just ordered a spare plug with o-ring for 24.06 including tax.  A lot less than the one on ebay, and mine will be new.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Fri 07 Feb 2014, 17:18

Your dealer must drink top shelf.Mine was 22.14.maybe you bought it in Nashville Tn the highest taxed place in the states 9.5 0/0...I think he was saying how many scoots the cap fits and not pay almost retail for used parts.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Fri 07 Feb 2014, 17:25

Mudnman wrote:
Your dealer must drink top shelf.Mine was 22.14.maybe you bought it in Nashville Tn the highest taxed place in the states 9.5 0/0...I think he was saying how many scoots the cap fits and not pay almost retail for used parts.

That was my intent. No way would I buy a used one. Actually, I'm glad I'm not the first to bring up ordering a spare to carry on the bike just for insurance.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Fri 07 Feb 2014, 19:22

I've had a spare sitting on my Swing parts shelf in the basement since before I did my first oil change back in 2010.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Mon 10 Feb 2014, 15:32

Cosmic_Jumper, the lower bolt on the left footrest is still okay, threads look good. It seems to thread in okay and in the last few mm's it seems to lose grip and just turns loosely. I think the threads on the frame are gone. Would tapping it again fix the problem or would I need to replace the nut on the frame ?
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Mon 10 Feb 2014, 15:48

Just a suggestion. You might take the foot rest off,find a bolt the same seize and thread pitch and see if it will hold without the foot rest.You might have to put a few washers on the bolt in case it is not threaded all the way down. Also if your original bolt does not hold well when you tighten it all the way down, chances are the threads are puled toward the head of the bolt.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Mon 10 Feb 2014, 16:55

cotetoi wrote:
Cosmic_Jumper, the lower bolt on the left footrest is still okay, threads  look good. It seems to thread in okay and in the last few mm's it seems to lose grip and just turns loosely. I think the threads on the frame are gone. Would tapping it again fix the problem or would I need to replace the nut on the frame ?

Have you tried one of the other foot rest bolts on that nut WITH the footrest off? That would certainly confirm whether the problem was with the nut or the bolt.

If it is the nut than replacing it probably isn't practical because it is a frame mounted captive nut. In that case you would be better off buying a tap and chasing the threads in that nut.

You could most probably get a replacement captive nut from Fastenal cheap enough, but the shipping charges would probably cost more than the cost of the correct size tap.

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Mon 10 Feb 2014, 19:36

The reason for not suggestion to use the foot bolt from the other side was to eliminate the possibility of damage to that bolt and ending up with two problems.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Mon 10 Feb 2014, 22:49

I will have to have a real close look when the bike is out of storage. As far as I can remember, the bolt threads just fine till the end and then it just spins. I will give the tap a try to see if it corrects it.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Tue 11 Feb 2014, 14:43

There is 2 different length bolts . Is it possible the longer bolt was fitted in the wrong place ? Try reversing the bolt position . Measure the bolt shoulder if they are the same length to the head,to the where the threads starts.It could be a senior moment. scratch scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Tue 11 Feb 2014, 15:14

Don't overtighten and the oil drain plug should last a lifetime!
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Thu 27 Feb 2014, 02:07


Have you guys ever though of this.. I just bought a silver wing and hear all the stories.. I've been a mechanic for 20years.. sometimes we stick this down the dip stick hole and suck the oil out...
then Smile  just change the filter by hand...
One quick question this is my first bike.. is there a filler neck on these bikes or do you just fill it through the dip stick hole??? cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Thu 27 Feb 2014, 06:23

The oil is added through the dipstick hole. I would drain the oil. It's not that hard with the proper tools.
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jmaslak
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Thu 27 Feb 2014, 09:40

Agreed on changing the oil, not pumping it out.

I have a theory about some of these stripped plugs...the theory is that some may be explained by someone turning the plug the wrong way to loosen it. If you use a torque wrench to install it, and you aren't using an utter garbage socket (even a good 12 point shouldn't ruin it, although I agree with everyone who says to use a 6 point socket) to do so, I don't really see how you would break it. But I think sometimes people accidentally turn it the wrong way, find it tight, and then apply even more force...and that weakens and/or breaks the plug. Alternatively, I think others aren't using a torque wrench to install the plug, and are over-tightening.
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PostSubject: Re: Changing oil on your S/W   Fri 28 Feb 2014, 01:43

Not to degrade any one but I think some of the basic points on changing your own oil have either been beaten to death or left out.First the drain plug is not a tapered fit but seals on the 'O' ring.Although some engines can use the siphoned method I have only used this method on marine engines where space is some times limited. Always remember to run the engine for a minute or two, shut it off wait a minute and recheck the oil level with out turning the gauge in,as per Honda.
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Changing oil on your S/W
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